My first comparison between the G70 and E-60..

First let me explain..I was cancelled last night and did not perform with the E-60...I will use it tonight...


My first comparison statement,,,"the G70 is superior in every way"...but surprisingly not by much in many categories..

In fact the E-60 has a couple edges over the G70...namely speakers for at home monitoring and very small venues..and two headphone jacks...never know when you need to share a headphone..

The E-60 key feel is better than any other board I have played that list under $3,900..except the G70..that includes the PA800 and SD1plus..The Yamaha's are also a lesser feel..to me..The keys are full size and proper throw..

The E-60 lacks the aftertouch the G70 gives me...for some that is not a big deal...personally I like aftertouch..it can be a useful controller..

The G70 pianos are better, but the E-60 pianos are no slouches..some are very good...one thing I have noticed the E-60 pianos have a heavier thump on the last octave..similar to the DisCover 5 acoustic pianos..
There are several new styles on the E-60, and some are really great...The E-60 reads all the styles from my G70 card including the styles missing that I like on the G70..

Other areas the G70 towers over the E-60 ..Mic input and harmonizer[this we already knew]..but I miss the audio inputs to control laptops and other audio signals via G70 control..Also the insert effects are missing some effects that this feature uses and are not needed on the E-60

When I first listened to demos last year , I was convinced that the sounds were less quality in the E series..When I listened to Roland's style demos[same styles were better quality on the G70 demos]..In the real comparison..not so much..I still think there is an edge with the G70 quality but not as far apart as the demos showed..

I listened to common styles with both instruments thru identical sound systems and headphones...This E-60 lacks nothing..they are so close..only a side by side comparison can give a hint with only a few sounds...

The G70 uses the VK organ in it's one touch settings , of an otherwise same setting as the E-60..Same with the piano[the grand X] to the E-60 [natural piano]..

A few other things I do miss with the E-60 that are available on the G70...The extra upper 3 part and the extra lower 2 part...The 3rd split naturally is also missing.

I also miss the dedicate Keyboard mode split button..There is a work-a-round using the arranger button and turning off the accomp..

The lay outs are almost identical[menu window] and easily similar enough to navigate without boo boos while performing..

I will post again after I use the E-60 on the gig, but I am pretty sure there will be no big surprises..this board was an excellent choice as my second/back up board..

Adi mentioned on another post that I will find myself using the E-60 more and more...He is most likely correct..

The G70 is still my all time favorite board...and I will always use it for my solo work where I need a vocalizer and the audio input...and the VK organ mode that I am use to..same with the piano..and key feel..There is no substitute..but I am not replacing the G70...
and with that this E-60 is a keeper..

Cass, you will have to look for your own deal...

Diki, I have to believe you haven't tried the E-60 yet..sure it is not the G70 [twice the price]...but if you looked at it with an open mind...you would shake your head and say "cool"..


BTW: the E-60 comes in at 28 pounds..the G70 is 46 pounds..that is 18 pounds lighter [for those that this would make a difference]...In fact it is lighter than the PA800[61 keys] and the Tyros 2[61 keys]..

That is close to 40 percent lighter than the G70...Makes it sound a lot lighter than some folks made it out to be..


More to come..

PS: Cass , just in case..make me a standing offer...

Fran, things sound encouraging. Maybe I'll have the 3K sold by time you come around to saying, "I like the E-60, but I just have to have my G70." In that case, you have my address.

Cassp,

I do hope you get to actually play an E-60 before you buy.

Ian

I wanted to mention the quality of the E-60 build..It is a very well constructed keyboard..lots of plastic to keep it lighter..but it has metal reinforcement under the keybed, and other locations. The build design is better than others at twice the price..

I also just A, B'd identical SMF's thru the same sound system..trying a couple that I used makeup tools to edit the sequence..There seems to be a different tone between the G70 and E-60 with the same named drum kit..Standard 1 as an example..not bad , but definitely different..The edge goes to the G70..

Individual part EQ is not available on the E-60, but was not a factor in this comparison..

I will give a follow up after the weekend..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 01-12-2008).]

Let me know when you find one. Maybe you can drop it off; I'm at exit 37 off I-75 south of Detroit.

Cass , I agree with Ian...It would be best for you to try an E-60 first..ideally while you still own the PSR 3000..a side by side would do the trick for you..

Cass, seriously, I think I know what works for you [as well as you do ]..You want a light keyboard [28 pounds], with extended key range[76]..that also feels good with proper size.

Decent pianos and organs...

So far it sounds like your V-combo.

Great SMF playback and edits that you miss from the G70...and a easy OS..

Very usable styles with a sound that sounds like a band...yet turn off the auto stuff and you got sounds that will cut through with the band..

I don't think I ever steered you wrong...yet

Don't worry about trying the board if the above meets your requirements...call George now....BTW: you see how hard it is to find an E60?

I am pretty sure the resale value would be terrific..

I like yamaha the best...

Just kidding.. Very nice review.. GC does not have any arrangers so I'd have to take a trip to even see any of these..

[This message has been edited by beachbum (edited 01-12-2008).]

Fran, very thorough review. Lots of bang for the buck for sure. Good luck with the e60.

Thanks for the review, Fran. Pretty much what I expected.

In fact, I have NEVER said the E60 to be an inferior arranger, except when compared to a G70..! You are right, I've never heard one in person, although I've listened to everything done on one that is on the web (pretty much!). I think it's a great arranger, pound for pound, sound for sound, bang for the buck, build quality...

The only thing I've been saying is, for someone that already owns a G70, it's weight difference and speakers doesn't balance what they would lose by using it on some of their gigs, at least, FOR ME. For anyone that wants a 76, if you can't afford or can't carry a G70 or PA2Xpro, it seems almost a no-brainer, with virtually no competition at that price point. But if you already have one...

But that's pretty much just me. I don't like multiple rigs. I like to get so familiar with just one piece of kit I don't have to think about it for an instant, I can just do it! Back to the music, for me. Hard won familiarity with a great keyboard is a fragile gift to give away (remember, once you get used to the E60, you'll have to double-clutch when you are back on the G70), at least for me... Others' mileage may vary.

I just don't like getting keyboards for fun (at least, to gig on). Once I've made my mind up that a keyboard is BETTER than what I have (at least significantly!), that's all I want to play until there's something a LOT better. I don't want to play my old G1000 (except for the Chord Sequencer) now I have a G70. And I don't want to move from the G70 until something REALLY significant comes out. So far, nothing....

But anyhoo... Don't listen to me... everybody go out and buy an E60, ASAP...! It really IS a great arranger at it's price point and form factor. A 76 is a wonderful thing if you like to play piano style for a change (got to be a FEW of you that can play piano out there)...

Nice review Fran. I tend to agree with Diki on this one. The longer I keep my Yamaha series (2000/3000/900), the more I can just concentrate on using the best it offers and get my songs done better each time. Has everyone tried the Roland G70 styles in the S900 - WOW!

zuki

i am glad you like it, fran.

btw zuki, what i'd like to hear is s900 styles on e60... any ideas?

[This message has been edited by adimatis (edited 01-13-2008).]

edited for typos. sorry for uneven lines.
my mac browser's fault most of the time.
it's a drag to me too for my stuff to always be hard to read.

excellent review Fran. as an E60 user who only tried G70 in a store for an hour I did learn a few things. i use only bass/drums so i am not the typical user. only things i miss from G70 is pedal controller (seriously miss that) and mic input/harmonizer (input only for even more convenience than my nearby mixer- and harmonizer to use primarily as a vocal tuner--when I had genesys pro i set it for unison and pitch correction, and when u r not right near me u couldn't hear my voice, only mic, and pitch corrector makes even those with very good pitch sound even better,if it's used very subtly.

but i would not trade the portability and the
onboard speakers (nice and loud too for monitoring) and a backup unit for same price as one G70. but like Diki says--that's just ME.

I'm finishing up my CD: MO & MADAFO (he plays bongos/handpercussion)and will shoot some samples to y'all next week or so..I'm on E60
all the way 6 tunes , vocals on 2, sopranino
sax on one. I use piano, elec piano, piano/strings, harmonica, organ, scat vocals,
nylon spanish guitar. plus bass/drum swing, bossa, mambo, boogie blues.The piano sound is my own modification of Classic Piano on upper and Superior Piano on lower end. I think
you will be amazed how close to real piano it sounds. Natural piano on G70 and E60 are far
inferior. i played them for rec engineer at session and he agreed not even close to mine.
For organ i combined All Skate w/Organ Bass
(layered/not split)and it's very B3-ish

This follows CD i made just prior called ME AND MY 'NINO which features my sopranino sax and vocals w/a regular trio rhythm section.
pianist/organist Brian Murphy plays his ASS
off, i think u B3 guys will flip when u hear him. this will be first time i ever posted stuff on any forum. I'm a little nervous about the sharpshooters here, but bring it on!!!! I'm feeling confident, because i did my best here and if not up to what u guys expected, I'll know i need to get better.
I'm only 68 so have 20 more years to improve
(at least)

------------------
Miami Mo

[This message has been edited by keysvocalssax (edited 01-13-2008).]

Well I finally got to use the E-60 are the job last night...Cass , can you email me your shipping address..

Just kidding

The E-60 worked perfectly with the band..it didn't miss a beat..

I even found a couple short cuts while playing..namely the split icon on the main screen and the icon for the transpose was there too..still not as functional as the G70, but workable..

This stage [Alfe's] is crowded and normally a pain getting the keyboard out of the case and maneuvering to the stand [G70 to an Apex stand].But the lighter E-60 was a pleasure in this situation..

There is no obstacle in the learning curve...more than 90 % the same..

Now that I have some time , I will set up the user programs, that I am use to using on the G70..including the same styles from the G70[custom locations].

After playing the "toy" keyboards the past month [looking for something that would fill this need]..It was a pleasure playing the E-60 keys..true they are not the G70 key bed, but much better than the last 3-4 entries I tried this month..

Some of the things I used on the E-60 that I normally use with the G70..the D-beam for sound effects and instruments,,,with identical results..

What I did miss was the sliders for quick changes..this I will have to adjust to the new method [select and data wheel]..

I also noticed the modulation control has a short motion to it compared to the G70..Here I rather use the G70 with a full motion..
The other noticeable difference is the mixer button that selects levels of style/ song/ and keyboard parts..where as the G70 has the individual dedicated buttons for the same groups...It didn't take me long to get use to it though..

To recap things..There are a few differences in operation..nothing that would screw up your performance..

As a side bar..another reason why I like this E-60..as I typed this post and my other post at Roland-arranger.com....my 11 year old gran daughter was playing the E-60..It only took a minute for me to set it up for her..

Hi Fran,
great comparison.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fran Carango:
[B]

Fran,
I'm glad you are happy with your purchase. I"m glad it got to you for your weekend playing. All the way from Sunny California!


------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

Fran,
I'm wondering why you didn't mention in your comparison the differences in the drum sounds.
To me the new drum sounds of E-60 (taken from E-80) are far better than G-70 and are the real plus of these small arranger keyboards.
What do you think about it?

o3bor..thanks for verifying the drum difference.....but I prefer the G70 drums over the E-60 drums..I guess it is a matter of individual preference..
Could be I am use to the G70..and maybe you are use to the E-80..


George , thanks for the E-60...shipping received without a mark on the box [FedEx}..

I just spent some more time A, B ing the drums...most of the drums [kits and accessory sounds are identical] with some pitch and filter changes..
The G70 sounds more to my liking for the most part...I do like both instruments' drum sets..

The G70 is richer on the cymbals..more harmonics and decay differences than on the E-60..A more natural feel to me..I am sure that most of the drum kits can be edited on the G70 to match the E-60..if someone wanted the E sound...

I don't see either instrument drums as "far better"..unless we are comparing drums of another brand..

Fran,
Of course if you compare drum kits having the same name in both keyboards there's no big difference, but did you check the "New Pop", "New Rock" and other "New Xxx" drum kits of E-60 and compare them to the corresponding Pop, Rock, etc. drum kits of G-70?
As you say, it's always a matter of taste, but to me the "New Xxx" drum kits sound more natural and expressive.

[This message has been edited by o3bor (edited 01-14-2008).]

o3bor..Yes I did, and the "new" kits are great..They are very much different than the kits you mentioned to compare..I think you wanted me to compare to the V-kits on the G70..

I think they were designed to be different..These "new" drum kits..do not have the same realistic sound when compared to the velocity controlled drums on the G70..The E-60 "new" kits get louder as the velocity is increased, but do not have the tonal changes the G70 V-drums offer..

I am sure this in part are larger[multi] samples within the G70..

I like the "new" drum kits..they are done well, but do not have the same full dynamics of the G70 V-drums..

Very noticeable on the "new" kits..are the extended cymbal samples[most likely looped]..They work great, but could be a tad too long in situations..I also like the way the G70 re-triggers when striking these cymbals while they are ringing,,,another benefit of velocity switching..

But over all I do agree the E-60 is a great drum kit instrument..like it's big brother..

Let me take back part of my statement..about the tonal changes via velocity..The E-60 definitely does change...maybe just a little different than the G70...I very much like the "new" kits..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 01-14-2008).]

Fran great reviews....cant wait to get my hands on that E60 tomorrow at your studio...after breakfast

Oh Donny, be careful. Fran is a sly one and he'll have you buying George's other E-60 before you know it. Seriously, why aren't there any out there? This sounds like a great board for those (?like me?) who don't want the bulk of the G70 and would also like speakers. We need deals!!!


...anyone interested in a LN PSR3000?

Cassp that 3k should be a cinch to sell asap.....then you can pick up a E60 I'm sure....maybe even Frans, he's had it too long already

It's nice to see the E-60 work out so well for you, Fran, but I have this gut feeling that you won't be keeping it too long.

I don't mean this in a negative way, but I believe it is too similar to the G70, and because it doesn't really have more than the latter, there is really nothing much to explore beyond what you've already achieved on the G70.


I think it will be just a passing fancy like the previous keyboards, and once the honeymoon of a "new" instrument has passed, you will sell it and try something else with new things to explore....nothing wrong with that.

In any case, it is cool that it will serve as a substitute for the G70 on certain gigs...definitely lighter and easier to manage and that's got to count for something.

All the best of luck with it.

Ian

Every hour that goes by..this E-60 is securing a home here with me..The E-60 is one of the most overlooked [maybe because we can't find them] keyboards on the market..

How good is the E-60...maybe it would have been enough keyboard to make me keep over my trusted G1000...

For those that don't know...that is a stamp of approval

In fact another few days and the E-60 will become..."not available"...Sorry Cass

I can not think of another board, that meets as many needs for me..than the E-60..and I am talking about the other boards at twice the price..not the PA800, not the Tyros2, not the SD series..while all of these are great boards..the E-60 allows me the benefit of what makes the G70 great..
All the goodies in my back up/second board..

I can not recommend this board enough to those that want a Roland arranger..in a lighter package, without too many compromises..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 01-14-2008).]

Hey, Fran, that's cool...nice to see someone so happy with a purchase.

Have fun.

Ian

Ian, you know what it is?

The keyboard surpassed my expectations...

Yes, Fran, sometimes that happens, and when it does, it takes a lot of pressure away from looking to find that certain instrument.

I know Cassp will be pleased at your review, and will make buying one less of a game of chance.

I tried an E-60 for most of an afternoon, whilst on tour in Newfoundland(only dealer in my territory that had one!) and I found it a great sounding instrument, and MUCH lighter than it's appearance led you to believe.

But, does that mean you aren't going to try any more "toys"?

Ian

Are you kidding......

I know, I know...what was I thinking?

Well this morning after a wonderful breakfast & watching Fran hoof down a spectacular portion of "Bananas Foster Waffles" topped with mounds of whipped cream like a 12 year old little boy we ventured back to the Studio & I got my first chance to Look at and actually Play a Roland E60 which was proudly perched on the top tier of his TOTL Flagship Roland G70 arranger.

At first glance I was very impressed with the Look & Design. Sleek, elegant, built with Roland quality with a very sturdy mix of hard case "Plastic & Metal" with a nice overall professional color scheme. Layout & buttons all of top quality, multi colored lighted & just the right feel and size for easy navigation on the deck face. The touch screen display although not color is crisp, clean, and very well illuminated for reading & making changes with more buttons along the sides for fast changes, eg: makeup tools, exit, etc, etc. At 18 or so pounds lighter then the G70 it is a pleasure to carry & transport. With 76 keys it is a pleasure to play.....& the Key-feel is very nice, somewhere in between the G70(which are longer) & the PA800 to my touch....great spring tension also. The on-board Speakers are very adequate for home use. Dual headphone front jacks are a nice touch also.
I immediately was able to get around the E60 and go though the styles which are very nice & very Live playing useful thru all the variations....skimming thru the sounds is a cinch and most really sound wonderful & robust which Roland is known for. Piano, Trumpet, Alto Sax, Strings, Accordions & Guitars were super for sure, velocity sensitive makes for very expressive playing them.... Another added very useful feature is the "D" beam. Getting familiar with the E 60 was very easy for me because of my previous ownership of the G1000, E600, Discover 5, & G70 arrangers.
Great sequencer also....
Although there is no Mic processor on the E60.... Anyone that sings easily can route vocals thru a Mixer with Efx instead with no problem. There is SO much more to get into regarding the E60's features to list here...I can truly recommend the E60 arranger to anyone who is looking for a professionally feature packed, Great sounding 76 KEY Arranger Keyboard that you will definitly enjoy playing.. I wish I could have spent more time with it....to tell you more.
BEST Bang for the buck for sure.

Thanks


PS. Cass dont wait grab one of these asap ....your gonna love it!




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-15-2008).]

While they are perched on top of each other, Fran, could you do a few direct A/B's of the same patches?

Please make sure that Mastering Tools presets are the same (if the E60 has Mastering tools, if not, defeat them on the G70).

I have heard a few things done on the Classic piano (supposedly the same as the GrandX patch in the G70), but it sounds MUCH darker, duller, whatever... Perhaps there is a cutoff tweak that could get it MUCH closer, but only someone with both would be able to compare. After that, it might be easier to see if Roland have compromised with shorter samples, or fewer.

Also, with the both of them sent to the same monitors, it might be possible to determine if the quality of the D/A's is the same, or has Roland cut corners a little (they tend to do this, like with the G1000/G600 comparison).

This is a fascinating opportunity to find out empirically what Roland do to make something SO close (in certain ways) to a G70 so affordable. Just be SURE you are doing apples to apples (make sure, for instance, that any Part EQ is defeated on both arrangers) and the volumes are identical (meters should be the same).

Diki, I have done exactly that..I run the E-60 into the Audio inputs on the G70..and listen from the G70 headphones or out put to sound system..

The classic piano is the closest to the Grand X [so close I can't tell the difference]..and yes the filter can brighten the classic piano more...

I turn all effects off , including keyboard and master effects..and I balance the volume levels of the E and G...
The dynamics from each keybed is very similar too..

I originally thought[last year] that the sounds were different[from on line demos]..but, now I believe they are the same...even the blow alto vib and jazz scat are identical..

I searched to see how large the wav memory is, but can't find it anywhere..

I think that the E-60 is more keyboard than I and many others thought it would be..

The built quality is nothing like the EXR series..in fact I think it may be better built than the VA series[VA-7]..

As I mentioned earlier..what is missing from the G-70:

The keys are less weighted, but still fun to play.

No vocal input or harmonizer..

one less lower and upper tone selections..

No audio inputs..

No mastering effects other than bass enhancement for speakers..

No color screen[16 gray shades]..

Smaller internal memory [17mgs].

Also no separate part eq..

And the E-70 lost 18 pounds somewhere..


If someone stole both my G70 and my E-60...the first board I would replace first, would be the G70, because we must remember, all these great features are comparing to the G70..and true to form the G70 is better..

But , If I was in no need of a mic input/harmonizer, and audio inputs...The E-60 makes every bit of sense..You have all the Covers, and all the sequencing power too and reads the G70 data from the G70 card..even from my 1 gig card..

So, the E-60 would make a fine (and much lighter) alternative to the G70, considering the user wouldn't have need of the vocal feature.

The other major benefit would be the on board speakers.

That's good to know, Fran.

A very well done evaluation, I must say.

Ian

Ian, I believe that is true..I have going through 100's of sounds, playing via midi from the G70 keybed..and the like named sounds are virtually identical sounding..

The classic piano was my favorite when I first played the E-60..no wonder ..it is nearly if not exactly like the grand X..[with a little filtering]..

I really would like to know if Roland is using the same sound chip[ or most of the same sounds without compression to reduce the wav size]..

Here is my suggestion to Roland..Add the mic input and audio ins..and maybe the vocalist too...even for another $500.. It puts the board in a "must have" price range..even at 64 polyphony..

Even without my suggestion..The E-60 is a winner..There is no competition in a 76 key arranger..

I think the 64 note poly could be a limitation for some, but, then again, that may not be as big an issue considering there are "one less lower and upper tone selections".

E-60s are pretty scarce...I've only seen ONE in all the stores in my territory which is the four Atlantic provinces.

G70 was the same...just one...and most of the stores I visit are quite large and well stocked.

Roland's arranger marketing, at least here in Canada, seems to be a bit slipshod...too bad as these 'boards are good products.

Ian

Diki, I have run across several sounds that definitely do not have the same quality of the same patches on the G70..especially in the mid range..Some tones , can hardly be heard in the low range on the E-60 where they are fine on the G70..I think Roland has left some sounds as close as possible to the G70, but across the board [pun intended]..The G70 sound bank is superior...
If you didn't have the boards side by side and scrutinizing every key at different velocities..you would not know there to be a difference...

I have the program change from the G70 to the E-60..selects the same or similar patch and made it easy to compare them..After 500 patches or so...my conclusion is the wav sample rom is definitely smaller than the G70...but they did a heck a of job on this board..

Thanks, Fran. Pretty much (again) as I expected.

It is unbelievable just how bad Roland's distribution has gotten on the arranger line. At first, I thought it was just a US issue, with the move from MI to CK dealers, but from Ian's post, and many others' from Europe, that this is a corporate decision at the highest level.

Yamaha must be laughing their heads off at this colossal marketing misstep... To be honest, were it not for how difficult to demo and purchase the E60 is, their stance on having NO 76 at all might cost them a LOT more than it already has...

I have scoured the net and called a dozen CK dealers looking for anyone who even knows anything about the E-60. The dealers are completely in the dark on this one. Not only do they not stock them, they don't want to order them. It seems Roland makes the dealers buy more than one or two. One dealer near me has 12 G70's and has only sold two. She says that electronic keyboard players never come into that store, and they only sell a few digital console pianos. They are basically a Steinway and grand piano dealer. Even the GC's that are CK dealers only stock a few lines; no E's at all.

What a shame. Roland is shooting itself in the leg and missing the boat on this - BIG TIME.

Besides, now Fran won't be selling the E-60 to me for a lot longer than I planned

E-60s and G70s were never big sellers, at least in my territory.

Roland RD series...yes...very successful, as well as the FP pianos and their synth and workstations are very popular...just not the arrangers.

Roland Canada distributes arrangers to all Roland dealers, not just certain types as they seem to do in the USA.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-15-2008).]

This hardly sounds like they were available to try and purchase widely, Ian...

It is SO hard to sell something if only one dealer in your entire area even had one, once (he still got one?)_ Imagine how poorly the S900 would sell if nobody but one dealer stocked them, and you were not allowed to purchase one online (Roland forbid internet sales by their CK dealers).

Just be grateful that, even though they ARE arrogant and unresponsive to their customers (or potential customers), at least Yamaha aren't complete morons at marketing...!

The E60 has been out for well over a year. And yet here we are, only recently getting much user info, and all of that is positively glowing. If they were total dogs, you might expect to see not much interest past the initial curiosity. But we can see this is not so.

It is simply that so few have seen one in person that they aren't selling...

Diki,

Yep, Roland have done a poor marketing job, to be sure.

Part of my job is educating salespeople on how to demo a Yamaha arranger, from the smallest PSR to the Tyros2, including CVP Clavinova.

I am available to the sales staff on-line as well, and I provide extra styles, and other little perks that help sell the product and/or can be used as after the sale follow-ups ...perhaps to get the customer back in the store and possibly sell them something else.

I even go to some customer's homes and take them through the functions of the Yamaha TOTL and mid range arrangers.

Roland does NONE of that, at least not in my area.

I think they are the "arrogant" ones as they believe the arranger will sell itself...hasn't worked so far.

Dealers don't have much confidence in a product when the company itself has very little enthusiasm for promoting and supporting it.

It's too bad, as Roland arrangers are fine instruments...they deserve better than the little support provided by the company who seem to feel they don't need it.

That's arrogance, my friend.


Ian

Fran,

Can you tell me how good is Guitar mode for live playing?

As far as I understood, it could be only used for live playing and guitar solo only (without backing ie. without playing together with styles). Is that true?

Also, I haven't heard anything but nylon strings guitar demo, and I know there is also electric guitar but don't know how does it sound. Is there possibility to play electric guitar with some effects (fuzzy, distortion, etc.) for music like Pink Floyd (Time, Another brick in the wall...) or Santana (Samba pa ti)?

One more thing, how does the sound of E-60 compares to the sound of other TOTL arrangers, are there sounds that are multi-sampled per velocity, so that You hear different sound depending on how hard You play the keys (from one instruments to whole section of instruments for orchestral sounds like strings and brass, or different breath simulation for brass instruments that resembles actual brass player)? I hope You will understand what I meant. ;-)

Thanks.

I'm interested, Fran...how does the Roland E-60 compare to the Korg PA-800...really?

I know it probably has a better feeling keyboard, and of course, more keys, but what about the sounds?

Better piano? How about the Sax? Guitars? Electric Pianos like the Rhodes?

I know you don't want to offend your friends, Donny and Dave, so go easy, but what is the real skinny between the two instruments?


Ian the Curious

Ian said, I think they are the "arrogant" ones as they believe the arranger will sell itself...hasn't worked so far.

This is totally correct, but I'd like to change the word arrogant to "stupid." If a dealer can't sell one online, has to buy a half-dozen to even get the product and doesn't stock or know anything about the product, IT CANNOT SELL. That's stupid, not arrogant. It's as if Roland decided not to sell these arrangers in North America.

Kalimero and Ian, Surely you know I am prejudice towards Roland..

"for me", I think the Roland arrangers sound better than their same class competition does..without any reservations..

The pianos, choirs, strings, basses,etc are no match for the Korg, Yamaha and Ketron boards.. Doesn't mean the others are not great sounds..just the Roland sounds more natural and pleasing.."to me"..

Ian, as how I think the E-60 compares to the PA800..knowing that they are completely different in many ways...

The Korg has the advantage of the mic inputs, audio inputs and a mp3 option...other than that..I would prefer, the E-60 over the PA800, for all of the other reasons and features...Sounds, operation, editing,key feel and range, and construction[built]..
At half the price of the PA800..it is a better value..

Guitar mode has been mentioned on another site to be possible to write in user styles..I can not confirm this, but you do need to learn some playing technique to use it..

Overall the big guy[G70] is still unsurpassed in quality, sounds, harmonizer, etc...for "my Needs"..

First and foremost , If I can't stand the keys..it has to go..Even the best sounds are not enjoyable if it feels like a toy..you can reverse this and even mediocre sounds are better played on a proper weighted , and proper sized keys..

They could be stupidly arrogant?

Whatever the word, or words, dealers who carry the Roland line in my territory know little of the capabilities of the G70 and E-60...the local Roland rep is a guitar player and as far as I know, there has not been an Roland arranger clinic at my local store in years...lots of other types...synths, amps, effects, guitar synths...but no arrangers.

Ah well, they don't seem to listen to their customers any more than Yamaha, which isn't a lot.

Issues with the G70, such as the accompaniment shutting off when you change fingering might still be present in the new G series...

Too bad you can't get an E-60 Cassp...it must be frustrating, to say the least.

Ian








[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-16-2008).]

Mmmmm...??

hey Cass here's an idea.....just trade Fran the Psr3k & Hammond straight up for the E60....now that's a good deal......and besides think of all the enjoyment & money your gonna make with the great sound of the E60 without breaking your back carrying it!!

Think about it

Oh yes the "Jazz Scat" says it all...

Donny, that Hammond's not going anywhere! That's my keeper, for sure. But maybe the 3K and $$ would work. Anyway, I don't think Fran has quit playing with the E-60 long enough to think about giving it up yet. But he will The question is, what's left for him to try?

Yes Kalimero, velocity will effect the tone , both velocity switched tones and also control of filters..

Fran,

You forgot to answer about the sound of electric guitar in Guitar mode. Is there sound of the distorted electric guitar (with fuzzy effect I suppose) suitable for soloing guitar parts of Pink Floyd (Time) od Santana (Samba Pa ti) music?

I read somewhere that E-60 doesn't have insert effect same es G-70 or E-80, is it limiting the guitar sound?

Thank You very much for Your replies.

BTW I do know people get affected by the sound of certain manufacturers, but it just the way it works.

[This message has been edited by kalimero (edited 01-16-2008).]

Yes the E-60 has the electric guitar in guitar mode..and yes you can assign any insert effect to the guitar..The only effects that are missing from the G70/E-80..are mostly effects used with the audio inputs..that the E-60 does not have..so no need for these..The fuzzy guitar effects are covered..

Fran, Thank You very much for your answers.

Firstly, Ian... My only reference to Yamaha's arrogance (as you well know!) is their refusal to produce a 76 on anything other than the REAL 'Home' lines. Despite what we all read here.

Now I'm not saying that they don't do market research (but so do all the others that DO make a 76), but you have to question it's accuracy when, here at SZ, the clamor for one is quite constant (and not just from me!). This is a 'general' arranger forum, and there doesn't seem to be any filtering of posters (except for those that get fed up at the constant sniping between some members!), so I am led to believe that this is a representative (albeit small) cross section of arranger players.

How come Yamaha's data is SO different to what we see here, and what we see from other manufacturers? My usage of the word 'arrogance' just reflects this, and also the usual lack of any significant OS updates (want a better Yamaha? Buy a new one, you won't get an update, that's for sure!), despite most other manufacturers' practice of doing this. But maybe 'arrogance' isn't the right word for this. Maybe it's 'laziness' or 'cheapskate'

But there is NO word bad enough for the morons at Roland..! How they managed to destroy their market leader position, despite making some of the best arrangers around borders on the criminal (to their stockholders), or criminally insane! Pile it on, Ian! I agree with every defamatory word...

Thanks Diki, but there's no need to say more...I made my point.

Ian

And secondly... While the guitar voices in the Roland's ARE quite good, if these are the most important sounds to you (especially for use in styles, rather than playing live), I think you need to look at the Yamaha's.

Those Mega voices, in style mode, provide a degree of realism that Roland can't quite match. Roland's drums (IMO) are better, but Y's guitars rock!

It's a shame ONE manufacturer can't get it all right!

Uh, Abacus, Liontracs; that was your cue. What're you guys, asleep?

chas

Fran,

One more thing.

Would it be too much from me if I ask You to record some nice electric guitar solo in mp3 and e-mail me so I can hear it for myself.

P.S. Don't worry if You don't consider yourself a good guitar player, I can guarantee You I'll be impressed anyway.

I am only chipping in so that there is a little more balance in the virtues of the E60 compared to the PA800.

The E60 has very limited onboard sound editing capabilities unlike the PA800 which has the abilily to edit just about every parameter of the sound.

The E60 has no sampling capability not just in terms of recording and manipulating a sound but it cannot accept external manufacturers sounds so you are stuck with whatever Roland has provided you with and no expansion capabilities either.If you get tired of the roland sounds you are dead in the water! The Pa800 can accept a wide range of commerciallly available sounds giving the user far greater choice than the sounds it comes shipped with including tye ability to edit both the internal and sampled sounds.

Lastly the guitar mode on the roland is limited in that it can only be used in live play from what i have understood from the manual (plaese correct me if i am wrong fran).

Whereas the PA800 can use Guitar mode within the user create styles and sequencer and live

This makes the PA800 in my view hands down a far more versatile instrument than the E60.

Just my contribution to the discussion.

And from a financial standpoint they never will want to do that.....don't you see how the overall big game is played boyz?

Just to keep everyone on track - the E-60 is a

76 note keyboard version

of the E-50. The buzz is about the 76 notes. I don't think Fran ever meant to say the E-60 was fair competition for the PA800. Donny hasn't said anything about his 800 vs the 60, but i bet he would say the 800 has more features.

Remember kids - 76 notes.

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 01-16-2008).]

The points I made about the E-60 and PA800 comparison..was in response to a question ..presented by Ian...

I mentioned they were completely different instruments and focused on common things..

It was not a put down of the PA800..

If I was going to suggest a more realistic comparison ..it would have been the E-80 verses the PA-800..

I do not know how well the guitar mode works[if it does work] in the styles..I have heard others say yes and some say no..

Personally I don't find anything wrong with Roland's choices of guitars written in there styles..They are among the best...

Maybe I am not a great guitar fan, but the SA tones [Yamaha] don't do it for me..

With in a style..I think the difference is mostly hype..

Like I said in previous posts ....all this back & forth mumbo jumbo mine is better then yours, sounds styles dont mean squat.....if you ain't a player......when does this infantile mentality stop?
Just ask yourself this........if there was the perfect keyboard made tomorrow & it was free for you to have .....would you sound better as a "player" or not!

I think not UNLESS you ARE A GOOD PLAYER all else is secondary.....or a faker.

I rest my case...........

Kalimero..where is your email address? Email me and I will send demo

Naaah...it ain't hype Fran...I reckon my cat could tell the difference.

Mega voices make the guitar parts in a style come alive...SA voices do the same for the melody.

Imagine how cool the "Guitar Mode" on the Korg or Roland would sound with mega or SA guitars.

The real kicker would be Yamaha making a "guitar mode" of their own in the Tyros3.

Ian


[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-16-2008).]

Ian, I haven't heard anyone that could play the "special" voices in real time..and for a guitar mode..you would have to play according to the mode's techniques..

Maybe that is why Yamaha has stayed away from the Guitar mode..

Fran ....excelllent LIVE sound well played


Thanx for sharing!

Fran,

You have e-mail (and it's revealed in my profile now)

spalding,

As I understood, Korg PA-800 guitar mode is for style-playing only (and sequencer I guess), there is no mention of solo playing in the manual.

Roland guitar mode should be recordable in sequencer, but cannot be used in styles.

Dnj,

If someone is good keyboard player, he will sound good no matter what keyboard he plays.

The point is that this very same player will sound to himself much better when playing on better keyboard.

Anyway, as I understood nobody here started "this back & forth mumbo jumbo mine is better then yours" it's just comparison of two arrangers from same manufacturer, with no offense to any other keyboard.

Not really Fran...SA voices include guitars and are meant to be played in real time...the Mega voices are for styles.

The reason Yamaha Mega Voices are so good is because they are Midi loops that have been recorded using a Midi controller suitable for the instrument, (Guitar Mega voice = Guitar controller) with additional effects controllable by velocity and out of range notes.
This is also why style conversion software cannot make a good conversion with a Mega voice style to any other keyboard.
The only way to get a Mega voice style to sound even better is to play it on a Wersi with the OAA (Open Art Arranger) software, which allows the sounds to come alive without the compression effects of the Yamaha sound system.

Bill

An extraordinary post from the guy that has gone through more different arrangers in the last two years that anyone else...

Of course that mumbo jumbo 'mine is better than yours' infantile mentality only applies when it is someone OTHER than you spouting it?

BTW, Fran, that IS the Roland factory demo sequence being played there, isn't it? I would hate to think anyone would take credit for something they did not do themselves, wink, wink!

Also, that particular sequence (from the G70 launch, over three years ago, probably re-voiced a bit for the E60) predates the Guitar Mode introduction.

Kalimero is right, also... Guitar Mode on the Roland's is either for live playing (and it only supports chording, not playing of solo lines like SA voices) or recording into a sequencer. You can then use it to make styles, but you lose the lookup tables that are optimized for guitar (which is what Guitar Mode is essentially about), and they revert to the standard tables, essentially ruining the pattern for anything other than the basic chords Maj, Min and Dom7th. Not to mention the inversion changes as you play in different areas of the NTA section.

Roland need to finish the concept (preferably with an OS update rather than a new model!) and integrate it with the style section. None of us REALLY want to devote two hands to making an acoustic or electric guitar pattern... We want to play OVER one, especially one that plays accurate guitar voicings and strum patterns. Korg got it right, Roland need to catch up...

And sorry, Fran. As much as it pains me (not really!), I've got to agree with Ian re. the Yamaha SA and Mega guitar style patterns and sounds. It is the one area of the Yamaha's I am extremely jealous about, and would LOVE to see integrated into my G70. The rest, pretty much, they can keep, but those guitars are a HUGE step better in realism. That's not to say that the Roland's are duffers, far from it, but Yamaha has an edge, especially electric guitars.

Me, I'm ultra picky (surprise!) when it comes to guitar sounds (I play with one almost all the time)... If I didn't have a real guitarist, Yamaha would be MUCH more likely to get my arranger dollar.

Finally, does the arranger make the player, or the player make the arranger? Both... IMO.