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#223985 - 01/08/08 05:56 PM Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Hey all, listen:

I've reached the point where I should be getting a new PA setup, and I think it has to be MUCH smaller, lighter and more convenient.

I'm sick of lugging all our crap around.(anyone know the feeling??) *heh*

Long story short, I've read almost every thread about the Bose PAS (most of 'em seem to stop around 2005/6) so PLEASE don't tell me to go and read all the threads re this system.

Here are my 3 questions regarding the system.

1. Has the phase cancellation problem been solved (Mono/Stereo) either with clever setup techniques, or the fact that there is a "model 2" system out now.

2. Does the system have the guts to compete with conventional setups (say if I buy ONE system with two Subs) in most rooms large or small, and does it Compress/Limit the sound to the point where the whole sound loses dynamics and "excitement".

3. This is IMPORTANT - we've recently turned down overall as our hearing is starting to suffer. Hopefully we're a long way from deafness yet, but nobody seems to have discussed this issue, and that is:

If the speakers are placed BEHIND you and the audience hears what YOU hear, won't that sound be too much?

I mean, in a convential PA we share one monitor on stage. I can turn it down or up so we're not blown away, and the Front speakers can be as loud as you like and we don't get blasted (mind you, in reverb laden rooms filled with glass and stone, the sound waves crash back and send us deaf anyway - I understand the Bose is mean to help in this situation????????)

Can anyone help with any UPDATED impressions of the new PAS systems (hell even the old ones).

FWIW we're a Duo playing ALL genres (very old to very new) and play primarily to dancers (both "party people" & "real" dancers).
I use a Korg PA1x Pro Elite and my wife plays Electric Guitar with a Roland Cube 30 Amp.
Dual vocals (both lead and harmony) & we use SMF's (occasionally MP3s) as backings for 95% of what we do.

N.B. - Yes I will audition these speakers for myself soon and use them live if I have to, but I value the opinion of the Synthzone members here - I usually find this forum a wealth of info and more importantly first hand impressions - help a fellow member out here guys - do I buy this system?

P.S. I love my stereo, and all files/sounds are panned and tweaked for a Stereo field, but as someone in the forum said, Stereo Effect is like flash photography - the flash only goes so far....

I'm willing to embrace a new concept!
_________________________
God I hate signatures.

BUT...

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#223986 - 01/08/08 11:30 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Seems the only people who think there is a "phase cancellation" problem are people who do not own a Bose system. I have had mine for three years and used it with several different arrangers and no such problem exists.
I have also tried the new model 2 system extensively. It disperses the sound even better, if possible, and is a little lighter.
It comes with an optional mixer, but it isn't really optional, you will have to have it.
It is quite good (the mixer) but is an extra $500. I use an external mixer, usually Behringer, with my Model 1, when I need it, and I very happy with it. I cannot see the new system being worth $1000 to upgrade, but if I didn't have the Model 1, I would certainly get the Model 2.
Two years ago, when we had the arranger jam in Shreveport, there were multiple keyboards and mics, all being fed to the L1 through a 12-channel mixer. The Bose handled it all without a hiccup.
Quite a few SZ members were there, and can attest to it.
There was a PSR2000, a Ketron SD1, a Korg, a Midjay, an accoustic guitar, a fiddle and a harmonic going through it. No cancellation.
On two occasions, I set up the Bose system side by side with two powered Barbetta speakers. Both HankB and Bill (semilive music) heard the test. We all agree that the Bose blew the stereo system away. There is no hint of losing anything sound wise, in fact the opposite was true: the Bose reproduced the sounds clearer and more distinctly, the Tyros 2 piano included.
I have played jobs from 5 people to 500 people using the Bose system and it handles all of them equally well.
Just tonight I played a Roland E50 through it and it even made that piece of junk sound good. (I'm JOKING, it's actually a heck of good keyboard.)
If you are an EXTREMELY loud situation, you won't want to get directly in front of the tower, but you can sit in front and slightly to the side.
The sound falls off just a little in the first few feet, but not much. Then it seems to carry over vast distances without losing volume. As a rule, if it's too loud for you, then it's probably too loud for the room.
I can speak in a normal voice and be heard distinctly by everyone in the room (and sometimes in other rooms!), yet it isn't too loud for the table five feet in front of me.
It's truly amazing.
You don't have to take my word or anyone else's; Bose will let you try one with a 45-day return option, no questions asked.
My livelihood depends on my sound, and I know in my mind that the Bose has allowed me to stay ahead of most everyone else in this area in that regard. It has paid for itself many times over. As a matter of fact, I was able to pay for it easily with equipment that I no longer needed after I bought it.
Because I play in a high-visibility venue, several other pros have purchased the Bose system after hearing it there. A lot of others want one but think it's too much money. But then again, I'm working and they are not. Cause or effect?
DonM

P.S. You can see lots of comments, good and bad, by current users here: http://bose.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/frm/f/778102955

[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 01-08-2008).]
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#223987 - 01/09/08 12:35 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Don, re the 'phasing issue'... Do you have one or two towers? I think most of the comments came from people trying to use them in stereo.

The rest might come from users used to working in stereo (either from their PA or just listening to the built-in speakers) and were unused to exactly what their wonderful stereo sampled pianos actually sound like when collapsed down to mono (on one PAS). Most of them sound quite different in mono...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#223988 - 01/09/08 01:32 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6482
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Any phase cancellation isn't the fault of the PA system at all ... it is the fault of the stereo input be it an electronic keyboard or whatever and will happen the same through any monophonic system.

It's really your choice of whether you want to pay out for a stereo PA vs a monophonic one. It really isn't even a Bose PAS issue but more how well your keyboard handles being summed to mono.

I guess if your keyboard has that problem you have to decide to either always use a stereo PA or buy a keyboard that doesn't suffer from phase cancellation. You got to decide. Be aware though that using a stereo PA still really doesn't solve the problem but just hides it. Anyone standing dead center in front of the speakers in what should be the sweet spot will still experience the same phase cancellation. But as most people aren't in that listening position the problem just isn't so obvious.


Anyway my band decided to get 2 Bose PAS towers and they really are way beyond a conventional PA system. We will never go back.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 01-09-2008).]

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#223989 - 01/09/08 03:07 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
Bernie9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5507
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
Hellboy
Just to paraphrase Don's answer to one of your important questions regarding volume. As Don mentioned, the rate of fall off after the first few feet in minimal. The practical effect of this is that new owners tend to set their PAS volumes too high in anticipation of a steeper decline, like conventional pa systems.

You no longer have to endure loud volumes on stage to reach the far reaches of your venue. This is accomplished with great clarity, I might add.

Bernie
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pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact

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#223990 - 01/09/08 03:19 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703

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#223991 - 01/09/08 04:22 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
mikeathome1 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1208
Loc: Syracuse NY
Go for the trial, give it a workout, I was amazed the first time I set it up and three years later it still continues to amaze me.
One sub has always been enough, sometimes almost too much,it's that good. You can always add a second if you think you need too.
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#223992 - 01/09/08 04:45 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Try before you buy...it is a big investment...trust your own ears.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#223993 - 01/09/08 05:37 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
Stephenm52 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 5126
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by DonM:

.
Two years ago, when we had the arranger jam in Shreveport, there were multiple keyboards and mics, all being fed to the L1 through a 12-channel mixer. The Bose handled it all without a hiccup.
Quite a few SZ members were there, and can attest to it.
speakers. Both HankB and Bill (semilive music) heard the test. We all agree that the Bose blew the stereo system away. There is no hint of losing anything sound wise, in fact the opposite was true: the Bose reproduced the sounds clearer and more distinctly, the Tyros 2 piano included.
I have played jobs from 5 people to 500 people using the Bose system and it handles all of them equally well.


It's truly amazing.
You don't have to take my word or anyone else's; Bose will let you try one with a 45-day return option, no questions asked.
My livelihood depends on my sound, and I know in my mind that the Bose has allowed me to stay ahead of most everyone else in this area in that regard. It has paid for itself many times over. As a matter of fact, I was able to pay for it easily with equipment that I no longer needed after I bought it.
Because I play in a high-visibility venue, several other pros have purchased the Bose system after hearing it there. A lot of others want one but think it's too much money. But then again, I'm working and they are not. Cause or effect?
DonM


[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 01-08-2008).]


Don great sales job you sold me on the Bose. Maybe they should hire you,( probably Gary Diamond too After reading your review my blood pressure shot up and I thought the Bose has got to go on my wish list. ( well it has been ). You are very convincing and one of these days.......... the 45 day trial is a win win situation. Thanks for your comments



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 01-09-2008).]

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#223994 - 01/09/08 07:10 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
I can only echo what DonM and the others have posted. I've never had a problem with phase cancellation, the sound quality is light years ahead of conventional sound systems, and after three years of use the system has never once failed to wow audiences. Everyone raves about the clarity, and no one sitting close to the stage has ever complained that the music was too loud. It's truely an amazing system.

Take the 45-day trial period offer, try it out, then if you, and your audiences, don't like what they hear, send it back for a full refund. Can't beat that kind of deal.

Oh, the one thing I forgot to mention, Bose has outstanding customer support. I only know of one instance where they system failed, and that person's system was replaced the following day via overnight shipping paid by Bose. No other manufacturer I know of provides this kind of customer service other than Logitech.

Good Luck on your decission,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#223995 - 01/09/08 08:15 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
I use one tower and one sub. I borrowed a second sub from HankB and I could tell no difference in sound at the level I was playing. I'm certain that at really high levels the second sub would make a difference.
I plugged and unplugged it during the evening and no one could tell any difference in the sound, including me.
As for service, I did have a problem about 13 months after I purchased the Bose. It started making a loud crackling noise. I was able to reboot it and make it stop.
I phoned Bose the next morning, a Wednesday. They had me do a test or two, then overnighted a new L1 unit to me. I had it Thursday morning. I then returned the old unit to them. That was it. Great service. I've had no other problems at all.
DonM
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#223996 - 01/09/08 08:26 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Try before you buy...it is a big investment...trust your own ears.

Ian


I fell for the Hype...I tried ....
I sold..... I moved on......I'm Happy.

But it could turn out something that you will enjoy for your needs. The sound is very adequate & crisp, coverage is excellent....in certain rooms I found it to be a bit thin for my liking but that could of been due to the acoustics inside or maybe adding a second sub would of helped. .....outside it was excellent & can cover a large area no problem....low stage ceilings was a problem with the height of the tower & I had to keep the unit on the floor next to the stage so that it wouldn't hit the top....the newer design covers a bit better with the alternatively angled tower speakers. Putting all the pieces into the covers was a chore at first but they start to stretch after a while....I would keep the base unit in the cover and just roll back the top after unzipping it for less hassle. You also have to really find what EQ setting you enjoy there are so many different ones.....A PA is a personal choice, when you hear it at full volume on stage only YOU will know if its for you or not.

Good Luck.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-09-2008).]

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#223997 - 01/09/08 08:29 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Don, re the 'phasing issue'... Do you have one or two towers? I think most of the comments came from people trying to use them in stereo.

The rest might come from users used to working in stereo (either from their PA or just listening to the built-in speakers) and were unused to exactly what their wonderful stereo sampled pianos actually sound like when collapsed down to mono (on one PAS). Most of them sound quite different in mono...



Diki .....have you performed thru the Bose PAS system yet....? Could be a great system with your duo act.


btw where did you play for NYE this year?

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#223998 - 01/09/08 09:21 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Donny, I thank you. It was your unbridled enthusiasm for the Bose system when you had it that made me decide to try it!
DonM
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DonM

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#223999 - 01/09/08 09:43 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
J. Larry Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/99
Posts: 521
Loc: University, MS 38677 USA
But what does an electric guitar with backing tracks sound like through the Bose? Most of you are using keyboards---not in my case. Anyone playing guitar with vocals through the Bose?

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#224000 - 01/09/08 09:54 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Originally posted by DonM:
Donny, I thank you. It was your unbridled enthusiasm for the Bose system when you had it that made me decide to try it!
DonM


Don, yes I remember it well.....it was more of a portability/setup issue with me versus the sound....Dave showed me his NEW Bose with the angles speaker on the tower & the kool mixer....nice design. I'm glad your enjoying the Bose system for YOUR needs.
I'll talk to ya soon!~

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#224001 - 01/09/08 11:54 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
J.Larry,

There is one guy in our area that is using a 12-string guitar, a drum machine and doing vocals. He's booked solid for every weekend during the entire year performing mainly in bars and VFWs. I haven't heard him, but the folks I know that have said he sounds teriffic.

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#224002 - 01/09/08 01:50 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
frankieve Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/24/99
Posts: 1675
Loc: Milford, CT, USA
I own 4 of the PAS L1 systems and I will not go back.

Actually I have been in contact with Bose and I guess all you guys are to thank but they have heard very good things about me and my ability to offer customers some knowledge and actual real life use and situations.

So long story short I soon may be a Bose PAS dealer.

If your interested I have the L1 systems for sale used

Frank

------------------
www.Audioworksct.com
(888)
374-6076
Korg, Ketron, RCF, Samson, Mackie, Freehand MPP, DB Technologies, Behringer, Audio-Technica
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Frank@AudioProCT.com

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#224003 - 01/09/08 01:52 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
frankieve Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/24/99
Posts: 1675
Loc: Milford, CT, USA
Also if you like Hellboy, just fly up to my shop, I have a area of about 2500 square feet, I could set-up 1 to 4 of the L1s and you can play to see how the sound travels

The invite is there for anyone

Frank

------------------
www.Audioworksct.com
(888)
374-6076
Korg, Ketron, RCF, Samson, Mackie, Freehand MPP, DB Technologies, Behringer, Audio-Technica
_________________________
www.AudioProCT.com
Frank@AudioProCT.com

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#224004 - 01/09/08 02:23 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Frank,
AFAIK Hellboy lives in Oz..

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#224005 - 01/09/08 06:16 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:

Diki .....have you performed thru the Bose PAS system yet....? Could be a great system with your duo act.


btw where did you play for NYE this year?



I haven't used one personally, but I had a friend who had one (a great keyboard player - no arranger, just solo piano) and just wasn't impressed. They ARE very clear, with what I would call a typical Bose 'sculpted' sound, just a bit lacking in 'presence' and mid-range, but very accurate highs.

I think the problem with them is that the sub carries just a bit too much of the load, and of course it is on the floor, rather than up high, where it can project better. For many, this is exactly what they need, and I can understand many liking them, but in fairness, I am not a big fan of ANY of Bose's stuff... The old Bose 702 series (I think that was them, similar to 802) were incredibly inefficient (you needed a BIG power amp and the processor for a good sound), and most of their home audio is very lacking in mids, IMO.

For reference, I use Mackie HR824 reference monitors at home, B&W monitors at the studio, and JBL SRX series speakers at gigs. I just find that, compared to these standard reference monitors, the Bose's ALL have little mid-range presence, exactly where you need warmth and accuracy for vocals, sax sounds, etc.. But this is just my personal taste. For that 'background', don't interfere with dining conversation sound, the Bose's may be just right. I rarely play that type of gig, though.

My preference is to be right 'in your face' at the dance floor, and I LIKE to drop off quickly, not throw to the back of the room at little change in listening level. People go to the back of the room for a reason... They want to talk to the girl or guy the just picked up on the dance-floor. If the level is the same at the back to what they danced to, they can't talk! (Assuming you are kicking ass on the dance-floor!)

Restaurant, low volume gigs I can see the Bose being perfect. But for more high energy, or 'featured' music, I just don't see them working for me (got to add that!)...

BTW, I played a four-piece gig for NYE, great players (drummer won a Grammy, guitar player is one of the best in the area). My regular guitarist goes to Oregon for the winter (Nov-Feb), so this time of year I get my ya-ya's off with a bunch of different outfits... Mostly live playing (but still all on my G70 - everybody loves the sound of it, especially the piano and B3 sim!). I just feel that playing with others is necessary to keep a reality check on arranger use... It's all too easy to forget what things are SUPPOSED to sound like, rather than what your arranger MAKES you sound like! Still no substitute for the real thing, IMO
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#224006 - 01/09/08 06:38 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Diki.....thanx for the great reply and opinion on the Bose, I agree with many things you voiced....there are so many different views.....but like I always have said use YOUR ears for YOUR needs for sure...

Sounds like you had a great NYE gig also mixing it up with some kool players....must have been a blast for sure!!

l8tr

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#224007 - 01/09/08 06:43 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I

...most of their home audio is very lacking in mids, IMO.

For reference, I use Mackie HR824 reference monitors at home, B&W monitors at the studio, and JBL SRX series speakers at gigs. I just find that, compared to these standard reference monitors, the Bose's ALL have little mid-range presence, exactly where you need warmth and accuracy for vocals, sax sounds, etc..

My preference is to be right 'in your face' at the dance floor, and I LIKE to drop off quickly, not throw to the back of the room at little change in listening level. People go to the back of the room for a reason... They want to talk to the girl or guy the just picked up on the dance-floor. If the level is the same at the back to what they danced to, they can't talk! (Assuming you are kicking ass on the dance-floor!)

Restaurant, low volume gigs I can see the Bose being perfect. But for more high energy, or 'featured' music, I just don't see them working for me (got to add that!)...



A good evaluation of the Bose characteristic sound, Diki...mids are weak.

I have tried the Bose L1 several times, just to be certain that it wasn't for me.

Besides the phase cancellation on my 3k and now my S900, the lack of mids was quite apparent and not the sound I want.

I use B&W monitors for studio work as well...I've got an old pair of DM110 that I've had for ages...nice tight transparent sound.

I also agree on needing the sound to drop off, although, in my case, it IS a restaurant gig...and you're right...some people want to be able to sit away from the sound for various reasons and the Bose fills up the room so much...it's not going to happen.

Certainly it is well made gear and a good choice for some...just not for me.

I'll stick with my Yamaha MS-60S powered monitors...they're the bee's knees for me.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#224008 - 01/09/08 08:01 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
btweengigs Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 2204
Loc: Florida, USA
No argument here. If Bose was perfect for everyone, the other manufactures would go the way of American Motors.

For me and my gigs....there has been nothing better than the Bose L1.

Just tonight I had a conversation with a very good buddy (and traditional stereo guy) and it became very obvious those of us who have tried and liked different systems become passionate about them.

I love my Bose and hope you love whatever you are using.

Eddie

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#224009 - 01/09/08 09:25 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
If you aren't hearing enough mids, it's SO easy to adjust it. Anyway, I hope nobody else gets one, at least close to me!
DonM
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DonM

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#224010 - 01/09/08 09:35 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Hmmmmmmmmmmm.............

Well that point Diki raised I didn't even think of.

Now I'm worried.

We're just the kind of "in your face" feature/dance act that Diki described.

The great Bose advantage of filling the room also may be a great DISADVANTAGE.

In some venues we start off "Dinner volume", but ALWAYS by the end of the night we have to kick it pretty hard.

People could move to the back of the room to "escape" us, but the Bose doesn't give you that option......

As for the lacking mids comment, I'm convinced that the model 2 system (latest Bose PAS) is a different beast to the 1st one, and the different EQ settings for different rooms would have to be used as well.

I'll audition soon.

Anyone else agree with Diki - this system is strictly for "laid back" venues/gigs???/

(Thanks for all the feedback so far...love you guys!)
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BUT...

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#224011 - 01/10/08 02:06 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6482
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by hellboy44:
Anyone else agree with Diki - this system is strictly for "laid back" venues/gigs???/


Well not really. My band is a live classic rock band using Roland V-Drums thru the L1 as well as reinforcing the keyboards and 2 electric guitars in addition to the vocals of course. We play some AC/DC, Van Halen, Divinyls, Red Hot Chilli Peppers etc. ..... not exactly laid back. Admittedly we are not using the Bose subs but a 15" JBL sub woofer that can move some serious air, but then it does have to generate the drum sounds over 2 electric guitars and bass. That would not really be needed for arranger keyboard use where I think the Bose subs would be more than adequate.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 01-10-2008).]

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#224012 - 01/10/08 04:06 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
mikeathome1 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1208
Loc: Syracuse NY
The guys that love them love them.

whether or not you use it (or any choice of equipment) does not make you taller, or smarter, or prettier or intellectually superior. We all worked before our present setups came and and will work into the next generation of equipment.
They don't transform you into a better musician, a lame act is still the same just louder and with better coverage.
For Me:
The Bose has replaced 2 15" and horn cabinets, two poles, sub woofer (sometimes 2). Power amps, cables, equalizers, crossovers, & monitors.
For private parties, & smaller venues, sometimes space is at a premium and with the Bose I can set up in 1/3 the space without compromising on a smaller system.

I really don't understand the passion from those that don't own them and want everyone else to buy their brand.
I want all my competitors to buy 100 dollar speakers from radio shack.
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#224013 - 01/10/08 05:57 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by mikeathome1:

I really don't understand the passion from those that don't own them and want everyone else to buy their brand.


Personally, I don't care what brand a person buys, but the Bose L1, because of it's "room-filling" nature, would not be suitable in some situations and potential users/buyers should be made aware of them.

I know it wouldn't work at my restaurant gigs... there may be others who work in the same or similar situation as mine...they should know the drawbacks/disadvantages of using a system such as the Bose L1.

The only thing I'm passionate about is sounding good in the venues I play....brand doesn't matter....I use what works best for me.


Ian
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#224014 - 01/10/08 08:19 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
No one thing is perfect for all conditions, including the Bose, but it comes close for me in most instances.
It CAN be a problem if you want to restrict the sound to a smaller area. At the restaurant where I work most, there are other rooms in which you can hear my sound when I crank it up a little. There is one small area toward the left and back of the room in which I play that the sound is actually louder than it is on the dance floor directly in front of me. I finally figured out that it was because of wall surfaces, mirrors, windows, etc. Not a big problem, but occasionally a party will sit back there because traditional wisdom tells them it will be quieter. That's not the case with the Bose. So far there has been nothing that I couldn't easily deal with though.
I still have occasional guests who don't want to sit near the band stand "because it's too loud", even though they haven't been seated. Their experience with traditional bands have understandably caused this. Now, the waiters are telling them to try it and if it's too loud we'll move you. They never ask to be moved.
DonM
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#224015 - 01/10/08 08:33 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by DonM:
It CAN be a problem if you want to restrict the sound to a smaller area. DonM


Thank you Don...that is precisely my situation...the restaurant I work in is one large room with different levels.

If they had separate rooms, it wouldn't be an issue, but the Bose just covers too well.

I also prefer stereo...the Bose is mono, unless you want to spring for two of them...but that is more than a bit costly.

The Bose is a great unit, but as it has been said, not for all situations.

Ian
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#224016 - 01/10/08 08:50 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Another thing regarding the lack of mid-range......on stage it was fine for a MONO unit & with all the pieces I wasn't gonna lug around another 4 pieces & covers to get STEREO for my needs it became to Flexibility Restrictive for me.....but then if I would walk 50 feet out onto the dance floor the lack of Mid-range was the main factor in my getting rid of the Bose.......I would say all those 2" speakers on the pole just dont push enough air to generate enough MIDRANGE even with EQ it sounded TOO Thin...especially where you need it.
My ears told me to say bye bye to the PAS.


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-10-2008).]

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#224017 - 01/10/08 10:43 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
Hellboy Greg, if you are planning to use with your duo Chi-Chi I'd say you should definitely give it a try. For me the PAS has been both inspiring and unspectacular. I think the overall sound and coverageare fantastic. The only time I heard it used in a hall was with a OMB and I missed the various dynamics of up and down volume and things like that - but that could have been the musician himself; he wasn't very impressive himself.

Give it a try.
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#224018 - 01/10/08 11:53 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
J. Larry Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/99
Posts: 521
Loc: University, MS 38677 USA
Well, you guys have at least got me checking into the Bose. I want more "coverage" in different size rooms and less stuff to tote and set up. We'll see how it goes.

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#224019 - 01/10/08 01:25 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
mikeathome1 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1208
Loc: Syracuse NY
IMO you have to go for the 45 day trial. Don't just listen to somebody else's system or check it out in the store.
Take it to a bunch of different venues, and use it. Read the manual and set it up properly
Then if you don't like it send it back.

Now don't you wish the keyboard makers gave you that kind of a deal.
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#224020 - 01/10/08 01:50 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I know it would be a pain, but for those contemplating a PAS system, I would suggest that they do a gig with BOTH systems at the same time, and judge, under battlefield conditions, which one is better. Quiet store conditions rarely get you to understand firstly, how loud you actually are in a noisy club, and how much the mids are lacking in comparison.

Nigel... your post is quite telling. Firstly, the need for additional subs (add that to your cost!), secondly, the fact that you are playing with two guitarists and a bassist. Do they have their own amps? Or are you DI-ing EVERYTHING through the PAS? For an arranger user, remember, there is no bass rig (to add to the PA's sound) or two guitar amps to avoid putting in the PA! Everything has to come out of those little 2" speakers above what, 120Hz?

Secondly, how many towers do you use? Just the one? Or do you do the thing that Bose show in their promo shots, where everyone in the band has their OWN L1 system (imagine the cost of THAT!). Then, do you play mono or stereo?

BTW, the phasing problem with stereo piano samples is NOT just an L1 problem. You put any of these arrangers (although the Yamaha's, to my ears, are a little more pronounced with the problem, even the G70 and others ALL exhibit this) into a mono PA of any kind, and you ARE going to hear a difference compared to hearing it in stereo, either with a stereo PA, or just the built in speakers (which always ARE stereo, for those of you that think that stereo doesn't matter at all! Apparently, Y/K/R don't agree with you!).

It is just with the Bose, those 'phasey' frequencies are mostly in the high harmonics, which the Bose tend to emphasize, and at the same time, the mids are pushed back, which tends to mask the problem a bit on bigger speaker systems. So you can't blame the Bose for the problem, but their design DOES seem to accentuate it.

Finally, for all the PAS owners that seem to be getting a little harried at the thought of a counter opinion, actually, it is YOU that are pushing the one specific system that you use on others, not us. I have made no recommendation that everyone use MY system. Use what you want to use. Indeed, the L1's may be PERFECT for some players and situations. But it certainly isn't the bees knees, be all and end all solution that many of you L1 owners claim. It DOES have some significant differences to regular PA's, and rather than a blanket recommendation of unalloyed praise, the advice to go out and buy one, I feel, should be tempered with some caveats of it's limitations.
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#224021 - 01/10/08 03:02 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Sorry I edited this Nigel. I'm just going to say that if anyone wants my help or opinion in the future send me an email.
If I feel I can be helpful I will do it by private email.
DonM

[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 01-10-2008).]
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#224022 - 01/10/08 03:38 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
mikeathome1 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1208
Loc: Syracuse NY
Quote:
Originally posted by hellboy44:
Hey all, listen:

Long story short, I've read almost every thread about the Bose PAS (most of 'em seem to stop around 2005/6) so PLEASE don't tell me to go and read all the threads re this system.

Here are my 3 questions regarding the system.

Can anyone help with any UPDATED impressions of the new PAS systems (hell even the old ones).

I'm willing to embrace a new concept!



I think he specifically asked owners for their updated opinions and impressions.

DonM, as always, I thought you spoke eloquently before you edited.
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#224023 - 01/10/08 04:05 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
DonM, I missed the post, so can't comment, but my advice would be to stick by your words. Don't edit your post out. Unless you were verbally insulting someone (in which case not posting in the first place might have been better, but I don't believe this of you ), this is still just a discussion.

No-one's opinion (and that is all any of this is!) is any more or less important than another. Let us hear yours, we respect it even if we don't agree. Why does this have to devolve into a mess of 'attackers' and 'defenders'..? There is plenty of equipment I use that, although it works best FOR ME, at the moment, I am prepared to acknowledge shortcomings in it for others. I don't get worked up into a tizzy if someone doesn't think my G70 isn't the best arranger on the planet. For many, it is NOT!

I just think this about the L1's... for some, it is perfect, for others, it may not be. I just wish that some PAS owners would acknowledge this. Rather than the blanket 'BUY ONE" I so often hear. This isn't a $300 toy. It's a multi-thousand dollar investment (especially for multiple towers and subs). For many here, it may be the wrong thing, depending on where and how you perform (or intend to perform). For some, it may be the bees knees.

Something this expensive deserves advice that borders on the cautious, given it's niche usage (there ARE quite a few 'tried it, didn't like it', so it's superiority isn't unquestioned). For those wanting to try it, again I say 'Try it'... extensively, exhaustingly, critically, comparatively. Don't buy it until YOU have convinced yourself of it's suitability for ALL your gigs (you don't want to still have to use several different PA's at different gig types after you've spent THIS much money on a PAS system, do you?).

Just as I would advise anyone about an arranger, to be honest. Don't take my word. Don't take DonM's word. Don't take ANYBODY'S word unless they ALL say the same thing! Something this subjective can ONLY be decided by yourself.
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#224024 - 01/10/08 04:10 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
WOW!

What a storm of controversy here! (kinda)

One other thing :

Is ONE Bose system (say with 2 subs) enough for a duo?

(Here's hoping it is!)

P.S. My wife plays her Electric guitar through that wonderful Roland Cube 30 Amp - that might help in the sound department...
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BUT...

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#224025 - 01/10/08 04:23 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
mikeathome1 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1208
Loc: Syracuse NY
Quote:
Originally posted by mikeathome1:
Go for the trial, give it a workout, I was amazed the first time I set it up and three years later it still continues to amaze me.
One sub has always been enough, sometimes almost too much, it's that good. You can always add a second if you think you need to.

I think it was UD that had two subs and ended up getting rid of one because he never found a situation that needed more than one.
I don't mean to speak for anyone but I thought read that a few years ago.

But again try it out yourself.

And if stereo is important to you .....you've read the posts.
Please keep us informed about your decisions.
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#224026 - 01/10/08 04:52 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Mike,

I saw UD playing at an Italian restaurant when he first purchased the L1, and at the time he was only using a single sub--not two. It sounded great. So good, in fact, that when I left for home that night I was thorougly convinced this was the system for me.

I've played several restaurant jobs with the L1, both large and small, and never at any time had a problem with volume, or had a complaint that the music was too loud. That was one of the things that attracted me to the system when I heard UD playing in the restaurant that night. You could hear the music just fine throughout the restaurant, but you could also hold conversation with anyone at the table with you at normal tones. No one had to shout in order to be heard.

As I've often said, there is no single system, instrument or anything else in this business that fits everyone's needs. If such a system exists I will buy it--regardless of the cost. The beauty of the Bose systems is that you can field test them for 45 days, even under the worst possible venue conditions. Then, if you or your audiences don't like what is coming from the system, send it back to Bose for a full refund--no questions asked. At that point the search continues for the system YOU like. And, like Eddie and DonM, I hope no one else in my area buys Bose.

Good luck in your search, and I sincerely hope you find what you're looking for.

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy
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#224027 - 01/10/08 08:45 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
btweengigs Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 2204
Loc: Florida, USA
I really don't mind anyone buying and using a Bose L1, model 1 or 2, as long as they don't live in Florida.
Eddie

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#224028 - 01/11/08 02:52 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
mikeathome1 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1208
Loc: Syracuse NY
Gary,I could be wrong I thought I read it years ago
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#224029 - 01/11/08 03:10 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
Bernie9 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5507
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
Sorry Eddie,I have been happily using mine for some time, but I am over on the Gulf side.
Bernie
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#224030 - 01/11/08 07:13 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
btweengigs Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 2204
Loc: Florida, USA
OK Bernie..you are excused.

Fact is, since I got mine, several other players have started using them here. Its not quite the norm yet, but I am surprised at how often I am seeing the Bose on other stages.
Eddie

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#224031 - 01/11/08 06:41 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Quote:
Originally posted by mikeathome1:
And if stereo is important to you .....you've read the posts.
[/B]


Well yeah, that's probably the thing I'm most worried about:

Do I get two systems for stereo? (cost is almost prohibitive) and will that solve the problem anyway??????

The more I read about the "Mono/Stereo problem" the more confused I get - believe it or not.

It seems simple on the surface:

This is a mono system and I'll have to use my Korg and various patches/sounds/files to determine whether I can successfully sum my stereo sounds to mono.

BUT I have read (perhaps ill-informed posts on various forums) saying you can use 2 systems, or there are other ways around the problem.

One thing's for sure.

I'm NOT willing to go through EVERY single sequence and style I have panning and tweaking and adapting for mono

- that will just be too HUGE a job.
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#224032 - 01/11/08 07:11 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Don't need to do all that. You have mail.
DonM
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#224033 - 01/11/08 11:07 PM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Trust your OWN ears, Greg...take one out and try it on a few gigs...I didn't like the sound of it in mono, as did a few others, but you may like it.

We're not trying to discourage you from buying, nor are we saying the people that endorse it are wrong...maybe it will work for you...but be WISE, and TRY before you BUY...use the return policy to YOUR advantage.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#224034 - 01/12/08 12:37 AM Re: Guys, some advice re the BOSE PAS
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Good advice.
DonM
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