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#226812 - 02/16/08 03:56 AM Re: Yamaha Tyros 2: What's needed to bring it up to par
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Finally got a bit of time to write a bit fuller explanation that I promised earlier in the week
When we come to the sound of a Saxophone (In its simplest form) we basically have 2 parts, the articulations and the sound itself, and so to make an accurate Sax sound we need to emulate both accurately.
Due to the way a blown instrument is played and the way a keyboard is played, it is not possible for either instrument to truly accurately emulate the articulations (Operation) of the other, but you can get close.
Sax Sound
This is the basic sound of the Sax itself, and as most keyboards use sampling (Recordings of the real instrument) this can be made to sound excellent, with the limitations being the number of samples that can be stored in the instrument, (The more samples the better) due to the limitations of the available memory in hardware boards they at present cannot compete with software based VSTs etc, but by using clever sampling techniques they certainly do well.
Sax Articulations
Articulations on the other hand are related to how the Sax responds to the players input, and to emulate these you either need a vast amount of samples, (So that when it is played on the keyboard it has suitable samples to play back) or to use sound modelling, where how the instrument reacts is measured and converted into a mathematical formula (Algorithm) which alters the sound in real time (Just like a real player) as you play the keyboard.
The main problems of the sample approach is that you need to use a large amount or memory or disc streaming, where as the sound modelling approach requires fast processing, both of which are currently only generally available in computer based systems, (The main exceptions being the Kurtzweill instruments) and so hardware boards have to take second place.
Yamaha marketing and their R & D however realised that while for true studio production fast computers were needed for accuracy, for the home market (Which is the market arrangers are aimed at) they could simplify this and still give a sound that would impress their intended market, and so SA was born, (For the Pro market this was expanded into EA voices, which give a lot more flexibility and control of the articulations that Workstation uses require, (Or so Yamaha thought, however if you look at a lot of forums the Pros actually prefer the way the home version is implemented) and which uses a much simplified sound modelling technique (Steps rather then continuous variation) and added in just a few more samples to give a more impressive sound.
Coming onto the Korg Sax and Yamaha SA Sax, then the articulations on the Yamaha easily beat the Korg, but the basic sound of the Korg easily beats the Yamaha, and when you compare the 2 with a real Sax (Or a high quality recording) the Korgs basic sound wins out over the Yamahas articulations, thus the Korg Sax sounds more like a real Sax.
Now if you could add the Yamaha articulations to the Korg sound then “WOW” that would be something, however for the time being to me and others, the sound of the Korg Sax sounds more real then the Yamaha SA Sax.
In the end it comes down to personal opinion, and only the individual can decide this.
I hope the above explains better what I was trying to put over in my earlier posts.

Bill
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#226813 - 02/16/08 01:45 PM Re: Yamaha Tyros 2: What's needed to bring it up to par
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I think you pretty much nailed it, Bill...

The thing for me is, as a horn player, while the tone of the horn is quite important, what you do with it is the primary thing. Occasionally, you'll hear a genius sax player (a little Bird tells me) playing quite a lousy horn (Bird recorded some amazing stuff on a cheap plastic horn). It's pretty much an ideal illustration of the fact that the horn's tone, though somewhat important, has next to nothing to do with a great performance.

So, to do the best job of imitating a horn PLAYER (rather than a horn), the ability to articulate, to put expression (or motion, if you will) into something that is essentially static is of primary importance. Yes, ideally, we would all love to see the marriage of Korg's tone with Yamaha's SA technology, but the nature of patents and competition make this unlikely. But, getting too hooked on the tone, at the expense of the playability can only limit you to what you want to play. If you HAVE to play a certain line, because that's the only way the horn samples will work without starting to sound like a keyboard, that tone starts to become a liability, rather than a strength.

Yamaha's SA sax is the first thing that I have ever heard that allows you the freedom to play what YOU want to play, rather than what the horn sample will allow you to play. A certain amount of tone sacrifice for that ability is a price I am more than happy to pay.

I have always wanted to sound like a sax PLAYER. You work with a dozen sax players, they got a dozen different tones. Some better than others, and often the better player may not have the best tone. HE'S the guy I want to sound like...
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#226814 - 02/16/08 04:00 PM Re: Yamaha Tyros 2: What's needed to bring it up to par
chony Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/10/04
Posts: 1247
Loc: New York
Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
Coming onto the Korg Sax and Yamaha SA Sax, then the articulations on the Yamaha easily beat the Korg, but the basic sound of the Korg easily beats the Yamaha, and when you compare the 2 with a real Sax (Or a high quality recording) the Korgs basic sound wins out over the Yamahas articulations, thus the Korg Sax sounds more like a real Sax.
Bill


Bill, I'm going to have to assume that you've never actually used the Yamaha sax. Maybe you've heard it on YouTube or somewhere but not in the flesh. I'm not a dieheart Yamaha fan - remember I'm the one asking them to learn from Korg - but I just don't see how the Korg Pa1xs sax "sound" (forget articulations), sounds as good or better than the Yamaha...

Bass, drums, pianos and strings to name a few, now that's a different story. Korg wins out easily in that department.

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#226815 - 02/16/08 05:53 PM Re: Yamaha Tyros 2: What's needed to bring it up to par
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi,
better style creation & editing functions, be lost without the 3rd party software written by people like michael , jorgen & jos.

The abitily for the pads to sync like my korg PA800 pads ( has 1 additional function)

sustain pedal "controller 64" in style tracks.
Took me a while to realize why some of the piano tracks converted from othe brands sounded chopped off especially arpeggio's. The styles used the sustain pedal , yamaha doesn't.
Same goes when trying to convert BIAB styles. Sustain is used. Conversions require too much editing in trying to lengthen the notes to emulate sustain.
( I'm basing this on my PSR1500, I'm assuming the T2 doest use controller 64 either in it's style tracks?)

best wishes
Rikki

best wishes
Rikki.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chony:
[B]
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best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#226816 - 02/16/08 06:00 PM Re: Yamaha Tyros 2: What's needed to bring it up to par
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Rikki... Several computer sequencers have a 'Sustain to Note Length' command, that easily converts any CC64 commands into the actual note length.

Hope this helps.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#226817 - 02/17/08 12:22 AM Re: Yamaha Tyros 2: What's needed to bring it up to par
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Diki,
thank you.
my pc sequencer does actually lengthen notes, but I think it's done by a percentage value ?? Haven't actually come across the option you mentioned, if I'm reading it correctly .
I've only got a couple of inexpensive sequencers PT12 & XGWorks.
For what I use them for ie a bit of style editing, buying one of the more expensive ones like Sonar or cubase wouldn't be worthwhile.

Sorry , I'm a bit down, I thought I'd found a simple way of converting BIAB styles to PA800 format, by using Micheal Beddersom's Stylemaker "BIAB conversion" option for PSR styles, then putting it thru EMC to convert it to Korg Format.
I'd forgotten about the lack of sustain controller within PSR styles.
BIAB styles seem to use sustain in all sorts of tracks. By the time I lengthen all the notes , I might as well do it midi to style for the PA800 & probably get a better result anyway.

Probably why I stopped trying to convert BIAB styles to PSR format in the first place.
Becoming more & more of a feather brain daily. haahaa.

thank you for the suggestion ,though.

best wishes
Rikki
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Rikki... Several computer sequencers have a 'Sustain to Note Length' command, that easily converts any CC64 commands into the actual note length.

Hope this helps.
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#226818 - 02/17/08 12:53 AM Re: Yamaha Tyros 2: What's needed to bring it up to par
chony Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/10/04
Posts: 1247
Loc: New York
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Rikki... Several computer sequencers have a 'Sustain to Note Length' command, that easily converts any CC64 commands into the actual note length.

Hope this helps.


Can Cubase do this?

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#226819 - 02/17/08 12:13 PM Re: Yamaha Tyros 2: What's needed to bring it up to par
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
Quote:
Originally posted by chony:

Fact 1:Yamaha T2s SA sounds are indisputabley better than anything else out there. I don't think this is a "subjective" issue


"indisputabley better" ??? And that's a Fact? No roon for bias or preference?
Sheesh ... who ARE you?
Of course it's subjective.
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#226820 - 02/17/08 01:56 PM Re: Yamaha Tyros 2: What's needed to bring it up to par
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Chony,
sorry , wouldn't have a clue. My wording might have been a bit misleading.
I just assummed Diki was refferring to something a bit more upmarket like Sonar or Cubase.
Going back , the top of the line sequencers used to have the better editing facilities.

Nowadays I just use Powetracks 12. Pretty much does everything I need. Trying to upgrade my old Win95 cubase to current standard was just too expensive.

PT12 will lengthen notes, it's done by specifying a percentage. Bit of trial & error though getting the correct % so that a piano arpeggio will play back smoothly.
The one thing I really find usefull, is that it can split up a drum track into individual drum instruments. Snare on one track, Hi hat on another etc etc
Makes editing velocities or reassigning drums from one type to another so much easier.

We might need to ask Diki which of the sequencers will do what he mentioned.

best wishes
Rikki
Quote:
Originally posted by chony:
Can Cubase do this?
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#226821 - 02/17/08 02:04 PM Re: Yamaha Tyros 2: What's needed to bring it up to par
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Rikki, I know it's going to sound sexist, but it's got to be a gender thing (as in, the absense of testosterone). I can't help but wonder how much better the world (well, at least, this board) would be if the rest of us could master your social skills. Props. Seriously.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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