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#229129 - 03/14/08 02:26 PM Re: Audya video
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Al of course Ive listened to all the demos...but I not convinced at all about what this KB can do yet.....Ketron needs to really decipher whats going on for the public to get a real view of why they should buy an Audya & why would it be productive to them for their needs as arranger KB players & beyond. So far I haven't seen or heard that have you?
A few drum solos, a couple of average songs jams that honestly sound like the SD1+.
People are asking what the Audya is all about? Many people are always talking about how they THIN OUT their styles so not to be so busy.... will that be a deterrent when the Audya has So Much going on at once? Until that is demonstrated IN FULL I for one am not jumping on board this train.
That could change in the future depending on how they proceed. Wait & see is my status as of now.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-14-2008).]

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#229130 - 03/14/08 10:48 PM Re: Audya video
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14212
Loc: NW Florida
It looks and sounds pretty amazing so far, but my major concern remains...

What kind of commitment will Ketron make to increasing the number of factory styles using the "live Loop' feature, once you buy it?

Most of us have multiples of the same style, so you don't sound the same on one cha-cha as the next (or whatever!). How many styles will all be different in the Audya, and how many new styles will Ketron release a year for this proprietary format? Trust me, boys and girls... most of you are NOT going to want to prepare an entire audio style library yourselves. This is NOT editing a MIDI part or two. This is the laborious slicing and dicing of hundreds of loops (to make an entire style this way). Most of us do NOT make our best styles ourselves. We have factory ROM styles, 3rd party styles, conversions from other brands, but this format will be Ketron ONLY...

They've either got to work hard to keep our interest with new styles, or PRAY that some third party style factory wants to risk the cost (recording a good loop library is expensive) of developing for this. Because, once again trust me... you are going to want ALL your styles to be as killer-sounding as the 'live loop' ones. You are not going to be happy when SOME of your styles sound like a million bucks, and others make change..!

So.... whither Ketron?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#229131 - 03/14/08 11:49 PM Re: Audya video
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
Quantity and quality of the new styles depend only on the styles editor that they will include on Audya.

If they have some similar on Qranger, you can Import and add the all audio loops just is some minute and ready to play: http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/qranger/QrangerEMCaudio.wmv

then you have also to value the all audio loops to insert and how many you need for complete one style, this all depend of the RAM sampler available and the loading time before you can pres Play.

On Qranger you can see that I'm alble to drag&drop audio-midi files object when still the SEQ is playing, this because we use the HD Streaming. Insert, delete, copy, paste....on qranger is realy simple and all in realtime, including unlimited tracks and effects for each track.
I just made one new audio style for testing the system: 30 patterns, 350 audio wavs+mp3, 640Mb of data used for one style. Load and ready to play in less 1 second!

still I waiting to see the Audya loding one new style for value if this new P3 give the true power...
Enjoy what you play

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#229132 - 03/15/08 07:46 AM Re: Audya video
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
I watched this video demo & it was very interesting how the process of song creation is starting to take a whole new direction versus simple repetitive styles that we have used in the past....this clearly shows what can be done regarding style development & creation by the player..
Its sought of Frankensteinish in a good way but the end results can be phenomenal. What concerns me is that learning HOW TO create with this new software could be a hindrance to many who are not that familiar with all this new technology, cut/paste, vst/looping, etc, etc, what is being done to simplify, & teach the user operate all this new technology, because without this is the only way people will buy & use these products no matter how good they sound ....... I'm sure this looks very complicated to many especially if your going to switch from a conventional arranger to this new stuff. I hope in the future they will address the everyday player & make it as easy as possible.

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#229133 - 03/15/08 08:21 AM Re: Audya video
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5355
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Dont Panic
Most of what is contained in a modern arranger/organ was first only available on computers, (Great for Tech Heads) however manufactures adapted the technology so that anybody could use it. (Yes you still need a computer to go really deep, but few users need to)
As an example:
A lot of users would have shy away from VSTs, but when you see how easy it can be to use them, http://wersiworld.com/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71&Itemid=34 it becomes just another arranger/organ feature.


Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#229134 - 03/15/08 02:41 PM Re: Audya video
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14212
Loc: NW Florida
One thing that concerns me about live VSTi use is, how well does the instrument deal with overload?

In other words, when you are in the studio, and the limits of your DAW or VSTi computer are exceeded, the sound simply cuts off completely, stutters, or sometimes crashes altogether. Bad news, but not the end of the world... Re-boot, and offload some task to free up resources for the VSTi.

But in a live situation, without thoroughly testing EVERY single possible playing scenario, you can't guarantee that this won't happen, and live, this IS a tragedy...!

So.... is there any way to ensure that the CPU's resources are NEVER taxed to the point of breakdown? Some polyphony limit, or overhead meter that will warn you should you select a sound that cannot be handled, either by the CPU, or the HD?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#229135 - 03/15/08 04:01 PM Re: Audya video
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5355
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Diki
Not sure how they have done it with the VSTs, (Although interesting that you can only load 4 simultaneously) but with the rest of the instrument it is all controlled by the OAS database, (And from demos so are the VST sounds in OAS 7) and if what you are trying to load takes you over computer specs limitations then it wont allow you to load it.
If you improve your onboard computer specs, you just reload OAS with the upgrade button, (Just as if you are loading an update) and the OAS database matches itself to the new computer spec.
The above is just a basic explanation of how it works, but should give you a general picture.
Regards

Bill


[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 03-15-2008).]
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#229136 - 03/15/08 05:34 PM Re: Audya video
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14212
Loc: NW Florida
The thing is, Bill, CPU load depends on the number of voices played. It is dynamic. Unlike hardware, where the architecture is designed to give you a certain amount of polyphony, and no more (but no less!).

So how, for instance, does the OAS determine whether you can load a VSTi or not? You might only need two voices of a streaming bass voice, but the computer certainly won't know that unless you tell it in advance.

It may indeed only let you load 4 VSTi at a time, but I guarantee you, some modern VSTi can bring a fast CPU to it's knees all by themselves... This is the achilles heel of the 'open' systems, which leverage CPU's to do the work of hardware, but do NOT guarantee you how many voices you can use, nor give you a soft landing if you exceed them...

Have you ever managed to overload your CPU on your Abacus, Bill? What happens? Does the entire arranger come to it's knees, or just the VSTi? B4 is NOT going to tax this. It's pretty CPU efficient, and uses no streaming samples (or any samples at all). This is going to occur when using layered up Performances from some of the big streaming sample libraries (Goliath, Ivory, VSL, etc.).

The whole dynamic nature of VSTi's must be a nightmare for the OAS to figure out what and how much any particular VSTi is going to effect polyphony. Once you start to use these libraries for the styles, as well as your 'live' playing, this is a brick wall you are rushing towards!

Are there any printed specs on how well the OAS handles each particular VSTi?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#229137 - 03/16/08 02:03 AM Re: Audya video
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5355
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Diki
You can never be 100% guaranteed (Even hardware cant achieve that) but apart from those uses that have modified the OAS system files, I am not aware of anyone having any problems occurring in normal use.
The polyphony for the VSTs is variable (Depends on computer specs) and the way the OAS system works (Although you will need to ask the engineers if you want the technical specs) is that if you exceed the limit, the least significant note drops out. (This drop out does not affect the OAS voices (Which includes Akai samples) as these are processed separately by the SG12 PCI card)
You will need to contact Wersi Germany or Helmut Eder of Wersi Austria for more technical details.
Hope this helps

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#229138 - 03/16/08 07:12 AM Re: Audya video
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
IMO I dont think this kind of technology for "LIVE USE" with out any problems for seamless play on stage as an arranger in a live navigational situation is anywhere near ready for at least 10 more years until it is perfected....sure it looks interesting, mixing & matching all kinds of VST things, but when your under pressure & need split second flowing changes without glitches or hindrance of any kind they have a long way to go for my needs. I'm going to just sit back and watch the progress in the years to come before I even think of a purchase of this type of arranger unit. Maybe in studio/recording use it might be feasible....but not in live use on stage under performance pressure top of that they need to TEACH the mainstream everyday player how to operate all the features & fight "old School" way of thinking too which is not an easy task.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-16-2008).]

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