I received preliminary info in the post from Bonners Music Superstore this morning

In brief the letter declares the following :

9 brand new SA voices including clarinet harmonica and saxophone , 2 extra buttons next to mod wheel for controlling SA effects (easier than using footswitch)

New piano from the latest Clavinova flagship

100 new rhythms , plus styles from previous instruments ALL re-programmed

New orchestral styles without drums

"doubling in capacity of sound generator" made the instrument sounds more stunning than ever at demo at Farankfurt music fair (presented by Martin Harris)

Oh yes price - estimated £3K-£4 depending on speakers (surround may be available - to be confirmed) expected to be in short supply in OCT/NOV in UK Bonners

All seems great , can't wait to hear one

I hope they keep the price down though!!

PS The statement does say , in so many words , it is their interpretation and could change - but usually for the better

[This message has been edited by tony harbour (edited 05-31-2008).]

Possibly Surround sound .........

Sounds sweet...

If i read correctly the New yamaha T3 could have over 700 MB samples onboard.

I only wish they would to a 76+ key , but if it sounds great i could be convinced , though price will be an issue

Surround sound option would be a def improvement(Roland RSS do this on their latest ateliers! but to have in keyboard would be great)

3,000.00 GBP = 5,937.60 USD

Hopefully they addressed the drums this time.

3000 GBP = 3820.84 Euros = 3820.84 USD

You do not convert to USD you just replace the € sign with the $ sign to get the US price. (This applies to virtually every type of product that is sold in the US and Europe (The main exception is fuel, where they practically almost give it away in the US)

Bill

If i buy direct from US to deliver to UK it would save a lot (i assume i would have to add 17.5% VAT=sales tax ontop though) but with 2 dollars to a pound it would be considerably cheaper that way , if the pricing is according to what Bachus predicts - is anyone else buying overseas ? / is it done ?

The dollar is to week for that right now... I'd say $4200 dollars will be the sale price at release.

OK Sorry for my Currency conversion
inadequacies.......still seems WAY Over priced for the little changes listed in teh T3...unless there is MUCH more we dont know about.

Hi Bachus
Go to Google products US and then 1 of the Euro Google products pages and you will find that the US price still pretty much matches the Euro price. (It used to match the UK price, but as you say the dollar is weak at the moment)

Hi Tony
You can indeed get great deals from the US, (Just watch out for customs charges) but unfortunately not on keyboards, this is due to the fact that there is no law in the US that prevents manufactures dictating to their retailers where they can and cannot sell them.
Contrast this with Europe (EU), where the manufactures would be heavily fined if they tried it. (It would be against the EU competition laws)
Hope this helps

Bill

Its changing... Korg is allready raising their US pricess while their EU pricess stay the same.

I understand that Europe has a better market and liking for arrangers, so possibly the price is worth the payback. In the US, with exception of this YOUNG PROFESSIONAL GROUP we have here, it is obvious that Tyros 3 if for the affluent retirees. Even if I wanted one, I couldn't afford it.

Man & wow..if these are the only changes,what a very-mild upgrade over the Ty2!
Looks good i'll now be awaiting until Mr.T4 comes a hopping.

In all probability the ones that will upgrade to the Tyros3 will be Tyros1/PSR-3000 owners...maybe even a few S900 users as well.

Tyros2 users will most likely wait for Tyros4.

Ian

SA switches instead of a footswitch? And which hand, exactly, is going to be free to use these switches?

This was one of the main complaints with the MotifXS... Too much button pushing to get the SA stuff, not enough of it already programmed into the playing. This sounds like a move in the wrong direction, IMO.

Three of those main features could be added to the T2 with no reason to buy a T3... The piano could be released as a sampler load, and the orchestral styles without drums will probably get ported back to the T2 in a matter of weeks, along with the 100 new rhythms and re-worked styles.

If I had a T2 right now, I don't think I would be holding my bated breath for this one...

Maybe the use of the footswitch for SA control will still be an option...can't see why not...certainly would be better for "live" play.

Ian

Hi Abacus

I will compare the prices when it hits the shops , allowing for VAT and customs charges and delivery to see if there is any differential -doubt it else everyone would be doing it , and the UK music stores would go bust

If i have to pay full whack i will probably be holding on to my G70 for now , but it's exciting all the same when a new keyboard comes out whether you own it or not!

Only a major improvement to the styles and drum sounds would tempt me to even consider "upgrading" from the T2.

AJ

Has anyone developed a kick-ass sampled drumkit or two for the T2's sampler..? You would think this is probably the easiest thing to do (no sample stretching problems) with the sampler, and would address the ONE thing the majority of 'pro' players complain about...

Something derived from DFH2 or BFD, or one of the better drum libraries, with multiple velocity levels ought to do the trick. I do almost 90% of my playing with the one kit on my G70... just like a real drummer! He doesn't swap out snare drums between songs, why should my arranger? That ought to make the loading time less of a hassle, just load up at the start of the night (and use a UPS in case of black/brownouts!).

Admittedly, Yamaha's support of their own format is appalling... you'd think they could make gobs of money selling great sounds that the T2 doesn't already have (maybe the best of the MotifXS samples, stuff from their own electronic drum sets, that sort of thing) to savvy T2 users, but NOOOoooo! (thank you, John Belushi!)

But at least a third party could sell them. Why has no-one bothered yet..? Enough certainly complain about the anemic drums

Not enough complaints, Diki...the drums seem to be just fine for the vast majority...they are part of Yamaha's characteristic polished sound....they aren't going to sound like your G70's drums...they aren't meant to.

Only some of the "pros" seem complain...and they aren't who Yamaha is interested in...Yamaha has a "pro" division for those people...Motif etc.

Yamaha arrangers are considered home product...you know that, buddy...some people are just enterprising enough to use them to make money.

Ian

Maybe a good idea to try it Diki. I dunno, I suppose maybe it's also that there is more
than just the Yamaha drums I find to be unappealing to me when I listen to the overall style package vs the styles in my already ancient PA80. The bass sounds are weak on the Tyros as well, although in the patch creator app I was able to make up a more pleasing( for my ears ) electric bass guitar sound.

Both of the guitarists I play with also notice it, so I guess it isn't just me. In the studio setting, I find it easy enough using compression and other effects and mastering software to tame some of the more raw drum sounds in my software apps if need be, to get more toward that "CD" polished sound that we sometimes talk about here, especially when we talk Yamaha styles, but not as easy ( or maybe more accurately realsitic sounding ) to try to go in the other direction and make the compressed Tyros drums sound more life like.

I can understand what you say Ian regarding the targets - Motif ( "pro" ) vs Tyros ( home player ), and the Motif ES has the best drum sets available on any of my hardware boards, but I find at least some of the Tyros 2 panel voices to be sharper and more life like vs their counterparts on the ES, at least on some of the "acoustic" instruments, and I don't make much sense of that. Maybe the ES was supposed to be geared more toward modern synth and hip hop music, ( I don't claim to actually know these things.. just guessing ) but I also see from a sampling of the comments at Motifator that some of the XS owners also lament that they think the T2 has better panel voices in some areas. The ES bass, organ, and electric piano sounds are quite pleasing to me though, and while the ES does have some nice soundscapes, I don't find overall that many of the ES synth patches to be all that strong or "fat" either vs even those on the PA80. I also realize I'm a person who sometimes gets stuck in an analog state of mind while living in a digital type of world, but then again I have some wav and digital based soft synths that are enormous in sound quality. Also, having the AN150 board in my ES does helps quite nicely to make my ( virtual ) analog alter ego pretty happy, which is precisely why, when I found the XS wasn't able to use it, I immediately stopped considering an upgrade from the ES.

The biggest plus for me with the T2 has always been being able to emulate the acoustic instruments, especially a guitar sound using the Tyros so that it's close enough in a demo to get the idea across, and close enough in live play that folks try to figure out how a keyboard can make such a realistic guitar patch. Sometimes the effect is even better when I mix an articulation voice with a megavoice, because the megas do different things at different velocities, and whist it isn't always 100% accurate, it does come out sounding pretty close. Although I can program Real strat or C Heins guitars to come out sounding even more accurate, the key word is program. I don't find either to be more playable than the T2 in real time. I don't think though, that I wanna spend big dollars for a few more articulation voices. hence my initial reply, there has to be a lot more before I consider an upgrade. Instead I'll just keep my favorite "home keyboard" and let it do what it does. It's an ok live play board too btw, but some of that is also because I turn some and sometimes all of the style parts off at various times when I play.

Regards,

AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 05-31-2008).]

Hi Donny,
I think your actual currency converter could be correct.

The USA must just get them cheaper than anywhere else.

Here in Aust. most of the top end arrangers are roughly $6,000 AUD retail.
Our dollar is now pretty close to the same value as USD,
be interesting to see if a T3 has the same price in Aust. as it does in the USA. I doubt it. Somehow don't think replacing the Euro sign for a $ will work here in Aust.

best wishes
Rikki

Rikki......who knows?
Maybe the rumors on T3 are all wrong & its gonna be a SUPER NEW FULL FEATURED Arranger that goes way beyond T2. For that outrageous price maybe they'll surprise us with 76 keys that's the only way I see people spending upwards of $4000.00.

Everyone is allowed to dream, i hope you want be to dissapointed.

It doesnt make sense to upgrade any arranger keyboard unless it has features on it that dont already exist on the instrument you are currently playing or it handles those features substantially better. Yamaha are going to have to do much better to get the same kind of vibe that the T2 created. Now if the T3 had a true sequencer , true sampler, and onboard editing mixing facilities even with its existing sound arsenal it would have a world beater instrument. 76 keys or not !

They could have made the T3 a worthwile update for many if they added them 15 more keys.

'They could have made the T3 a worthwile update for many if they added them 15 more keys.'

And what about the customers they might have lost ?????? Lets leave this thread alone :-)

Who on earth ever said that if Yamaha brought out a 76, they would stop making a 61..? Sheesh!

You would think we were threatening to kidnap your grandkids for all the defensive claptrap this idea gets! Nobody's talking about STOPPING making the 61, fer Chris' sake...

we have talked about this before Dikki. there is no commercial justification in producing a 76 key version AND the 61 key verion of the Tyros. Lets not hijack this thread. There is a 76 keyboard board discussion already on the forum. I apologise for baiting the discussion.

There only is a commercial justification for a T3 that gives people a lot more options then the current T2....

If you sell a 15 key T3 version there is more justification then with a 61 key version. You can always keep selling the T2 as it is next to the new T3.

Diki: Forget about any samples for the T2. Piano, Drums, or any thing else. The load time is way too slow to be useful. I don't know why they even bothered to add the feature. I tried one of the piano samples that someone made and it added a few minutes to the boot up time. I think that's why Yamaha hasn't pushed any new software-based sampler sounds because they know it's not usable.

Some guy in marketing at Yamaha must have said, let's add a sampler reader to the T2. Too bad it's useless.

I have 1 GB of sample RAM in the T2. It takes me about 15 minutes to load half of it - so I just load what I need at any given performance.

That said, on my computer I have 4 GB RAM, and it takes only a minute for me to load the whole thing up.

Its not RAM that is the issue, it's Yamaha playing a cheap trick on its customers by using useless old standards. When I was shopping for RAM many vendors were incredulous that anything modern would use it...

Chony

And its not even the ram that is that old, its their memmory controller and bus that are from before the stone age...

Tough its not only Yamaha..... Roland and Korg play the same tricks.

You can get a pretty damn good multi velocity drum kit in as little as 32MB. That's not TOO much load time for something as critical as a kick-a$$ drum sound, IMO. So you have to be ready ten minutes before downbeat... So what, if you sound live once you do?

Where?

MAY I post here too?
because after read this all and last message...I have really to laugh...

waiting 15 minute for loading 32MB of data?
Hey..we are on year 2008 and NOT on 1946...the war is over from long time....
2GB USB memory stick cost 8 euro, 1GB DDR2 RAM cost now 14 euro...
Loading 1Gb ram in pentium 2 ( NOT dual core) need about 20 second...

Apple Iphone cost there about 300 dollars and can play Mp3, video, phone, internet, touch screen, USB 2.0....
Are you serius there or what??

Bachus, I totally AGREE with you!
at this point the answer are ONLY two:
A) Me and my company LIONSTRACS we are totally stupid for investing in this big project.
B) All you there are totally stupid that continue buy recycled hardware from 20 years.

The winners are only this big brand, that still have the possibility and capacity to resell to stupid people like us, the same soup...

You can criticise the T3 as much as you want, it will still outsell all the other TOTL Arrangers on the market.

Bill

Hi Bill
Totally agree.
I had the Tyros too, for value the OS navigation and the sounds/styles...
Tyros is really one amazing arranger keyboard, BUT sounds to much perfect like one Stereo device.
the right keyboard for make piano bar in one Night club, where the pople like hear some but prefer to sleeping...
Put the tyros in one big hallwhere the people like to dance.
Then compare sounds agressivity from Tyros with the ketron or Korg...( that still all 3 brand use only 16bit DA..)
Tyros concept is made for Home music..I think you have understand what I mean.

To be fair the new Yamaha Tyros3 will have USB 2.0 so things are looking up compared to T2. Still, many questions have yet to be answered about T3, like "real" Sampler or just Sample "player" like T2? Microscopic Edit function in Sequencer or same ol' basic Edit function like T1/T2 Sequencer? The biggest improvement for Tyros3 may be the USB 2.0 interface and not much else perhaps..

We will know after summer NAMM for sure. Tyros3 will be "officially" announced at that time. But regardless of whether the T3 is lame duck or next hot ticket item I will NOT be forking my money over for one. I would buy in a second if T3 made room and came with those 15 extra keys and didn't weigh close to a metric ton. >> (figure of speech and joke of course) but you get the point right?

In theory, Yamaha could gain a total of 50 percent more new customers by making a 76 key totl arranger. A recent poll said at "least" "1/2" of the people surveyed preferred 76 keys over a 61 key counterpart. >> Not only did they prefer 76 keys, most would not stoop so low and buy a 61 key 'anything'. No joke.

As for me, my needs have changed and I simply will NOT buy another 61 key totl arranger - or anything else with just 61 keys for that matter. >> Unless there was a gun pointed at my head and Yamaha said buy or else. Then maybe.. but I would think long and hard about just taking the bullet, rather than to give in to 61 keys - and Yamaha. At least if I did take the bullet I know where I'm going. Talk about a heavenly choir eh?

PS: Yamaha could care less though, in my opinion. On one hand, they know there is a need for 76 keys by all the responses from keyboard players, plus their own market research as well. On the other hand, there are enough European and Canadian [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img] 61 key players to satisfy their hunger and thirst for money I suppose. So those who would like to see a 76 key totl arranger from Yamaha are left holding the bag and are put down and vilified by their meandering clones. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img]

>> We still love ya' though Ian, along with the others who seem it is their duty to dim that great beacon of hope - i.e. a totl 76 key arranger from Yammie Central, no less. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img] [img]http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/liebe/love-smiley-028.gif[/img] I just hope you and others don't mind though that I feel the need to speak my mind on this subject - again. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img] Hopefully Steve Deming is peeking in on this thread too. [img]http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/liebe/love-smiley-024.gif[/img] lol.. You da' man Steve! And of course, also our only hotline to headquarters in Japan. I know you've told them and I know you are rooting for us but so far the results haven't materialized yet. We'll keep hoping and praying that Yamaha Japan changes their minds and as a result their opinionated and oft maligned stubbornness as well. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img] Which would be a miracle in itself when you come to think about it, eh?... [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img]

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 06-02-2008).]

I know I understand what you mean...that's why it is so successful...it is exactly the type of instrument the majority of home keyboard users want.

Ian

SZ is not representative of our arranger markets...this is a niche group to say the least.

Ian

I'd sure like to find where this mysterious majority DO post... or is it that internet illiteracy is a prerequisite for Yamaha 'home' players?

Thats because they all don't realise what 15 extra keys can do for their home keyboard and playing style.

I still think that Baartmans and vocken can do a marketing trick that makes people realise how much they want 76 keys and make the majority buy a 76 key version..

Selling things is all about marketing espescially for the homekey market.

[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 06-02-2008).]

I think if you look at the posting history here, it probably amounts to no more than about 15 or so people who post on a regular basis.

I know that when I was frequenting the yamaha forums more than I do now, the posters and regular members numbered in, I estimated, the 100's.

I am not a yamaha owner anymore (of a keyboard anyway) so I am neither defending nor attacking Ians' statement, it's just an observation.

Thanks Dennis, an accurate observation, to be sure.

The Yamaha forums are still quite busy, and that should take a sharp increase with the Tyros3 introduction.

Ian

Psssst...Bachus.

I think Yamaha is selling those 15 extra keys to Korg...and making a small profit.

Ian

Just curious then, but has anyone recently done a poll on the Yamaha forum, or PSR World, or whatever, about who would buy a 76 S900 or T3 if it was offered?

Be interesting to see what the results would be...

Yamaha surly has done market research and knows what to make & what will make them a profit. I for one have no need for a 76 key arranger for my needs, but dont be fooled Yamaha knows what their doing all around.

I am not interested in conjecture about Yamaha's in house market research. (We'll NEVER get to see it anyway, either to confirm OR deny!)

I would be interested in a non-Yamaha, independent poll of existing Yamaha users, like we tried here (except, of course, we MUST be a niche bunch of users to conclude differently than Holy Yamaha, mustn't we? )...

Mind you, I fully expect to see the same guff spouted even if PSRWorld comes up with significant numbers of 76 wishers. After all, anything that goes against the Yamaha Doctrine MUST be incorrect data, non-correlative nonsense, or an unrepresentative sample, mustn't it?

SZ is just a minuscule tiny % in the research poles.......if it was worth it for Yamaha they would have made a 76 key arranger.

Why would they indeed?

I have a feeling the attitude is 'We're #1 already, why should we try any harder?'

Apparently, their market research also tell them they don't need MFD's with transpose stored, either (or all the other things YOU'D like to see, Donny)... Or is THAT a Yamaha mistake? Naahhhh...! Couldn't possibly be one. They KNOW what they are doing, don't they?

exactly Diki...what just a few people need isn't what they worry about......they'll always be workarounds, needs & wants on every KB in the future.

They don't even do research outside of Japan...

Most of the sound, styles and controls for the T2 were actually done in the UK and Europe; this is why it sounds so western. (Yamaha research the world market, not just Japan, which is why a lot of software design is done outside of Japan, and why European dealers can leak so much information before launch)

Bill

As Bill said, Yamaha research the world market.

Yamaha's incredible success with arrangers did not come about by guess work...they simply identified, by market research, the type of instrument wanted by the majority of home users...and they produced products to fit that description.

A highly detailed but user friendly OS, superb CD quality sound, great usable factory styles...that's what the majority of home users want according to Yamaha's market research, and, if sales success is any indication, they have delivered the goods.

Tyros3 will be the logical, not radical, step up from the very successful Tyros2.

Ian

Exactly Ian......Home market majority rules in this game....the very small minority can look elsewhere for there needs....there are other choices. Yamaha cannot make everyone happy but a big worldwide chunk is all they need year after year to continue to be very successful in their Music Division for sure.

Yes, Donny, but let's not forget that Tyros and S900 are also used "as is" by Nashville Music Row for their writers when they brainstorm, and are also used by serious professionals like Melissa Manchester, Martina McBride, David Paich (Toto), David Bryant(Bon Jovi)and many others.

Pros know a good thing when they see it, and are clever enough to use it to their advantage.

You're one of them, aren't you?

Ian

Ian yes I am...I may have strayed & tested the waters many times but as you well know I have always returned to Yamaha. I'll admit its not "perfect" for MY needs, but there is certainly more then enough including a few workarounds to keep me interested & able to perform successfully night after night. Im now resolved to be a bit more patient & will have a wait & see attitude in the meantime. Once you weigh the circumstances & features, for my needs Yamaha is the ticket for now.

I still think we will NOT see a 76 arranger from Yamaha for a different reason than the gang here is talking about.

Rivalry between divisions! That's why I never (well never is a long time)expect one.

Upper Yamaha management has made a decision.

Think about it... why not make a 76. Virtually no R&D cost and the additional $ to build it is very small. They could certainly sell quite a few and have all the bases covered. Get a few more happy customers...so Why not.

My theory makes a lot of sense, don't ya think?

It's simple to me...it's easy to do, it would be profitable...so why not do it.

Big Boys in Japan say..stay in your own court! You are home keyboard division!

Lee

Your "theory" is just that, Lee...a theory.

I'm of the belief, as are many others, that there is not enough demand for 76 keys for the arranger market...if there was, Yamaha would be making one...it's that simple.

Ian

Yamaha did take the chance on a Pro76 arranger (9000pro)...obviously it failed & they have moved on brilliantly in taking the LEAD in the arranger KB market. They KNOW what they are doing & millions will buy their arrangers in the future as always.

Same old tired, rehashed excuses...

So Yamaha rule the home market? Whoop-te-do! What none of us understand is why they don't want to rule the 'pro' market AS WELL...

Basically, if all it took would be to place the already tried and tested S900 and stick it in a box with 76 keys (and they already have those actions made), basically a trivial thing compared to completely re-designing an entirely new arranger (heck, you wouldn't even need a different assembly line ), why on earth WOULDN'T Yamaha do it..? Sure, they are now making products for the customers they currently have, and extremely successful ones, at that. But why not get the rest of the market (small as it might seem, all evidence here to the contrary!), if it could be got so simply?

I don't buy any of this... Divisional rivalry makes no sense, and leaving untouched a potential market that could be won with a minor case redesign also seems dumb. Dominating a market is a commendable practice, business-wise, but STOPPING when you only dominate 'part' of the market seems a bit contrary to accepted practice. Winner take ALL... Isn't that the mantra of capitalism? Just because Ford dominate the pickup market doesn't make them give up on sedans... or sport cars, for that matter. Even though it is a MUCH smaller market.

I guess it's a wait and see thing...Yamaha obviously does not feel the need to make a 76 note keyboard, and whatever their reasons, they feel they are the right ones.

20-25 people on a niche forum that want 76 keys, most of whom wouldn't buy a Yamaha arranger no matter how many keys it had, aren't going to jump start a company into launching a new product, especially when they are already making one that satisfies the vast majority of users...including many pros.

It's not going to be "build it and they will come"....it's going to be more like "show the need, and they will make it".

Ian

Ian,
Yes, of course it's only a theory... but a darn good one. The arranger has grown up!
It's not that little toy cheesy sounding thing of the past! It's now a wonderful great sounding instrument with many PRO features and sounds. Some of the sounds are better than the synths(Motif).

Like Diki said, it would be trivial to build one so why not?

Divisional rivalry makes no sense, you kidding, I worked for a very large company, IBM... you bet it goes on every day.

At IBM, I attended many meeting where we talked about product/marketing etc involving our customers and we treated the 'other' division like competitors! Both divisions had products that could basically solve the customers problems. We each had our own sales quotas and pot of money.

Example: The motif can now do styles as such. Not the same as we do with T2, but it is styles (phrases). I heard it demoed last weekend at Sweetwater Gearfest. Sounded a lot like styles to me. Why would PRO synth players want that? The line is getting closer and closer between arrangers and synths (workstations)

Lee

Perhaps you guys do have a point, Lee, but gearing up for any new product is not as easy as you guys assume.

I still believe it's not going to be "build it and they will come"....it's going to be more like "show the need, and they will make it".

That's my theory, and I'm stickin' to it!

Lee, I've pointed out many times that, if the divisional rivalry theory was correct, the WS MotifXS line would NEVER have got the SA technology. The arranger division invented it, were the first to implement it, and if divisional rivalry would stop the arranger division from making a 76, it would stop the WS division from acquiring SA technology.

Roland do NOT stop making a 76 arranger, simply because there is a KR-series 88 note piano/arranger. They are utterly different products (as a 76 S900 would be compared to a CVP) and do not directly compete, price-wise OR feature-wise. Same with Korg. ONLY Yamaha have this hole in their market line, and I do NOT believe it is anything to do with divisional rivalry.

Personally, I think it is laziness, and complacency. "We're #1. Why try harder?"

Mind you, that's what Roland USED to say....

I've been lurking here lately reading the posts about tyros3 as I will probably buy one. It feels like a time warp and I'm reading the same posts right before tyros2 came out. Same wishes and complaints, and a few attempts to trash a board before it even gets out. I've been buying arranger keyboards, mostly yamahas, for 30 years and nobody has ever polled me. I have always liked 61 key boards and DO know what I am missing not haning 76 keys. I wouldn't like any board any longer than 61 keys. I AM that home user that yamaha caters to................ -charley

Yes, Charley, you are Yamaha's target user...the home player, but many pros have discovered the delights and advantages of using Yamaha arrangers in their work and play.

61 keys have always been fine for me too.

Ian

And I am the pro they DON'T cater to.

And my money is as good as yours

The thing Ian DOESN'T want you to do is extrapolate...

25-25 people on a TINY BBS extrapolates to HUGE numbers world wide. Unless, of course, you want to pretend that EVERY last 76 wanting Yamaha user actually DOES post here In English

I don't agree, Diki...it is very obvious that SZ is a niche forum...extrapolate all you want...the numbers just aren't there or the product would be on the shelves as we speak.

Wise people know the biggest way to fail is to try and please everybody...it just doesn't work.

Of course your money is as good as mine...but you probably have more of it than I do...I'm so poor, the mice left.


Ian

So Diki let say Yamaha does make another 76 key is that all the criteria you desire....? I dont think so.......Will those 76 keys FEEL GOOD when your playing, good key weight? etc, ...so you have great sounds & styles & 76 keys, BUT will you be happy navigationally? or with the lack of editing capabilities, makeup tools, sampler, & all the other features you need. 76 good keys is just one thing amongst many.
Then your gonna have to contend with your peers saying "look at him hehehe he's playing a Home Keyboard"

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-04-2008).]

Diki,the G70 is now out of production afik, and according to a Roland rep, via a friend I know in the industry, there is NO replacement 76 note arranger planned. Even the E-60 is out of production according to this source??

Sales are coming only from the remaining stock levels.

More is planned for the E-80/61 note range, but nothing as far as a 76. So you may have to hold on to that beast for a while, but as you said you are really happy with it so that shouldn't be a problem.

As for me, there are only 2 new G70's left in the Roland warehouse and they STILL want the original rrp from 4 years ago, way too expensive for technology that old imo, otherwise one would be sitting in my studio right now!!

Dennis

So Dennis the new Roland GX90 arranger rumors are false?

If this is fact, Dennis, then perhaps the alleged popularity of 76 note arrangers by a few SZ members is far less than described.

The G70 sold very poorly in my area, as did the E-60, so maybe the handwriting is on the wall regarding their replacements.

Ian

Yeah Donny, according to the rep (off the record so I am told), the E80's name might be changed, but they were sticking with 61 key arrangers.

There was strong talk at the start of the year about one ( a new 76er) going into development, but apparently someone, or + others at Roland didn't think it was a good idea and bailed.

Look, it could be that something IS coming, who knows with these companies, but this source reckons nothing on the horizon, 76 note-wise...Whether Roland decide in 18 months, 2 years to re-visit 76ers, only time will tell.

I just thought I would post it as Diki mentioned Roland wasn't stopping making 76 note arrangers.

The guy I know is pretty reliable, so much so, that instead of waiting to see what Roland are going to do, I bought a PA2xPro instead (AGAIN!!!).

Dennis

Just another thought I had (nothing to do with the above) Maybe Roland will do a Korg and release a super duper 61 arranger (vis-a-vis PA800) to test the waters , so to speak, and then if it goes well re-develop that inot a 76 note board, althought o be fair to KOrg, they probably had the PA2x planned all along..
Dennis

Miden or maybe Roland see all the success that Yamaha has had after dropping the 76 key 9000pro......so the will also follow suit and start only making 61 arrangers too.Follow the leader

You know, I have been buying Roland and Yamaha gear for years (first Yammie was a PF15, and then a DX7, my first Roland was the Jx3p), and one thing I have observed is they DO usually follow each other in what they are releasing and when although the when is not always parallel.

It really does not surprise me to see Roland drop the 76 note arranger from their arsenal, if indeed thay have.

Only having 61 note arrangers is HUGELY successful for Yamaha, so why wouldn't Roland stop flogging a dead horse, and adopt a similar strategy..

Who knows they, unlike Yamaha, might be planning to incorporate more arranger like functionality in the Fantom range, a sort of cross-gender pro division/consumer division beastie!!!

Or maybe add arranger functions to a bigger version of the Sonic Cell... if so, then THAT would be one killer keyboard, or module!!!

Argghhh!!! Now I am dreaming LOL!!!!

Dennis

I think you have it there Donny!!

Well, first things first...

Yamaha dropped the 9000Pro because it was a DOG...! Not because it had 76 keys, but because it had so many problems, flaws and OS bugs. It would have failed as a 61 as well (in fact, Yamaha's dominance now is possibly as a result of them NOT making a 61 version of it, and burning all their customers!). So scratch THAT theory, please!

As to Roland bailing on 76 arrangers and cutting back drastically... Not surprising. They made such a hash of the last two series (VA and G70/E80) and overpriced them so badly compared to the G1000 that it would have surprised me to see ANY arranger for a while. OTOH, that's not really troubling me, because for the way I use it, the G70 already is close to perfect, and I usually want a good ten years or so out of any major investment like that. Familiarity trumps incremental improvements, IMO...

I must confess, I don't use an arranger like the majority of you. Firstly, I don't play solo much. I always want a real guitarist with me. Secondly, I don't actually use the arranger section much for live play. I prefer just drums, and a lot of left hand bass, or I'll use the arranger to make an SMF in advance, so I can still play two handed. Or I just make straight ahead SMF's. I have always preferred arrangers NOT because of the arranger, but because the sound-set is usually more meat and potatoes straight ahead stuff than the cutting edge stuff they pack WSs with (which I have little use for)....

So, in all fairness, and despite making a lot of noise about it at Roland-Arranger.com (no point in NOT trying to get flaws fixed, even if you don't use them much!), I don't see any reason to bail on my G70 for a LONG time. Maybe long enough for Roland to get back in the business, or, more likely, long enough for WS loop-stations like the MotifXS to get a more arranger-like control paradigm. Hey, maybe even long enough for things like the MS to actually turn into something useful!

But, as I have said before, IF Yamaha made a 76 S900, I would buy one in a flash for doing solo gigs. Their guitar patterns and sounds have no equal (IMO), and the awful keyboard (if it is the same as the 61) would not matter THAT much. Of course, all things being equal, I would never use anything that felt like that, but if the only thing available that had that good a guitar sound felt like that, function would trump ergonomics (as I'm sure many of you feel about this issue!). For a 'background', solo OMB keyboard, the S900 is hard to beat (T2 doesn't add enough useful for the price, although I might pick one up if the prices tumble once the T3 is out ).

So, for me, it IS frustrating that Yamaha don't consider a 76 version of the S900 a viable option. Like I said, I have a sneaky suspicion (especially after hearing that Yamaha's in house survey doesn't even ASK the question) that a lot more people than Ian admits WOULD buy a 76 version IF OFFERED. Of course. we'll never find that out until they offer it, which they won't, because they haven't asked anybody! Circular logic....

But if anyone wants to bail on a mint G70 for a reasonable price, just because Roland MIGHT not make another one, drop me a line. It wouldn't hurt to have a backup...

If there is no G-series replacement (76 key)I believe Roland will add SMF players and more advanced MP3 control to more models of their digital piano line...and add some rudimentary styles like the ones on the FP series.

That should satisfy many of the piano players on SZ...at least those who rely on those features...but hopefully, they will make the instruments much lighter than they are presently.

Ahhh, it's moments like this that make me want to hug my S900...I'm glad a lightweight 61 note instrument is perfect for my arranger needs and I'm sure there are many others who feel the same way.

Ian

One thing the discussion about 76 key arrangers is lacking is facts.
If Roland were to discontinue making 76 key arrangers, people assume that they are doing so because it is 76 keys.

People forget that the G70 is very big and heavy. The E60 just did not have all the right features. So just saying that they are discontinuing 76 key arrangers is misleading and does not tell the full story.


Likewise, saying that Yamaha is successful with 61 key arrangers so that is why they don’t make 76 keys is also misleading. Yamaha has never made a 76 key arranger that is not heavy, not bulky, and has a good working OS with sounds and styles. On top of all that, Yamaha says it does market research, but we have no proof of that research asking customers about a light-weight reasonalably sized (no bigger than T2), same sounds styles and OS as T2 arranger.

And no one has been able to answer the question. If T2 or T3 or S900 were 76 keys, the same weight as the T2, T3 or S900, same styles sounds and OS as T2, T3 or S900 small to fit in the back seet of a car, and no more than $100 than T2 T3 or S900, would that prevent persons from buying it?

I can...for me it would be a definite....maybe.

What about you, genesys?

Would you actually buy one, or are you just making hypothetical conversation?

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-05-2008).]

I would buy one tommorrow 8:00 AM!
No hype, no maybe's. Make it available and I will bite.

Offering a 61 and 76 is no brainer!

(Please see my post in other Tyros 3 topic, regarding Yamaha (and others)missing the boat here)

Lee

Anyone here that would trade his or her T2 for a 76 key S900 ?

How about you, Bachus...are you interested in a Yamaha 76 key S900?

Would you trade your Tyros2 for one?

Perhaps your comments are just rhetorical?

Ian

Why the heck would I want to go down hill on sound, function etc to get a 76 s900?

No, But I would buy a 76 T3....
But, there's nothing wrong with offering a 76 s900 also!

Ian, you taking deposits???

Lee

Yes I would!!! I would just have to bring to a gig one keyboard. No module and controler, not two keyboards. One keyboard for playing in arranger mode, full piano, and have more than one split in the right hand. A 76 T3 the most logical keyboard Yamaha could make it would not stop the 61ers from buying it and they get more people to buy.

I don't have a T2... just an old T1... that i would trade for a 76 key S900... but thats not a fair comparison as it would be a step up musicall wise too.

Since i need 2 keys now, Roland RD500 and T1 to play my heart out, i decided that they should be replaced by 1 keyboard in the fuuture... a 76 key version. (Or a Wersi Abacus witht th 76 keys added)

So 61 keys is just not an option for me.

Lee, Bachus and genesys...thanks for your great comments, guys...much appreciated.

Ian

Ian,
Your welcome...
Your always a scholar, a gentleman and a lot of fun!

Lee