Which keyboards have sounds that when i play notes fluently (legato) the orriginall instrument plays as one legato part..

For excample a trumpet without breathing , or a Violin without the bow leaving the strings...

And they setup other samples for Portato or even stacato play, this technique used by Yamaha in their super articulation sounds must have been addapted by other keyboards as well by now..

So how about the Korg Pa2X, Roland E80, Wersi Abbacus, Ketron Audya and Lionstracs mediastation ? Did they also addapt to this kind of voicess?

The SA technology is patented by Yamaha so that no one else can use it.
However virtually all large sample library VSTs (And others) have had plenty of these types of voices for years.
The Wersi OAS 7 sound system also has the capability to perform the same effects, however as of yet Wersi has not released any voices using it. (It currently costs a lot of time and money to develop these types of voices; even the simpler SA voices are limited in the number that are available)
To show what could be archived in the future; there are some simple ones at http://www.sonic-core.net/de/products/soniccore.html and http://www.soundfonts.it/?a=read&b=25 with another interesting technique here http://www.samplemodeling.com/en/demos.php

Hope this helps

Bill

Aye..

I knew that most top lknotch Vst's use these voicess..but i did not know which other Keyboards use them, I didn't know Wersi could do it with their OAS tough, thats probably another step closer to my decision.

Just curious, but if that is patented technology (SA voices), how come software samplers can use it?

Maybe it's NOT as patented as we have been lead to believe...?

Hi Diki
The way it is achieved is patented; however there is always more then one way to achieve the same result.
The reason Wersi can cover all the Yamaha Mega styles etc, is not because it is licensed from Yamaha but they have written their own software to achieve the same result.
It’s also ironic that such a minor feature as direct Yamaha style play has overshadowed what the Wersi OAA is about.
Regards

Bill

One of the things you're almost forced to do when playing legato is to back off on the velocity you can use. (Ever tried thumping the keys and playing legato simultaneously?)

So similar effects - smoother transition of notes - are possible just thro detection of low velocity. In fact the Yam. PC Voice editor that comes with Ty2 allows you do just that- there are settings to modify the attack in various ways depending on velocity.

I haven't been able to convince myself whether Yam really is determining legato by analysis or inference from velocity since it's quite difficult to test & distinguish with certainty.

It wouldn't be the first time that a company would patent a new idea just to keep the Competition from being able to develop and exploit it, even though they may not actually be using it themselves.

John



[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 04-25-2008).]

That's pretty easy to test, I would have thought...

Play one note (any velocity), hold it. Play another while you are holding it. Does it play with the attack transients of the first?

There's your answer...

AFAIK, Yamaha's SA voice tricks are NOT based on velocity, but on whether you are actually holding a note down when you play the second... Play detached, you get the attack. Play legato, no attack. Velocity has been used long before SA, to get multi sample dynamics, or to trigger 'bends' or hammer-ons on guitars, etc.

The SA voice system also uses intervals BETWEEN notes you play to determine if elements like fret squeak get triggered. It's totally different from just velocity triggering...

Yes Diki that's one of the tests I used, another being playing legato compared with playing staccato at low velocity. It's difficult even so to be black & white about it since the differences in attack, in changing purely from leg. to stac. - if any - are to me, slight and much more obvious attack changes come about with a deliberate increase in velocity. (Talking sax & trumpet here.)

The information display for the SA guitars states "Legato notes played within an interval of a 4th sound as a hammer on/off or slide". (To trigger the latter requires high velocity). That works.
Fret noise is always described as being "added randomly".

John


[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 04-25-2008).]

Quite true, Bill, but Yamaha makes using these voices in "live" play accessible to the average player.

One simply selects an SA instrument and plays...the technology does the work.

Ian

I believe korg has a legato option under sound editing if I remeber correctly.

I will check on the pa800 and then let you know.

I believe that the Korg option applies to envelope behavior of monophonic sounds, but NOT to completely different samples between staccato and legato, not to intervalic rules.

The Yamaha behavior IS complicated because of velocity AND legato combinations, and intervallic rules as well. That's what makes it so 'human'.

But think for a minute about 'legato'. The very nature of it in acoustic instrument DOES mean it isn't played as hard... You can't put as much force behind a legato line on a wind instrument as you can a staccato blast... and a string that is hammered on, or played legato ISN'T re-picked, and IS quieter than a picked one.

It really DOES mimic natural playing techniques in many instruments. I am looking forward to seeing how far ahead the T3 can push this technology. It truly doesn't have ANY hardware equivalent, yet, IMO...

He-heh! That's right Ian. Now any old "key plonker" can now be instantly transformed into one of Diki's favourite sax players.

My own experience is that most need editing to allow the player to get a decent baseline sound first using just "low" velocity (default settings force use of too-high velocity and the full SA potential is masked IMO).
Then they need to be played with an awareness of the sensitivity required by the technology to bring out the best results.
For people who are used to aiming for full expression it's less of a deal and for those who don't already, the techniques are beneficial with non-SA voices too.

John

Of course, John, didn't you read the brochure?

Sound like "Trane" or the "Hawk" with the press of a key...pure magic!(...and bull poop)

Actually, it is pretty accessible, although it does take some time to be accurate enough in your phrasing to give it maximum realism.

Still...kudos to Yamaha for making it relatively painless to get a great sound.

You are correct about editing...it can give a bit more control, although I'm quite content with the SA voices as they are...I love the SA Sax...it was the main reason I bought the S900.

Ian

I agree with Ian....playing the SA voices is an amazing experience for sure. Once you master how to effectively control them & use them correctly while playing they are hard to compare to anything out there on the market that I have heard so far. Yamaha has certainly done their job well.

There are really great sax players, and there are really terrible ones! The instrument is the same - what changed?

Same with the SA sax...

In the hands of someone that DOES know how to phrase and decorate like a real sax player, you can get closer than you ever have before (you'll never get there completely, but every little helps), but in the hands of someone that doesn't quite grasp how a sax player thinks and breathes, well, the brochure might need a re-write

It IS a start, but I think I've said before, by the time you model ALL the possibilities a sax player can pull out of a horn, it'll end up so complicated to control, you might as well learn to play the real thing!

But at least it does solve (or at least partially) one of the great problems of emulating sax on an arranger... the inability to use the bender as much as you like because your LH is tied up playing chords. Just about any other keyboard sax sound really NEEDS this before it starts so sound realistic, but the SA sax can phrase well enough to get by without it. It still sounds a little stiff, but the falls and decoration stuff you can do can help mask that.

Basically, I rarely ever solo on the sax sound in my Roland if I CAN'T use the bender...

THis all makes me wonder iff all those vst's that promise the same(legato) are just as easy to play as the SA voicess from Yamaha.....

I fiddled something with a sax and a violin on the Roland V-synth last week, but they were far from easy compared to the results the SA voicess yield with much less excersise...

Diki ....


Maybe you can tell the difference but I dont think the average listener in the audience really notices the difference you mention regarding all the technical nuances.
I would say to my ears most of the SA sounds are very close enough to make people enjoy playing & others enjoy listening.
I cant wait, tomorrow my S900 will be here.
Thanks everyone for all the suggestions, tips & help in making me realize that the S900 is truly the keyboard for me at this time.

I don't play a lot of sax solo's, but I more than make up for it with trumpet, trombone and flute. I decided if I have to choose between playing the chord properly and making my horns sound authentic I would go with the latter. IMO, folks will notice a "dead" horn before they notice a wrong arranger bass line. Still I try only to use the pitch bend when I can REMAIN on ONE chord. If I have to deflower the chord, I keep it to probably under a second. Just long enough to put some life into the horn line.

I'm playing a Roland board, and I still, after years playing Roland, can't get used to the "sideways" action. The best axe I ever played was the DX7 where you could hang your hand right on the corner of the keyboard and make both wheels really effective.

Not crazy about the placement of the Ketrons, though I'm still considering buying one for sound quality.

Lucky

On my PSR-S900, I use a Yamaha FC-7 volume pedal for pitch bends when I want that effect in any quantity whilst in arranger mode...I mostly use the wheel at home.

Never liked the Roland bender as it is impossible to leave modulation "on"...you have to keep pressure on the lever...Korg's joy-stick is no better...and like you, I didn't much care for the sideways motion....plus, if your playing a 76 note keyboard, the bender is a loooonnng reach.

Wheels are the way to go...my Mini-Moog had them, as did my DX-7 and Casio CZ-1...you could, as you say, "hang your hand right on the corner of the keyboard and make both wheels really effective".

My old Roland Jupiter 8 had the lever...it was awkward, and I never got used to it...you had to push so hard for modulation, the keyboard would actually move away from you...and the JP-8 wasn't light.

Diki's suggestion of a "chord sequencer" would go a long way in solving many of the issues we have with pitch bending.

The Yamaha SA voices are relatively easy to work...we're not going to fool a real sax player, but it does give the "impression" of a Saxophone.

Ian

Ian,

I do a LOT of pitch bend. Are you saying one can do a useful range of bending with a foot volume pedal? There's a dedicated input for this on the 900?

I've been thinking about that new Ketron Audya but the position of those wheels is making me nervous. Then again, I'm wondering if Ketron also devised an external control for the "bends?"

I think if you're trying to sound like a whole band, you really need to work on each instrument sound and get a general idea of what distinguishes each one. And how to match the left and right keyboard sounds. One of my favorite combo's is French Horn on the right against deep strings on the left.

At one time I had a sound module MIDI'd to the left side of the split point with a swell pedal controlling it. This way I could control the volume separately and bring in the external strings at will. On the module I was using, I split the string sound and detuned them against each other so it would sound fuller. The signal then went out in stereo. Incredible sound!

In the end, and probably after the Audya hits the market, I'll probably go with a 900 myself if I don't buy a Ketron.

Lucky

So does anyone know any/more vst's that can be played like the Tyros SA voices?

I am looking for Sax, brass, violins, guitars and more...

[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 04-28-2008).]

Hi Lucky,

I got used to pitch bending with a pedal a long time ago on one of my old Electone organs...and, yes you can do some decent pitch bending using an FC-7 on the PSR-S900....and also on the Tyros (1&2).

The S900 has two pedal inputs(the Tyros has three)and these can be assigned pitch bend.

You can also assign the volume of the sound in the left hand to respond to the volume pedal...handy for bringing in that strings voice.

I use the velocity sensitivity to bring in (and decrease) the left sound by repeatedly replaying the notes in the chord at increasing (or decreasing)levels of strength...it's a skill you need to practice...but it works well for me....also you can get different notes to stand out from the rest by this method.

Position of the wheels is terrific on the Tyros2/S900...reminds me of my old DX-7...and of course, the PB Wheel can be assigned to any or all voices...including LH.

Although many consider Ketron a maker of fine instruments, I have yet to play one....the dealers in my area don't carry the line....so I can't comment on them.

The S900 is a fine piece of work...I had the T2 for several months on my sample account, but the S900 got my vote...it's a lot of arranger for the money.

Good luck with your search.

Ian

Just curious, but what would you ever leave permanently UP on the modulation wheel?

If you are thinking filter cutoff or something like that, you see, Roland use the SLIDERS for voice programming, no need for the mod wheel.

The lever basically just does vibrato (and a trumpet 'growl' on the E80), and other than Farfisa type organs, what sound needs constant vibrato? (and if it does, you can program the voice to have it permanently, or with a delay)

Yes, I spent years on Minimoog's, etc., and still have my DX7, and a few other things that have the two wheel system, and it's a great system, but I have had no problem over the years with the Roland system, either. Aftertouch and the sliders have always allowed me to achieve the same end result...

What I REALLY want is a pitch strip like Korg and Kurzweil... Hammer on/offs, trills, scoops, doits,, playing lines without re-triggering the voice (a BIT like SA), all of these are a snap on the pitch strip....

Vibrato...nice to have it variable as well as on/off...Leslie speed(variable) and yes, filter cutoff...real cool with the wheel...better than sliders IMO...your hand is already at that end of the instrument.

I like the strip too...it was on the Yamaha CS-80 and my old Polymoog...still, I do prefer the wheels...just seem more natural than the bender....awkward pushing ahead and sideways at the same time....yeah...wheels are better.

Ian

Roland's lever IS variable, you just have to be a bit subtle with your pressure. It's definitely NOT all on or off, like some seem to think.

Leslie on/off? Got an FC-7 assignment for that, why would I want to take my hands off the keyboard?

And voice programming..? Well in a WS or synth, yes, you've got time to hang out down at the left end, but arranger play doesn't give you that option, often (as I keep trying to say!). Having a slider in the middle allows the RH as well as the LH to adjust this kind of thing, and the RH may have the time more often than the left. It's not perfect, but it allows you to vary a variety of parameters rather than the ONE mapped to modulation wheel (it's called that for a reason!)

For synth playing, and non-arranger use, yes, I really like the two wheel system, but in arranger mode, it's a bit restrictive, IMO...

Yep, you're correct...that's why I use the FC-7 pedal...at least until someone makes a chord sequencer.

Ian

I have seen many KB players Arranger & Synth who hardly ever use the joystick while they play & still sounded very, very good. So my question is.....is using the stick or wheel not that necessary if your a really good player? I have also listened to many who really make a mess out of playing while they use it due to abusing it, over doing it, bad timing jumping between LH chord changes etc. Who really notices all the bending anyway the audience knows its not a real sax or guitar or whatever anyway no matter how much joystick you try to use.
I rarely use it in my songs, although its very intriguing I wonder if its worth learning?

The wheel is like any other performance enhancer...it can be over-used.

Judicious use of pitch bend can really bring life to a sax line, or a guitar solo...but it will depend on the skill of the user.

Pitch bending is an art in itself...guys like Jan Hammer and Jordan Rudess are masters.

Ian

But Ian lets face it .....Masters are just that and far & few. The average gigging Joe is what I am talking about. It's hard enough to just play & control an arranger & all it's features & functions all at the same time. All this while jumping off to a joystick also. The pedal you mentioned could be a viable option for sure leaving your hand available to play & manipulate buttons, flip pages or whatever. Also, If I may, doesn't sometimes using a joystick etc conflict with the natural makeup of Yamahas SA voices?
BTW my S900 arrived & I'm in arranger heaven WOW!

Well John, I am no master at it...I consider myself an average player...I keep things pretty simple...strive more for accuracy and detail.

I do find, however that using the PB wheel adds that little "something" to a voice...and especially an SA voice(if it is one that we would usually bend).

I feel it can enhance a performance...but it is not necessary...we can play without ever using the wheel and still sound fine...the SA voices do provide some enhancing tricks on their own.

Congratulations on your S900...you won't get much sleep for the next few days.

Ian

John,

When you one day become a player, you’ll look back at what you said here and understand it better. I think Ian would tell you the same thing. It's not so much a question of do you want to or NOT want to use pitch bend...or....can you sound good and get by without using it…or…will the "pitch bend police" write you up if you don't use it?

It's about hearing an arrangement in your head (while you’re playing) and realizing it through PB. When I’m playing a song, I don’t just hear a flat trumpet line in my mind…I also hear where I want to PB notes and how it adds to my forward momentum of the song. It brings me and my playing to life and hopefully that transcends to the audience.

A good example (though not the only one) is St. Louis Blues. You really can’t play that effectively without PB. Another tune I do is Clyde McCoy’s Sugar Blues. The original is made up of bent notes. The song is so simple you have no choice. And then there’s every other song on the planet that benefits from PB.

That PB really helps get what’s inside of me OUTSIDE of me. I almost get a high when I bend a note. But that’s me….I just happen to have a fetish for PB the way some folks have a fetish for “smilies.”

Lucky

Mmmmmmm! Who could that be?

It seems to me there 2 basic types of pitch bending:

1. The virtuoso type where the hand is constantly going back to the wheel to
deliver bend patterns that are not practical to automate, and where the usual functions of the LH have to be compromised.


2. The more natural types of bend that occasionally happen at the beginning of
notes varying from those barely discernible scoops to lengthier/lazier - up to
1-2 semitone bends - up to pitch.

For me it is these that provide the impression there could be a real person
playing that horn or sax - as important as those other changes of attack and
timbre that can occur through playing technique.

And having to move the left hand over to the wheel every time spoils that impression (for me, as a player ).

So for certain instruments I create custom voices usually based on Ty2 onboard voices (although they don't have to be) which produce those type 2 graded bend effects triggered by velocity, different values of the latter often triggering a "legato" effect and timbre changes.

That way you get the extra realism in solo playing, and full BigBand ensembles become busy, appearing to come alive and all you have to do is play expressively leaving the left hand to do what it does (should do) best and without interfering with your natural rhythm (karma?) of playing.

It's certainly liberating and can be very inspiring if playing freestyle.

John

You wrote: “It's hard enough to just play & control an arranger & all it's features & functions all at the same time. All this while jumping off to a joystick also. The pedal you mentioned could be a viable option for sure leaving your hand available to play & manipulate buttons, flip pages or whatever."

After a certain amount of time (and if you keep pushing yourself) one day it all comes together. It's like when you're out in your car....you're simultaneously steering, talking to your passenger, changing radio stations, checking your rear view mirrors, LOOKING OUT FOR SPEED TRAPS (had to throw that in) and whatever else you do while driving. Think about it…you've been doing it so long it becomes 2nd nature! That’s what happens with playing.

Most of us don't even have to look when we reach for the "wheels." We’ve just come to know where they are from constant use!

"BTW my S900 arrived & I'm in arranger heaven WOW!"

Good for you...you've got 7 days and 7 nights to learn the profession now with no excuses.

BTW...I really appreciate your enthusiasm. I think it "kick-starts" a lot of us. It does me, at least.

Lucky

Ian,& Lucky2Bhere thank you ....The S900 is everything you said it would be and more, I can see why you praise it so much. Coming from the 3k the basics are pretty straight forward but it is so much more sound-wise & the WAV recorder works flawlessly. Your probably right on the no sleep....I am in the process of transferring and tweaking my 3k registrations, so far all is very good.

BTW, I agree with you on the take it or leave it on the PB. But I guess if you can use it correctly it would serve some purpose for sure, especially to the player mostly. I am confident that I will make this all happen & yes when it becomes second nature I'll know its time to give it a go out in the trenches. All of your advice & help was a big part of it for sure.



[This message has been edited by John DiLeo (edited 04-28-2008).]

John, I guess if you are planning to only learn what the 'average' listener notices, you might as well forget about learning the correct chords, words and melody for a song, as well...

The audience doesn't often know WHY it likes one player over another. The technical details are beyond them. But like they say "I can't tell good art from bad, But I know what I like.."

They don't need to understand how, or why you are doing something. They just need to like it. But if you base your learning about what YOU think the audience does, or doesn't understand, you are making a big mistake, IMO. It is easy to make false assumptions about what non-musicians like or not.

Let's face it, if these bends, or any other technical performance 'trick', are performed by those 'greats', including, of course the 'greats' on the instrument that you are emulating, well, they are not playing them because they go over a non-technical audience's head. They play them because a great bend, at the right time and place, is a EMOTIONAL experience that needs no technical knowledge whatsoever.

The technical knowledge, that's OUR job. We do the work, so they don't HAVE to think about it.

Anyone, by the way, that thinks that bending while you are playing a LH chord section is as good as when you are NOT, there's an easy test you can do. Record into your sequencer JUST the backing for a song you like to solo over. Now, play back the backing, and use the audio recorder (or another track in the sequencer) to record yourself playing the solo.

Now do the same thing, but play the chords and the solo at the same time. Listen to the two. Count how many times you were in the process of doing a bend when the chord changed, on the SMF backing version. You already know how many times you did it while you were playing it all live... ZERO!

For most players that learned in bands, you never have to think about this, but if you learn on arranger, you have to start using the sequencer, even if it is simply a copy of what your LH would have done, anyway, and you can finally get to understand the MASSIVE difference between playing bends when YOU (or the music) need them, and playing when you have a spare second to jump to the wheel and back.

Night and day, I'm afraid.

To be honest, most of the really juicy bend opportunities come DURING chord changes. That's what makes them so expressive - they transition from one mode to another. And these are the very ones you cannot do in arranger mode, so it's easy to assume that they are not as important as they are. But give the arranger a rest, sometimes, and just let your emotion allow you to play what YOU want, not what the arranger MAKES you play, and you can start to understand why all the REAL instrument players that you are emulating use those bends in the first place. Guitar players, sax players, violin players, fretless bass, horn players, you name it. If it CAN be bent, the good players DO...

Don't sell your audience (or yourself) short, John...

On this subject of how important is pitch bend: I found a sound file I made of myself demonstrating pitch bend for a talk I was doing a while back. The song was a big band oldie where I took a trumpet "ride" in the middle of it. Listening to it myself, I can see how lifeless it would be without PB.

It's about 20-30 seconds. I have no way to post it. If anyone would care to place it on a "downloading" site they have access to, I'll mail it to you as an attachment.

Lucky

The cool thing about the SA guitars is that you can get an expressive bend without using the wheel.

John...you'll get used the S900's neat features in time...it's a great instrument.

Sure it's a little harder using the wheel in arranger mode, but you can still use it enough to add expression to your lines.

Ian

And, of course, there's always the sequencer or audio recorder... (it's on there, so I GUESS it's OK to use it, Ian?! )

Even if you just use it to capture the backing for a song from the arranger section, and go no further, you gain the ability to use the bender when you need it. But add in the ability of Yamaha's to go seamlessly from arranger play to SMFs and back again without interruption, and you can continue to use the arranger mode for most of the song, and simply get the sequencer to play the backing you WOULD have used if you stayed in arranger mode, and gain the use of the bender for the ENTIRE solo, not just the bit the chords let you use.

Then back to arranger mode, no stopping...

Best of BOTH worlds (except for the Chord Sequencer!)

The trick is to not let ANY process railroad you into a style of play. Decide what the MUSIC needs, rather than HOW you want to play it, and your options open dramatically. But the best thing is your Yamaha lets you do BOTH systems with no interruption to the creative flow. Don't ignore this feature, or Yamaha might drop it like Roland dropped my Chord Sequencer (that few understood, either!)

Use it, or lose it!

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 04-29-2008).]

Certainly...but I don't use SMF when gigging...some people do ...not that there's anything wrong with that.

Ian

If it lets me use the bender, I'll use anything I can...!

I would use a footpedal, but Roland (you know, the one with the 'pro' OS ) don't allow that particular function, and a lot of what I do involves BOTH bending up AND down, which I think you can only pick one on the Yamaha's (but it's definitely better than nothing!)

Boy, you 'home' keyboard users get ALL the good stuff!

Yep, the pedal will only do "up" or "down"...still, it is handy.

I'm just fed up being "home" with my "home" keyboard...boy, I sure miss gigging.

Ian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OANcDU8cqIg&feature=related

Does all this bending deter from actually playing? I dont get it.

You watch that, and most of it he is soloing over the same four chord progression.

A chord sequencer would have allowed him to play it once, and then solo over it without dashing back to the keyboard all the time, until it was time to change the chords. And foot-pedals would take away the need to leave the bender for fills and variation changes..

But that was some pretty darn good rock soloing, and would have sounded like doo if played without the bender! All playing the arranger stuff did was interrupt the flow.