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#232337 - 04/16/08 06:17 PM Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14494
Loc: NW Florida
I'm seeing these all over the place, now. Floor pedals with LONG recording times in them, sometimes with multiple loops, overdubbing, even some with MIDI clock...

A solo guitarist plays the first verse and chorus (or just the head, for the jazzers!) while he sings over the top. He then hits the pedal for the loop, and he solos over the top of the accompaniment that just got recorded. Or he can sing a second V/C or head and add in another rhythm part, or even a bass line, THEN solo over the top...

I even saw KT Tunstall do her hit "Black Horse and the Cherry Tree" entirely live using a looper, including percussion parts, everything... even her background vocals. Check it out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYEU91d8ngc

Pretty cool, and a LOT of guitarists in my area are using these, now.

Remind you of anything? That we USED to have?
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#232338 - 04/16/08 06:21 PM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
Roland Space Echo !
Check out:
keller williams too. NOT the real estate people!
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#232339 - 04/16/08 06:30 PM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
cassp Offline
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Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
Saw a singer-guitarist on Mackinac Island last spring using a Boss RC-20 sampler loop station. It was amazing how he could jump between sections of a song and play rhythm at times and lead at others. I see Boss has a larger and smaller edition of that loop station. They have also reissued the Space Echo (RE-20). I think this would be a useful effect for OMB, just can't quite figure out how to use it.
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#232340 - 04/17/08 12:10 AM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14494
Loc: NW Florida
I've been trying to take a good look at this http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=772

Three independent loops, lock to MIDI clock, stereo...

It's amazing that, just at the time when arrangers DROP this feature, guitarists pick up and run with it, and suddenly it's cool...!

Still not sure what I'm talking about? Think Roland... Think Chord Sequencer

These things, at least for the first pass, are pretty much EXACTLY the same as a Chord Seq. Record your accompaniment the first time through, then you play two handed (just like a guitarist!) over the top of it. Stop it at any time, change it at any time, and wow! You can actually CHANGE what the loop does in realtime, WHILE you play the solo!

It's pretty scary when guitarists can fathom what a great musical tool these can be, but arranger players (and manufacturers) could care less...

Still, stay tuned. I think I am going to get one of these to try, and see if I can use it as a faux Chord Sequencer on my G70. If it locks to MIDI clock and stays in sync, I might die happy!

Those of us that can play a secondary instrument, but don't want to give up the interactivity of arrangers could ALL use something like this, and, of course, don't get me started about playing solos with TWO hands!

Wish me luck...
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#232341 - 04/17/08 04:17 AM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

Record your accompaniment the first time through, then you play two handed (just like a guitarist!) over the top of it.
I think I am going to get one of these to try, and see if I can use it as a faux Chord Sequencer on my G70.


Awwww......(too bad)
to Quote the ROLAND SITE:

"Ultra-long recording time (up to 49 min., mono)"

What good is MONO in a keyboard player's world?


Seriously - those loopers are so much fun, and so much better than the chord sequencer. You overdub, and overdub till you have the whole band with you ! (LIVE!)
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#232342 - 04/17/08 05:27 AM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
John DiLeo Offline
Member

Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 245
Wouldn't the audience really think your faking it if you use something like this...they already know there is no band playing with you. Things like this might confuse them even more. Its bad enough arranger players get a bad rap.

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#232343 - 04/17/08 06:43 AM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
Diki, keep us informed. I think this is a great effect and could free me from some of my SMFs.
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#232344 - 04/17/08 10:11 AM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7314
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Diki, we've had the 50 since it was first introduced around a year ago, and had the smaller memory predecessors available earlier. My son actually uses the thing to perform. He lays down a bass line and plays over that with guitar, uke, octive bass...whatever.This is in a cofee-house situation and is more of an oddity for him at this time.

When I'm in a guitar playing mood, I fool with it...it's fun. I got it for Logan to fool with, so any technical questions will need to be "passed on". The English performer KT Tungstal(sp?) uses the earlier one very effectively in her stage show.

Ah, big boys and their toys!

"Big Boy" Russ

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#232345 - 04/17/08 10:13 AM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7314
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Sorry, Diki, re-read your post and see you already knew of KT and her use of the looper.

R.

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#232346 - 04/17/08 10:32 AM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14494
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
Awwww......(too bad)
to Quote the ROLAND SITE:

"Ultra-long recording time (up to 49 min., mono)"

What good is MONO in a keyboard player's world?


Seriously - those loopers are so much fun, and so much better than the chord sequencer. You overdub, and overdub till you have the whole band with you ! (LIVE!)


And up to 25 minutes STEREO.... That's three loops about eight minutes long. Sufficient for just about ANY song, I'd say...

And as for 'faking' it, c'mon, you're kidding me, aren't you? You don't for one minute think your audience thinks you are playing everything NOW, do you?

I've been thinking a bit about some tricks you could do with this that go beyond what arrangers can do, at the moment... You could, for instance, lay down a bass and drums (and guitar, maybe) loop the first time, mute those on your arranger while the loop takes over, and then be able to add the ACC parts from ANY variation over the top of it, reassemble the style, if you will. Can't do that, now...

If you have multiple arrangers, and you can get them all to lock up, you could combine say the guitar parts of one arranger, with the drums and bass of another. Or if you have a WS or loop sampler, you could combine elements of it's loopy goodness with the more traditional elements from an arranger.

One of the things that drives me crazy is the gymnastics an arranger section goes through if you are in Pianostyle Mode and you start throwing a bunch of passing chords and altered harmonizations at it. Just make the first pass with straight ahead changes, go to the loop, and then jazz your little heart out... no more glitches!

I could record my guitarist's harmony on the first pass, and he could add a second harmony the next verse!

And of course, to get back to John's point... Every time I play my trombone, the audience already sees me stop playing the arranger. I have HAD to use SMF's since I moved on from my G1000. It will be nice to go back to arranger play, and as a bonus, now I can add the trombone part TO the loop if I wish. SWEET!

Right now, I don't see any confusion on the faces of any audience that I've seen watching a guitarist with one of these things, so why would our already confused audiences be any MORE so?!
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#232347 - 04/17/08 10:38 AM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14494
Loc: NW Florida
BTW, I don't think arranger players HAVE got a bad rep from using an arranger...

The bad rep comes from a lot of them being BAD players! See chas's thread for more on this.
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#232348 - 04/17/08 01:59 PM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
John DiLeo Offline
Member

Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 245
But Diki in reality you Are controlling & playing everything when using and arranger KB, that's the fun of it. I look at it this way....either you play a solo instrument of any kind or your letting the machine do its work controlled by you & everyone knows that especially the audience. That in turn brings in to DJ level mentality everyone is thinking.

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#232349 - 04/17/08 02:22 PM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Diki,
I for one will be very interested in how you go with this.
I had never heard of this until this thread, but it looks like a very interesting and useful bit of gear.
Cheers
Dennis

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#232350 - 04/18/08 01:07 PM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14494
Loc: NW Florida
John, the problem is that there are a lot of advanced keyboard techniques that involve using BOTH hands. When your LH is mandatorily committed to HAVING to input the chords ALL the time, there go those techniques out the window.

Sure, you say, if you want to use them, use an SMF. But there goes your interactivity, out the window. What's a boy to do?

I doubt you ever tried the old Roland Chord Sequencer, but it provided the best combination of the two systems (ARR and SMF). Seamless changeover from one form to the other. You played with the arranger, when you got to a section you wanted to solo over, you'd hit the Record button, it would record JUST the chords, hit play and it temporarily took over your chords, so you could solo two handed, play another instrument, go to the bathroom, whatever!

Hit Stop on the CS, and you were back seamlessly in normal ARR play. No-one is ever the wiser (do you honestly think that many of your audience can tell the difference between you playing in ARR mode and SMF, anyway, especially now most SMF players have Markers for jumping to different sections seamlessly?).

Now for whatever boneheaded reason, Roland stopped using this revolutionary feature (from a long list of great features they dropped!), so there has been no way, especially on a Roland, which can't sync ARR and SMF, to use these techniques. This looper, if it works as advertised, could bring back at least part of what made the CS so good, and add a few more capabilities that the old CS never could.

But unless you ever tried the old CS, John, I respectfully suggest you don't understand what it could do for you. I LOVE arranger play. I love it's interactivity, re-harmonizing and restructuring on the fly. I HATE having to play the chords for a vamp or repeated section when I want to solo two handed, if I've already played them once.

Chord Sequencer, or looper, I don't care... It's the best of BOTH worlds
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#232351 - 04/18/08 01:28 PM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
John DiLeo Offline
Member

Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 245
I understand what your saying about the CS Diki....but my concerns are these. The looper means carrying & hooking up more gear, more wires etc etc is that worth the few songs you would use it for? People that dont feel the need to play with both hands versus Left chords/Rt comp/solos etc, have no need for a Cs or even miss it I would think. Not everyone plays an arranger the same at all. Why do you think Roland eliminated the CS never to return it to their models since then there must be a reason? Maybe it wasnt as popular as you thought?


or maybe you can do things like this with the looper & arranger ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQYjmSvFKqU&feature=related


[This message has been edited by John DiLeo (edited 04-18-2008).]

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#232352 - 04/18/08 01:39 PM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14494
Loc: NW Florida
Absolutely, John. If you don't use these techniques much, why WOULD you need this..?

But for all of those with well developed piano soloing styles (solos aren't necessarily just ONE note at a time, or confined to the upper section of the piano - watch a GOOD pianist sometime, and see if he dips into your LH area), or refined bender techniques, or two handed syncopated funky techniques, or those that like to play VERY outside chords over steady rhythm section play (montuņo, anyone?), or a myriad of other, legitimate non-arranger keyboard techniques, you MIGHT need this to perform, or be FORCED to use SMFs.

If you are a simple LH chord RH solo player, and especially if you learned on arrangers, and your entire ability is based around this style, of course, this is of no use whatsoever. But there ARE players that do have a different approach and ability, and any tool that allows them to express themselves with these methods is OK in my book!
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#232353 - 04/18/08 01:49 PM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
John DiLeo Offline
Member

Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 245
Well Diki good luck in your search & tryout with the looper. Please give us your thoughts after you've get your hands wet using one.

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#232354 - 04/18/08 02:04 PM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by John DiLeo:
I understand what your saying about the CS Diki....but my concerns are these. The looper means carrying & hooking up more gear, more wires etc etc is that worth the few songs you would use it for?


Even if used for just one song in the show, it's worth it!!

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#232355 - 04/18/08 02:15 PM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
"Seriously - those loopers are so much fun, and so much better than the chord sequencer. You overdub, and overdub till you have the whole band with you ! (LIVE!)"


I think the "chord sequencer" is a much better concept for the keyboardist..it also allowed for changing of styles..try that with a looping device mentioned..or changing key and tempo easily..
Want to overdub..use the on board sequencer..

Give me back Diki's chord sequencer..
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#232356 - 04/19/08 01:46 AM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14494
Loc: NW Florida
Amen, Fran.

But I've basically given up. This thread alone explains just how few people have the slightest clue as to it's incredible power. I agree, there are considerable advantages to the Roland CS (it just remembers the chords, you can STILL change VAR, fill and even styles while it runs), but the looper also has some cool advantages...

You can consider that, with THREE loops, you can run three different sections of the song and switch between them. You can overdub additional stuff to the loop (can't do that on the CS), and you can add real audio to the loop.

Exciting stuff...
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#232357 - 04/20/08 01:57 AM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
Wis Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/01
Posts: 295
The RC50 ? Is this what you are talking about?
The Roland RC50?

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#232358 - 04/20/08 02:17 AM Re: Heard a guitarist using a loop pedal?
Wis Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/01
Posts: 295
Not the Roland RC50 but the Boss RC50.
An impressing expander for your keyboard ?
I think I will go to a shop to hear and try it.

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