Most of us have made some kind of musical purchase(s) in the past several years. Some were real "keepers" while others were real duds. Tell us what you bought, whether it was a keeper or a dud, and why. Capt. Russ, don't include the stuff you haven't had time to unpack yet (sorry, Russ, I love to tease my fellow compulsive buying gear sluts). I'll start.

Zoom H2 - keeper, perfect for what it does and inexpensive as well.

Nord C1 - keeper, best bang-for-the-buck hardware clonewheel out there, bar none.

Roland PK7a (20 key pedalboard) dudeeper (new word) - well built and has great feature (pedal attack) but expensive (1300.00) and, at 34 lbs, weighs 1 lb more than the organ.

Roland SonicCell - dud. Sounds are okay but no better than (not as good as???) my Motif ES. Small LCD and hard to read in dim club (I bought this to sit atop my C1 for some extra voices - bad idea).

Roland VP550 - keeper. I love this thing. The fun factor is off the charts and it really can do some fairly creditable BGV tracks.

Behringer Eurogrand Digital Piano - dud. Bought at Costco for 500.00 to stick in the rec room (for the grandkids to bang on when they came over, but also to play at home parties, etc.). Built like a tank and looks really nice (solid wood, full back, 3 pedals) and has some really nice features, BUT, sounds like crap. I may swap out the on-board speakers for something better (it has an 80w amp which is more than ample).

PRIOR TO 2007 (but recent):

Hammond-Suziki XKB (I think) - Dud. Horrible, horrible, horrible. Worst clonewheel ever. Traded.

Roland VK7 - Dud. Better than the XKB but no top end (no "balls"). Traded.

AKAI DPS24 - Keeper. Best all-in-one DAW, period.

PA1X Pro - Keeper. I love this board (but not the OS).

TYROS 2 - Dud. I don't hate it, but wish that I'd kept my money in my pocket. Just don't like those Yammie styles (for the kind of music I play).

BEST AND WORST BLIND PURCHASES BASED ON RECOMENDATIONS AND REVIEWS BY SYNTHZONERS:

WORST - TYROS 2

BEST - not yet purchased

PLANNED PURCHASES FOR 2008:

NORD Stage (I like the red color ).


chas

It's been a busy year as far as exchanging equipment goes, so...

Roland VR760 - keeper; very good clonewheel and piano sections. heavy.

Yamaha PSR2000 - keeper; but it looks like a turtle. Gave it up for the...

Roland DC5 - keeper; a very sweet keyboard for those who work with SMF and vocals. Probably the best of the three. Sorry I sold it.

Roland E09 - dud; kept it about two weeks. Not that it was a bad keyboard, but a few steps down from what I'm used to - not acceptable for me. Good sounds, though.

I sold all of the above in favor of...

Roland G70 - 50/50 dud/keeper. This is a very nice, professional, loaded keyboard. Two things, the weight and the clonewheel section were big negatives for me. The 76-note keyboard is the best I've played and is somewhat inspiring. But in the end, it had to go in favor of...

Yamaha PSR3000 - keeper; still here after three months and will probably be here next year at this time. Good board with good sounds and features. The 61-note keyboard is its biggest drawback. Put this on the G70 keybed and it the keyboard of the year.

Hammond XK-1 - big keeper. This is my dream keyboard. It plays and sounds as good as any Hammond I've ever laid hands on. It's economical, light and just an all-around fantastic clonewheel. The Leslie sim is fantastic, as is the vibrato/chorus section; the most realistic I've ever played. This alone justifies selling the VR760 and G70.

[added]And how can I forget my CM-30's. They were a chance buy at the local GC, basically 2-4-1. Couldn't pass up the price and definitely discovered an excellent pair of personal monitors and mini PA system.

That's all for this year, but I'm always looking.


[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 12-20-2007).]

There were many more, but these are models that I used [and can recall}..
Not in any particular order..


Roland G1000..are you kidding..of course it was a keeper..for many reasons.

Ketron X1,,keeper/dud..Great styles and sounds..poor navigation..

Farfisa G7..keeper..great all around feature laden board..

Roland XP80..keeper..still one of the best workstations..

Fantom x6..keeper for the most part..dud for me..they called it right "work station"..

Roland VK7..keeper..if you needed a portable organ..

Roland VR760..keeper..better than VK7..great piano /organ combo..I had an offer I couldn't refuse..

Triton Studio 76..dud..overgrown, overrated workstation..geared for dance..Had to sell it..made money on it too..

Ketron SD1..keeper/dud..same reasons as the X1..

Yamaha PSR2000..DUD..I hated it ..key feel and sounds..

Yamaha PSR2100..DUD..slightly better sounds than the PSR2000..still hated it [I had to dump two}..

Casio WK3000..keeper..piano /organ were great..Fragile case..Bye Bye..

Roland DisCover 5..Keeper..one of the best boards ever...The G70, made me sell the G1000 and DisCover5..

Roland Sonic Cell..dud..very limited for playback..great audio interface..

Roland Juno G..keeper..A great workstation for the money..

Roland E600..Keeper..for a all in one keyboard..especially at today's prices..

Roland G70..KEEPER..it made me sell my favorite boards...I haven't found anything to compete with it...

Casio WK110...Don't know ..it will be here Friday...hopefully in time for my school gig[grandson]...reason I bought it..Played one and the sax, flute sounds were amazing..It was next to a S700..and this Casio was better in many sound areas...76 box keys too..and black..

Best purchase 2007...PSR-S900...also only purchase...nothing else needed...the best bang for the buck and the most useful and versatile keyboard I've ever owned, bar none.

Previous keyboard...PSR-3000...another great instrument...still have it.

No duds.

Ian

MY 2007 Purchases
Ketron SD5....Dud...Good styles but sound too much like the past boards and no USB.

Yamaha PSR-S900...Big Keeper...I love this board.

Ketron SD2...Keeper...Great for midi files.

PLANNED PURCHASES FOR 2008:
QSC powered speakers

Been real lucky (or just VERY careful before purchase!) so far... Just keepers;

K2500S w/KDFX - A little long in the tooth now, but it still does stuff nothing else can, and as a master controller, if your twisted mind can think of ANY whacked out routing and controller assignments, it can do it.

DX7 w/Grey Matter expansion - 'nuff said!

G1000 - over eight years of trouble-free daily (and nightly!) usage. God, I miss the Chord Sequencer! (only keyboard I've let go!)

G70 - Who cares about the weight?! If you want to play the best FEELING keyboard out there, this is it. The B3 is flawed (in comparison to an XK-1), but still the best in an arranger (that's what we play, after all!), but the piano and drums have no equal. Just give me back my Chord Sequencer!

Yamaha YSL-643 Trombone - bought it in '74, played every day since... Now THAT's value for money! A 'keeper' 'til I die.
.
.
.
How many of these 'keepers' do we still have?? All but the G1000 for me (and a friend has mine as a spare, so I can always get it back if I HAVE to!)...

Most significant purchase: A Sears Silvertone acoustic guitar when I was 10 years old. $17.95. Still have it.

Best use purchase: Hammond B-3 and 147RV. Still using it after more than 30 years.

Worst Purchase: Yamaha 3000. Hated it. Gave it to my Granddaughter.

Hard to knock any of my toys (except that damn Yamaha). Makes life FUN!


Russ

(P.S. Chas I really will try to get on the G-70 more soon, although not impressed so far. Did open and am using the SH-201 and the GW-7-fun toys. Have also toyed with the Midjay a little).

R.

BTW, never bought anything 'blind' in my life. Maybe that's why all I've got is keepers...

Hmmmmm......

Good point, Diki...I have always tried out gear extensively before I buy...I also would never buy on someone's opinion.

Certainly saves a lot of grief as well as hard earned cash.

Ian

all prior sold for some reason or another
too many reasons to remember.

Currently.........
PA800 AWESOME

CM30's SUPER

Mackie SRM450's workhorse great sound

Mackie DFX6 Great Mixer w/efx



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-19-2007).]

...and prior

Russ..you have to get into the G70 to find out why it's the best....Maybe you will be impressed then..

I do not know of one person that has put any effort into understanding [spending time with the unit]..that has not come to the conclusion..it is the one to beat...

Diki, some of us like to buy, just for fun [new toys]..unfortunately..that is what some keyboards turn out to be..

Yeah, I got suckered in when the T2 first hit (with all the advanced propoganda). Besides, there was nowhere to test one in the beginning. I bought the PA1x Pro (also "blind") as an antidote to the T2. Luckily, I liked it. But from now on, I'm gonna try to follow Diki's lead, and "try before you buy". I'm still looking for that speaker that's going to make my C1 sound like it's hooked to leslie, but so far, the closest ones are really heavy (and expensive) which sort of defeats the whole idea of a "lightweight" rig. I may just abandon the whole "808S + passives" and get a MotionSound Pro145. I'm kind of waiting for my wife to want something first so I've got some chips to play .

chas

chas

Chas, give her the 808s and passive speakers for Xmas..

Then you can get the Motion Sound

Sold the KN7000—Great keyboard Not a keeper because if the aging technology.

Sold a Tyros 2 It should have been a keeper. I went to hear the man who bought the keyboard four times. He was using Mackie powered 15” speakers and the sound was fantastic. My error.

Bought S900- a keeper for now.

I sell all my old equipment in search for new, and if I’m lucky improved.

John C.

PSR S900
JBL Eon 2
Samson PA stands
EV mic

All I need and beyond..........

Totally booked for 2008!

Happy Holidays

Fran,

What about the MediaStation. That is missing from your list and I for one am interested in whether it's a keeper or not

Al

------------------
Al Giordano
http://www.arrangerworld.com


Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland SPD-S.

Since I have all the new boards in my store, there is only one keyboard I bought this year that I returned within 24 hours of opening it up and trying it out.......that Behringer Digital Piano which now it seems only Costco sells.......And the reason..........the worst sounding piano I've heard in anything on the market...........It reminds me of the first Ensoniq mirage 8 bit sample sounds.
My favorite products of 2007 to play with at my store.......the Korg PA800 and the Yamaha PSR-S900. Best sellers for 2007...........PA800, PSRS900 and PSRS700oriental, Casio Privia.....the whole line (PX110, PX200, PX800). The worst selling keyboards.........everything that is not an arranger style or 88 key piano style keyboards. The Motif's, fantoms, tritons have really slowed down in sales this past year. ARRANGERS RULE in Reseda, California...

------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

Zoom H4 a keeper, only wish the H2 was available when I purchased the 4. H4 has more than I need, but not a dud by any means.

The following were all keepers, but I just don't want keep this kind of inventory for someone who is a weekend warrior type musician.

PSR3000
Tyros2
G70

PA800 my current board and happy with it.

All keepers:
Logitech z5500
Barbetta 31c
and the most recent addition 2 Roland CM30 cube monitors. Used them in stereo the first time last night at a country club. Can't believe what comes out of them for their size.



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 12-21-2007).]

Steve glad to hear your enjoying the Roland CM30's....definitly Best bang & sound for the buck in a small system....

good luck!

I'm sorry, maybe I'm getting a little confused here, but from the lists of barely two or three year old so called 'keepers' that many of you no longer have, perhaps my definition of a 'keeper' differs from many of you!

If you can't get five or more years out of a TOTL arranger (or more than one product cycle), you aren't 'keeping' it at all... You are simply trading as soon as something else comes out (or close to it). The idea that something is a 'keeper' if you don't immediately return it or sell it within a few months is absurd! If you haven't completely exhausted all the potential in a keyboard before you sell it (and I see very few here that claim THAT no matter HOW long they have an arranger for), it never was a 'keeper', IMO.

We have another thread going here about how familiar we get with our gear. How many of us have let things go LONG before we've even scratched the surface of what is under the hood? Given how incremental feature additions and sound improvement is at each roughly 3 year rollout of a new arranger model, for me, it makes no sense whatsoever, especially when you factor in the time it takes to learn a new OS, or reprogram all your registrations and songbooks, to buy a new arranger each year or so (or less, from many of our members!).

As many point out, all that time spent on practicing, playing and learning new tunes instead makes us FAR better musicians than any new piece of kit. Familiarity, and comfort with a well worn in keyboard makes for a far better environment to concentrate on just the MUSIC...

You know, like REAL musicians do... The more you learn how to play, the less you have to rely on your arranger to provide you with the excitement that playing live should be, and hence, the less important it is to alleviate your boredom by seeking out new arrangers (long before your current one ceases to impress your audience!).

Maybe this thread should ask.... Just how long have any of you kept these so-called 'keepers'??

Good Post, Diki !
Every board I ever bought I was still finding out more about the day I swapped it...after at least 4 years...
Same applies to other electronic devices..DVD Player/recorders,TV's,Digital Cameras....maybe I'm just slooooow.
cheers http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/016674.html ....just read this thread!

------------------
Eddie from Rotherham
Skype:eddiefromrotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info



[This message has been edited by eddiefromrotherham (edited 12-22-2007).]

Hi Diki and all
Another plus point of NOT needing to change your board to get the latest sounds and technology.
The Abacus is most definitely a Keeper.
Isn’t life wonderful?

Bill

Hey Diki, good points but it leaves out the human element....especially male humans. How come so many men cheat even though they've got a perfectly 'servicable' wife at home; how come we trade our cars every two or three years, even though the current one not only meets all our needs, but has never even been in the shop, except for routine maintainence; how come we change presidents even though the current one is doing just fine (NOT referring to George W.); how come.........

So, although your arguments sound logical, ALL of us are not Mr. Spock. Sometimes we like to enter into the world of our wives, where logic counts for very little (especially in an argument). There are also other considerations.

Financial - consumerism WILL go up when it imposes no financial hardship. This facillitates the "I just want it 'cause I want it" syndrome. Again, logic not required, just money.

Improving skills - skill level has improved to the point of now being able to justify better equipment. This sometimes goes along with "this new 'thing' will make me sound better, which will translate into more gigs, which will thus help me recuperate my investment".

Also, as loyal Americans, we have a duty to keep the economy healthy by spending as much as possible, especially that portion of the economy represented by the Japanese Keyboard industry .

Finally, YOUR "truth" doesn't have to be MY "truth". There are no absolutes when it comes to human behavior. My own personal philosophy; "if you got it, spend it". For a lot of us, many of the things that used to compete for our discretionary dollars have fallen by the wayside (golf, tennis, boating, airplanes, exotic vacations, mistresses, hard partying, etc.) freeing up lots more money for more serious things, like.....the latest keyboard. Let's face it, you can't take it with you (unless you're a Republican).

chas

gear is like stocks for a pro......invest...keep it a while &
hopefully make your money back with interest & sell before it drops too much.

I guess playing just about EVERY night, and sometimes another time in the day, I feel like I need to change for the sake of change sometimes.
I try to buy my arranger at a great price, then sell it before I take much of a loss, if any.
Almost every change I've made has been an improvement in some way, with a couple of sidesteps along the way.
I could easily be using a PSR2000, which I DID use for several years. The public couldn't tell any difference if I did, but I could. The S900 has improved storage, improved navigation, ability to store text files, color screen, bigger screen, better speakers, better buttons, corrected vocal harmony settings, a great WAV (forget MP3s!) recorder--I could go on and on. It sounds pretty much the same as every Yamaha from the PSR8000 to now though. The S900 allows me to leave the laptop and the external recorder at home if I choose.
Another thing, I tend to be very gentle with my keyboards, but moving them as often as I do, and playing them as much as I do, they won't last forever. I want to move on BEFORE I have problems. Most of the time, around tax time, I start being able to justify another purchase, IF there's something that appeals to me.
Right now, the only thing I can think of is Ketron Audya, and that will be a while getting here. Maybe NAMM will bring some surprises--who knows.
Worst purchase? I suppose I bought the Korg PA800 too soon, before it was ready for the public, but I don't plan to revisit that because there is no place without 200 miles to see and hear a new one. I spent weeks trying to get it to sound good, but I couldn't.
Right now, the PSR S900 has more bang for the buck than anything I've seen in a long time, maybe since Technics KN2000.
A KEEPER? For sure! I could use it for years, but I'm sure I won't, because I don't choose to!
But I'm happy. For now.
If only the G70 didn't weigh so much . . .

DonM

The best musical purchase that I have ever made (and also the most expensive one) was Tyros 2. In fact, I will go as far to say that it is the best thing I have EVER bought in terms of hobby-related purchases!

If you asked my wife.... she'd agree! The reason is that T2 is the ONLY thing that is able to put to sleep our 7 month old baby. I play it every night and it works like magic! The only thing is I am not sure whether the baby falls asleep because the music is so beautiful and soothing or because I suck so badly that he'd rather fall asleep than listen to me ;-)

Funny thing is, you don't see horn players changing horns every year (at least, not the good ones!), or guitarists and bassists (once they get a TOTL one or two)... Drummers rarely ever go 'there's a new version of my kit with a couple of upgraded features, I GOT to trade up again!', and singers will use the same mike until it rusts!

Why is it that we keyboard players (especially arranger users) seem locked into this eternal incremental upgrade path? Take our respective magazines, for instance... Most guitar magazines are full of TAB transcriptions and exercises, and artist interviews. Keyboard magazines are primarily equipment and software reviews, with little (comparatively) in the way of instruction.

Perhaps we have all become just a little TOO impressed by the keyboard's abilities, and hence less concerned with our own. I think the 'Spock' references get it totally backwards. Those of us that eschew constant upgrading in favor of stability and the opportunity to concentrate on the MUSIC, not the arranger's technology, are the ones that are more 'human'...

Put a Strat and a Twin Reverb in the hands of any good guitarist, and he's probably content for decades. I don't think it's a 'guy thing'. Sorry for the hard line here, but I think it's a 'laziness thing'. Rather than work hard to improve OURSELVES, we purchase a newer, slightly better-sounding (or probably, more just a different sounding) arranger, and try to persuade ourselves that it is US who got better.

Same licks, different sound.... Not what I would call 'improvement'.

Sure, every ten years or so, technology moves along to the point where sonically and expressively (and those are the main things to be a musical instrument, not OS things, in general) keyboards are just SO better that upgrading is a good thing. But once a year... twice a year (you know who you are!), even once every couple of years (or each product cycle), and you are quite possibly using the novelty to fool yourself that it's YOU who got better.

Stay on the same arranger for eight, ten years or so, and you will KNOW it's you who improved (if it happens!).

"Computer Driven" KBs & products vs NON...= Constant change & its just in it's infancy you aint seen nothing yet.....nuff said!

My Bose L1 probably preceded 2007...can't remember. But it is, without a doubt, a KEEPER.

Another great investment was a Mueller back brace. Not only does it keep me honest when loading, unloading and carrying equipment, it can double as a cumberbun on a tux job. And, it didn't cost anywhere near as much as the Bose.


Eddie

Have you seen how many new guitars and basses and drumkits hit the market every year, Donny..? Constant change and innovation isn't exclusively a keyboard thing. But what you DO see is, once one of these 'real instrument' players get them, they tend to hang on to them longer, at least once they find something they like.

And curiously, it seems the better the guitarist or bassist, the older their instrument is. Funny how that works out...

....'Nuff said?

Diki, I think you went too far with your "it's a laziness thing" remark. Looking back on most of the equipment I've owned, I think I could happily still be playing with/on most of them today, but I have always felt the need to keep my equipment current and saleable. Admittedly, my long gone Deluxe Reverb would be worth a good chunck today, but I good chunk for it when I sold it 20 yrs. ago. Laziness in learning my trade is far from the truth. If I were the same player I was 25 years ago, I wouldn't hire me today. I am much better and more experienced as a keyboard player of all types. I understand the music better and translate it to my audiences much better. New equipment is a personal choice. I've always felt that being a keyboardist involved some sort of addiction to new technology. On the other hand, my 20 yr old Kurzweil Mark 5 sounds as good today as any piano clone I've played.

So what am I saying? I don't know, but it seemed like a good idea at the time. Any way, I was offended by your remark.

Thanks for the reality check Diki (sincerely!) It has given me pause for thought, as to the real reasons I am trying to trade-away from the SD, and in fact the original PA1x..Perhaps I should be looking to developing more as an artist rather than a song machine.

Changing equipment because I feel it is THAT process that makes me a better performer, rather than simply just being more creative and trying to hone the craft through experience and emotion and being as good as my ability allows without trying to dress it up with more bells and whistles.

"[Put a Strat and a Twin Reverb in the hands of any good guitarist, and he's probably content for decades.]" This is true of EVERY guitarist and acoustic instrument player I have met!!

Your thoughts on this thread are well noted, and appreciated.
Dennis

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually agree with Donny . I believe pianist and other strictly acoustical players, possess a totally different mindset than those who play instruments driven by technology. Even if one upgrades the quality of the acoustic (or near-acoustic) instrument, there is still no new OS to learn, navigation systems to master, MANUALS TO READ (excluding us 'Osmosis' guys). As long as technology continues to grow stronger, faster, and cheaper, major advances in synth and arranger technology will continue to produce amazing new products at ever-shortening intervals. This will continue until we produce the ultimate instrument.....the one-touch MP3 player. So keep that index finger warmed up, guys and girls, it's coming.

chas

Why do you think that Hammond and its clones have returned, it is simply because no mater how good styles become, you are still listening to somebody else interpretation, whereas with a Hammond you are the somebody.
Whether you like it or not, the most advanced arranger style will always play second fiddle to a live player.
Another point of view

Bill

Well, I'm glad I'm getting comments from BOTH sides of this discussion...

First of all, let me point out my comments were addressed at NO specific person. And I hope we all realize that they are generalizations, and OF COURSE, cassp, there are some that upgrade constantly that still work hard on their craft, just as there are some that NEVER upgrade, and STILL don't work on their craft either!

But as a generalization, I think it hits home. Sure, if you want the arranger to be an all singing, all dancing do-it-all-for-you piece of kit, staying up on the leading edge of technology will give your act an edge over others at the same skill level that don't. But if your emphasis is on PLAYING music (rather than triggering a machine that plays music), spending more of your time on playing skills, rather than poring over the latest manual seems, at least to me, to be a better use of your limited time.

And 'osmosis'.... Please!!

I never heard a more facile excuse for not cracking the manual in my life. You don't learn an arranger (or any other complex piece of kit) by 'osmosis'. You are perhaps learning to OPERATE an arranger that way (hit a button, see what it does, rinse and repeat), but you'll never learn about sound programming, style editing or creation or more complex uses of the arranger (combining SMFs with arranger play, syncing audio to arranger tracks, etc.) by osmosis.

If this is the depth of your delving into an arranger, this is probably WHY some of you need new equipment to progress. Considerable progress can be made simply by working the styles, working the sounds, utilizing the often hidden power parameters of the arranger you have. But ignore them, and you HAVE to purchase new arrangers to progress. An expensive solution to a simple problem.

Now, before anyone goes off in a huff.... ONCE AGAIN, I am talking generalities here. No-one is being singled out. But as Miden has noted, PERHAPS it is time to take a look at these attitudes, and see if maybe, just possibly, we are using constant upgrading as a replacement for constant improvement of OURSELVES, and our approach to music.

Arranger players are often solitary players, seldom making music WITH others. Often this leads to a lack of peer feedback and reinforcing, and we end up looking to the technology, which is far easier to quantify what is 'best', for signs of visible progress. 'I have the best arranger, so I must be the best arranger player'. Without regular peer review (or what I call 'jamming'! ), who else is going to tell us how well we are playing (or if they like our 'sounds')?

You will rarely ever have another player, after jamming with you, come up and say 'you need to upgrade your keyboard'! They'll talk about grooving, soloing, volume levels (11,11,11...!), comping, all that good stuff. Unless you ARE playing a twenty year old dog, they'll usually go 'great sounds!' no matter WHAT you keyboard play! AS LONG AS YOU ROCK!

But, left to ourselves and our own impressions of our gig, how do we drive ourselves on...? 'I need a new keyboard' is an itch FAR easier to scratch than 'I need to stop rushing' (if I even acknowledge I am doing that!), or 'I need to play less busy solos' or 'I need to learn some newer songs'....

I think the truth is, getting out and playing with the best musicians you can hang with will improve you FAR more than any new arranger. Just play with them ON your arranger (but use NO auto stuff!), and you will quickly find yourself learning sound editing and patch setup that works with real live playing. Then when you return to your arranger, you will have a new set of ears to compare your arranger, and it's capabilities to.

But expecting this kind of stuff to magically transfer itself by osmosis... That only works in fairy tales. The REAL magicians read the manuals....!

BTW, for those that think this last post was a bit schizophrenic (Don't spend your time reading manuals... No, spend your time reading manuals because osmosis doesn't work!), let me just say that reading the manual for ONE arranger every eight or ten years is a LOT easier than having to do it every year for a different one!

Intimate knowledge of ONE older arranger trumps a cursory knowledge of 'this year's model' any day, IMO.

To add to the point Diki made, make sure you regularly go to live concert, band performances etc, as if you compare boards your missing the point of how real does it sound, (I regularly listen to live music of all types) in truth if it sounds impressive straight off, then it has probably been overblown by the manufacture, (Engineered to impress on first hearing, so as to outdo the competition) a good demonstration of this was at the launch of the T2 at the Caister Keyboard Festival, (The first few days it was viewed by the vast majority as total crap, Even the concert performance got very little applause from the 1000 or so attendees) which had a Luke warm reception, but by the end of the week when it was played (The same Big Band Intros and Endings soon become obnoxious) rather then demonstrated, its qualities shone through (One of the advantages of a week long Festival) with the SA voices really shining. (Cant wait for the sound engineers to program the OAS 7 sound engine to do the same. (Difficult to program, but easily within the OAS 7 sound engine capabilities)
Golden Rule, Don’t compare boards, but compare the sounds to Real Instruments, and I personally find most of the Wersi sounds excellent. (Not Impressive, but Real)
Have to get some shut eye; (The Real Ales kicking in) look forward to see the rest of the posts tomorrow.
BFN

Bill

I must agree that knowing the keyboard and how to use it to its optimum is a lofty goal, but not everyone is interested in that goal. Don't put those people who want new equipment every few months into a generality bin. I found by buying the G70 that its OS is still the Roland OS of past arrangers. More features have been added and it may be easier or harder to do some things, but it is the same old Roland OS. The same goes for the Yammies. Once you've played one, playing another is a baby step in the learning curve. So, there might be something to say for upgrading within the same OS. Otherwise, practice is separate from ownership and should not be generalized as Diki has done - wqay too extreme a view for my tastes.

Ask yourself why do you upgrade from a TOTL keyboard last year to a TOTL keyboard this year ? I gaurantee it has nothing to do with the music you are making or could make or probably will ever make!

I'm not going to preach to anyone about how they spend their money. Its cool whatever you do with it. But i agree with CGiles. Its more about having excess cash than passion for music. Its just adult toys for alot of people.

Back to the original thread. I have never bought an instrument that i did not intend to keep or actual did not keep for several years. The best purchase i have made so far in anything was the PA1X which i have had for about 2.5 years.It continues to amaze me and i know i have prmised to post some stuff up in here and i will. I just want to see if the civility will hold.

Before that it was the yamaha PSR8000 which i had for about 4-5 years and now is being used to teach my nieces and nephews. That thing never let me down and still hols all the samples on it that i created nearly 8-9 years ago. I have never even changed the internal battery !

Before that it was the awesome Technics KN1000 Which is a better keyboard in terms of performance features, ease of use and adaptability today than some of its more technnologically advanced competitors. I gave it to my brother who used it to write various Gospel tracks as a profession, then passed down to my nephew who used it for 3 years before blowing the speakers !!

Thats it.

If i had the money would i have gone the gear lust route ???? Very likely !!!!

But in many ways i am glad i didnt.

Merry christmas everyone !

Well THIS thread certainly has some opinions that are veering dangerously OT.

(But what the hell - it's Christmas - and Synthzone - hee hee )

2 best things I ever bought? (both '07)

A. The Roland Cube Guitar Amp (for my Wife).

What a FANTASTIC little Guitar Amp. Digitally models all the famous Amps plus has an Acoustic Mode which makes your Electric sound almost exactly like a good Acoustic Guitar (with the Gain turned up) AND it has a plethora of FX (Phasing, Tremolo, Delay etc etc) all for $380 (Aust Dollars) - 30 watts and never had to mike it in ANY venue - big or small - we've played!!
(umm... keeper!)

B. The recently purchased PA1-X Pro Elite (got it for a stunning price brand new).

I always meant to post a mini review of this keyboard, but I've had too much fun playing it and spent too much time plumbing it's depths - DEEP depths. Possibly the most balanced arranger I've played - does Old stuff great, New Stuff great, and everything in between.

I recently went into a Major music store I rarely get to visit that has most boards.
I had a tinker with all the keybeds I could find - Yamaha's, Rolands, More Korgs, Workstations AND arrangers.
I was afraid I would like the other key actions better (as I bought the Pro "blind") and I was especially afraid to try the G-70 as I thought it would blow away the action of the Pro.

Being really truthful and honest here.

NOTHING felt as good to me as my Korg, not not even the G-70 *waits for Fran to come running to his PC with a pithy comment at the ready* which just goes to show you 2 things.
One, I was extremely lucky buying blind, and two, key feel is VERY subjective - what's tasty for one man is another man's poison.

(Keeper again).

I've actually had no real duds yet...

Diki, I've been away for several weeks and amazed to find you still throwing down the gauntlet about weight. Interesting that you don't say, "it's heavy, but i don't care" but instead you seem to be on the attack or defense against some phantoms because I don't see anyone arguing weight in this thread.

But as long as you choose to make an issue of it again, I must say it's annoying that u do. Nobody has ever taken issue with your choice of a 45-lb keyboard. those that choose NOT do go that route, like myself, have good reasons for it, and we do care about it, your "who cares"
notwithstanding.

My E60 has 76 keys same as G70 and has a great keyfeel too. Last we spoke you had not yet tried one, and perhaps
it might be pretty close to the feel of the G70? and yes, the G70 has the controller pedals and the mic input and several other features the E60 doesn't..but the E60 has loud speakers which come in handy for mobile practice and for monitors on many gigs. and it's much less than half the price and only 28 lbs and much thinner and sleeker and so much easier to tote and set up with no strain on the back or hernia areas etc. which is important to many of us, more important than the fact you think key feel should be the be-all and end-all.

Nobody begrudges you your pleasure in your G70. just don't begrudge us our reasons for NOT owning one, ok?


------------------
Miami Mo

Although I do agree with the most part You said, Diki, the above statement doesn't make a much of sense.

First of all an arranger keyboard is not an instrument, actually it's lot more than (one) instrument, whole orchestra (and even more).

The purpose of an arranger keyboard is to mimic the sound of many different instruments (and majority of them is not played by keys), and to mimic the performance of the whole band just by chords and buttons, and it's not an easy task to accomplish.

Horn player (or any other instrument player) doesn't have to improve his instrument in that way because his instrument already sound exactly as it is supposed to sound. This doesn't apply to the arranger because, for instance, sound of the guitar played on a keyboard from couple years ago, and the sound of the same instrument from todays arrangers (namely SA voices from Yamaha concerning the sound) are quite different (almost incomparable). So the quality of the sound is improving over the years, along with the controlling options for the sound not played with keys (velocity sensitive patches, guitar modes, ...)

The fact is that not even the most advanced keyboards of today don't have the most realistic sounds in all "departments", or "top of the line" styles, or any additional characteristics that would made an "ideal arranger keyboard", so You have to admit there is still lots of space (for manufacturers) to improve.

Of course, all the above said doesn't excuse anybody who don't take time to get to know his arranger keyboard deeply, and instead using all the capabilities of that arranger, buys new model to sound more convincing with less of knowledge.

The true is, good arranger player will always perform much better on an older arranger, then lousy player on the "top of the line" arranger model.

P.S. Everything written above is just my personal view of the matter discussed.

Two best musical purchases ever:
1. Selmer Mark VI Tenor Sax
2. Leslie 145 amplifier

Two worst musical purchases ever:
1. Yamaha DX-27 (It was all I could afford at the time)
2. Fender Chroma-Polaris (was constantly fixing broken keys and it weighed 40 pounds)

Notice my two favourites aren't electronic keyboards?

dan

I must say Mo made a good point about the G70's weight...several SZ members and a few of my new clients were inclined to give it up for a lighter instrument...in spite of it's keyfeel/keybed.

Q: Does that make them wrong?

A: Nope...just different priorities.

On the issue of upgrading too often...

BTW, guitarists are often worse than arranger players...MOST guitarists I know own, at the very least, two or three guitars and more than one amp...some own a lot more...and MOST of them are always looking for a way to get that elusive "sound"; i.e. different pickups, amps, speakers, strings, effects...the list goes on.

Horns and other acoustic instruments are in a completely different category than an arranger...kalimero put it very succinctly with this statement, "...instrument already sound exactly as it is supposed to sound..."

I'm pretty sure if Roland came out with a G80 (or whatever) arranger that thoroughly addressed the issues with the G70 that still haven't been fixed, there would be more than a few owners that would upgrade, even though the latter instrument is hardly that old.

Especially if it had a chord sequencer.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 12-24-2007).]

I suppose if Roland made a G70 Plus, only difference being a chord sequencer, no one would be interested.
DonM

hellboy44 said: 2 best things I ever bought? (both '07)

A. The Roland Cube Guitar Amp (for my Wife).
...more

Very interesting. I have been trying to interest my friend who owns a music shop into carrying the CM-30, but he balked because he sells so many of the Cube 30. With all the effects available on the Cube it's hard to pass up if you play guitar or use any guitar-type FX. I wonder if a CM-30 and Cube 30 duo would work? Anyone tried that yet?

As far as a best purchase EVER, for me it would have to be the Kurzweil Mark 5 Digital Ensemble sitting in the living room. It has great sounds and a fantastic keyfeel. My only regret is I didn't have the money to buy up to the Mark 10 with the arranger section.

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 12-24-2007).]

I gotta agree here, Diki...playing with others adds a lot...I often do sessions with some good buddies who play guitar, Saxophone, and keyboards...it makes a difference, to be sure. I ALWAYS learn something from these collaborations.

AND...they do as well...especially playing along with the exact timing of an arranger...and how to "play off" the style.

Still, I prefer to work alone...I guess it's a control thing(as well as a better profit margin)...but there is no doubt that having another musical POV at regular intervals is valuable.

Ian

I just bought the cube 20 best hundred bucks I've ever spent!

I have two CM-30's and both the small and larger guitar cubes (the larger one is 60w.). The smaller cube has a feature I did not like. When you line out to a PA, the internal speaker is disconnected. I had that fixed...a simple soldering job. Now, I use the unit as a monitor and the PA for volume.

Good, small, reliable line of equipment.


Russ

How'd you do that Russ?

(I'm hopeless when it comes to anything useful like that)

The only thing I'd know how to do is just hang a 58 in front of the speaker and run that channel to the P.A.

Either way.........

I'm pretty helpless in the area of repair/ alteration, too. I simply took the small guitar Roland to my repair guy, who said he simply changed the way the jack was soldered.

To be clear, I'm talking here about use of the small Roland guitar amp only. I line out of the unit into the PA and use the amplifier volume as a monitor.

Haven't tried to use the CM-30's in stereo yet. I've been using one each in two different back-to-back holiday parties.

Russ