And I've got a lot of questions!!

I tested out a number of boards yesterday:
Tyros 2, S900, S700, E-50, E-60, G-70, E-09, DGX-620 and CASIO WK3700.

I'm searching for a board to use for gigging. Ideally I would like a board, where I can play like a pianist and have the autocomp follow me. So far none, of these boards will follow my style of piano playing. The DGX, E-09, E-50, E-60 and G-70 were a joke in full keyboard mode. I tried every chord recognition mode, and it changed chords like an arabic band on acid. I was able to get the Rolands to work sort of right, but then I had to seriously alter and adapt my playing. The yammies on the other hand did a better job, but none of the boards took synchopations well. And playing a pentatonic lick on all boards while in a chord, made the yammies change from the pentatonic chords (add9, 6, 69) like crazy. Did not sound good. I woun't even comment on the WK... it was horrible to play.

So my question is for korg owners, how does full keyboard mode work there? Does it change every time you play a key? or does it wait until it gets an x number of keys?

The reason I ask is that noen of the stores I've been to have a korg on display.

Also when I hear demos online of the yammies. And when I hear the stuff some of you have posted, they sound real good. But the ones in the store sounded like crap, at least when I played them. The styles didn't sound realistic at all. They all resembled quite accuratly the sound in my DGX-305. Offcourse the megavoice keyboards had a lot of slides, guitar noises and stuff like that. But it didn't sound realistic at all, it sounded like a guitar sample and a technician put in a lot of noises in the mix. It didn't really sound like a guitar does in a real mix. So why is this? Is it me who cannot play properly? Is it the boards have been messed with being on display so the settings are all screwed up? Or is it that the demos online are so fine tuned and produced that they don't really give an accurate representation on how the board sounds?

I really couldn't tell much audible difference from the Tyros 2 and S900. At least not while playing styles.

I found the user interface on the yammies to be pretty cumbersome. The lack of a touch screen makes it a bit less userfriendly than the Rolands. And I expect the learning curve to be a bit steaper.

And what is up with those bogus Music Finder, and Music Assistant entries?

Doc-Z

Get your hands on a KORG Pa800 or the new Pa2X it might be what your looking for for your style of playing.

"
Two new recognized chords. Two additional chords can be recognized: the all-important jazz chords Flat Fifth (5b) and Diminished Seventh (dim7).
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2007/07/23/korg-pa800-update/

Excerpt from Keyboard Magazine, April 2007 issue, "Arrangers un-cheesed", by Stephen Fortner:

"The Pa800 features a new RX grand piano sound (this stands for “Real eXperience” in Korg’s marketing materials), and I hope Korg takes this as a complement: The keyboard action, which is silky smooth, has aftertouch, and seems perfectly matched to every other sound in the machine, doesn’t do this piano justice. With some practice, I got good dynamic and harmonic range from it, but played via MIDI on a weighted controller, it becomes a whole new instrument. By any hardware keyboard standards, arranger or otherwise, this is a world-class sound.

When it comes to following your chord changes in a way that makes musical sense and doesn’t come off as mechanical, all arrangers at this price and above are very good. That said, the Pa800 is my current favorite. One reason is its top-notch chord recognition. Like on all Pa models, a pair of buttons determines whether the keyboard scans the left hand, right hand, or both to tell what chords you intend, which is often a function of some less-obvious mode choice on other arrangers. In practice, the display identified just about every altered chord and extension I threw at it, including augmented, diminished, sixth with and without an added ninth, major seventh (with a major or minor third), flat and sharp ninths, suspended second and fourth, even sharp 11th. With Bass Inversion active (a button found on many arrangers, including the rest of the Pa series, the Ketron SD-5, Generalmusic Genesys Pro S, and Roland E-80), even “slash” chords such as Fmaj7/A were recognized properly. It wasn’t just lip service either: Style playback was uncannily hip to the displayed chord, and seemingly, to my intentions. Was there the occasional clam? Yes, but less frequently than with most hired guns I’ve worked with, and the Pa800 doesn’t ever raid the buffet."

link to article here

You will need to adjust your playing style for it to work on any arranger. I play full piano mode all the time. With the korg there need to be at least 3 notes in a chord for the instrument tio recognise it and it will scan the entire keyboard , not just the left hand or right hand to detect a chord. Try setting the chord recognition to 'inverse bass' . Go back to the original shop so that they can reset the instrument. In this mode the instrument recognises your lowest note on the keyboard as your root note . That way you can play pretty much any chord with all the inversions of that chord and so long as the bass note in your left hand is the root note you will get the correct chord sounds in the accompaniment that you are supposed to hear following your chosen chord. I dont know if i have explained myself clearly but post again if i havent and i will try again !

If you are anywhere near a Wersi dealer (In the USA www.wersimusic.com) have a look at the Ikarus with the OAA, (Open Art Arranger) as it should do everything you require, and you can also use VST Piano instruments. (VSTs can also be used in Styles and Sequences)
Hope this helps

Bill

I guess the most subjective part about this post is sound. Most keyboards that are on display in stores have really been messed with, mainly by kids who don't know a thing about arrangers but they sure love to push buttons.

Do a master reset or System Restoration on any keyboard you intend to test--this is important. Next, most keyboards do not sound good right out of the box. On Yamaha boards, go to the Mixing Panel and tab to the EQ page, then scroll down to User1/Edit and adjust the EQs. A good starting point for the 5-band graphic equalizer would be: 5, 4, 2, 4, 8. Then store the EQ settings in STORE1. Makes a big difference.

There are loads of options with fingering modes, including Full Keyboard, which I assume is the way you wish to go. Most manufacturers have this feature, and it usually requires at least three keys to be pressed before it will recognize the chord. Those keys can be pressed anywhere on the board. You can, however, adjust the split point to the extreme right side of the keyboard to make some very creative changes. I only know of one person that does this, and he always sounds great.

Finally, instead of listening to the keyboard through either onboard speakers or the store's ElCheapo PA system, take a good set of headphones with you and listen to the keyboard through them instead. This eliminates outside noises from kids pounding on instruments in the store and other distractions, thereby providing you with a truer picture of what the keyboard actually sounds like.

Hope this helps,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Thanks for all your input. That wersi looked good, to bad there isn't any dealers here in Norway, at least none that I've found.

Regarding full keyboard modes.

On the Roland keyboards, it seemed to change chords almost everytime I had two or more notes played at the same time. I tried both the Intelligent and Piano recognition mode, and neither worked any good when playing like a piano player. As a piano player you don't always use all the notes in every chord you play, and often you play some melodic fills, that fit the current chord. On the Rolands whenever I played a fill with a blue note, or any note that didn't fit the current chord, it changed chords. So playing a mixolydian scale lick over a G7 chord for instance, had the arranger changing chords for almost every note I played. But as long as I just kept to playing only chord notes it was fine..

The Yammies did a better job when fills are concerned. It only changed chords when you pressed three or more keys down at the same time (The Rolands seem to treat sustained notes as chord notes). And playing unchordal notes in fills went fine. But pentatonic scales messed the chords up bigtime! It changed chords everytime I played notes from the pentatonic scale.

The DGX changed chords for every note I played, I mean every note!! As did the Casio.

I used a pair of studio headphones on all keyboards, to get the right sound.

Maybe I was doing something wrong?

But I was under the impression, at least that is how they market this function, that you could play like a pianist, and have the keyboard follow you.

Maybe I need a band and not an arranger?

Doc-Z

I have to agree with you, Doc...the "piano modes" on all arrangers are very lacking if you try to play as a piano player.

Haven't tried the Korg, but my experience with Yamaha and Roland arrangers was not at all satisfactory.

The user has to adjust their technique to suit the instrument which may or may not be what they want.

Ian

Ok, good to know it's not just my playing!

It seems this feature is falsely marketed.

The adaption of playing looks like something I have to do, if I want to move into this realm of music.

The reason for this is that I'm sick of lugging all my equipment arround.

Right now I have this setup:

DGX-305
Boss DR-3 drum machine
2x Behringer B212 speakers
Phonic MAX2500 Amp
Keyboard stand
Mic stand
Yamaha MG10/02
Behringer MiniFex800 DSP
a bag of mics, calbes and power adapters.

This is 4 trips to the car when doing a gig!!!

I imagine having two powered speakers, a headset mic, and a keyboard with a mic input and all my songs organised in set list on it, would save me a couple of trips to both the car and to my naprapat... That alone is worth adapting my playing style..

Now, one question:

Accourding to the tutorial video on Korgpa.com the Pa800, Pa1x, and Pa2x can save custom songbooks. Each item can have not just style and songname, but almost every setting on the board as well. You can save tempo, muted parts, orchestration, key, etc. etc. Can the Yammies and Rolands do this as well? (Music Finder, and Music Assistant)

When I tested these features they seemed to have a huge list of bogus song names, and they set up the tempo and style. As well as OTS.

It would be great to be able to store my set lists in this. As well as creating different lists for different venues.. all jazz, rock'n'roll, drunken maniac party etc.

Doc-Z

Doc,

Yamaha's Music Finder Directory (MFD)is a great tool, but it is limited to what can be stored in each selection. The MFD is essentially a mini version of a registration. It will store the name of the song, tempo, intro and variation that you use for a specific song. The bogus titles in the onboard MFD were put there for copyright reasons, and the corrected titles are available from www.psrtutorial.com .

For saving additional information, including lyrics in .txt format, plus a host of other things, you will have to utilize the keyboard's registrations. Each registration can be named as a song title, or you can name a bank of 8 registrations as a song title, thereby giving you a nearly endless array of items that can be stored.

I don't know if they are available in Norway, but if possible you should seriously look into a Rock And Rollerk cart for loading and unloading your gear. They are very versitile, hold an enormous amount of equipment, yet the cart folks down to a compact size and very easy to transport.

Hope this helps,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Doc,
beware that the Roland G-70 uses the "Intelligent" mode as the default chord recognition mode (intelligent means that it takes just one finger to trigger a chord); so, unless you specifically switched to pianist mode, my guess is that you were playing with the intelligent mode on...

Hm.. so what you are saying is that you can store 8 registrations on the yammies?

I was hoping for a way to save something this way:

Piano Bar Venue
Set 1: 30 songs
Set 2: 30 songs
Set 3: 30 songs
Set 4: 30 songs

Or
Piano Bar Venue: 120 songs

And one for each venue:

Wedding Venue: 120 songs
Christmas Party: 120 songs

And so on....

Is this not possible?

Doc-Z

I'll check those carts out! looks interesting.

http://www.rocknrollercart.com/

I did change the recognition mode. The pianist mode didn't make a huge difference. At least not with my style of playing...

Doc-z

Doc,
you can store as many registrations as you wish, provided you have an hard-disk or a USB stick (Regs don't take up much memory).
What Gary was saying is that Yamaha subdivides the registrations themselves in banks of eight; I use this feature to group together all the registrations referring to the same song. So, for example, you can have a registration for the first part of the song, another for the chorus, a third one for the bridge, etc.
It's actually a handy feature, and when I play another keyboard I really miss it.

Äh! so you can have 8 sections in one registration?
So you can change style on the chorus or bridge, bring up another set of lyrics or change the orchestration in each of these 8 parts?

Doc-Z

1- Yes; that's another way to put it.

2- Yes and you can do much more than this, like change the volume or the effects of individual sections of a style, or even have different instruments playing the same style (for example you could have an acoustic guitar playing the guitar track in the first part of the song and an electric guitar playing the same track in the second part).

I tried this method but didn't like it at all....for some reason when changing registrations on a fly as stated its not a seamless transition & could have those split second changes...plus gets a bit confusing if you want to go back & forth or extend a song. Its just wasn't For me vs using one Reg before I sold my Yammys..

Once you get into editing registrations, and understand all the features available within registrations, they can sure make life a lot easier--especially for an OMB entertainer.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

You can also change from split KB to full keyboard mode - say for a section with piano layered with strings - & back if you wanted to via registrations.

John

so changing registrations on the fly, are not as seamless as changing from one variation to the other?

Doc-Z

The only problem changing from one registration to another with different sounds (in the left or right part of the keyboard) is that the effect processor resets to the new sounds. This has the unpleasant consequence to cut abruptly the sounds from the first registration; this annoying effect is shared also by other Yamaha keyboards (like the Motif), while Roland (G-70 and also Motif) seem to be immune.
For this reason, if a Reg. has a sound that tends to linger (like a synth pad) I try to avoid playing new notes just before switching from one Reg. to the next.

Doc...

Andrea's explanation exactly it.....
on top of those sound hiccups with all those Registration changes within just ONE Song you tend to get lost in the mix sometimes especially if your going to "Medley" a few different songs or want to extend it really limits your arrangement versus using one Reg & just feeding off that, IMHO.
What do you actually want to do ?

I was hoping for a way to save something this way:

Piano Bar Venue
Set 1: 30 songs
Set 2: 30 songs
Set 3: 30 songs
Set 4: 30 songs

Or
Piano Bar Venue: 120 songs

And one for each venue:

Wedding Venue: 120 songs
Christmas Party: 120 songs

This can be accomplished relatively easy with registrations, MFD or any combination of the two. If someone that lives in your area has a Tyros2 or PSR-S900 and good working knowledge of the operating system, they can easily walk you through the process before you decide to purchase. And, I highly recommend this, regardless of which brand or model you select.

Good Luck,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

The guys in the store don't know squat...

Is there like an online tutorial of some sort that shows this method?

Doc-z

doc....
here you can read about it in the manual....
http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/emi/english/port/psr3000_om_en1.pdf

www.psrtutorial.com makes this fairly easy.

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

That gave me a lot more information about this. Now all I'm wondering is this:

1. is it possible to have 1 registration entry trigger a fill first and then go to a certain style, or style section? Say when doing a medley for instance. And this will sound seamless?

2. does the 9000 pro also have this feature?

And regarding the 9000 pro, is there any where on the web where I can listen to it? I can get one for about $700 less than the S900 or PA1X pro. And the 76 keys look promising. But since it's old I'm a bit hesitant.

Doc-Z

doc

sounds like your on a budget....for 76 keys under a grand Id be looking for a Roland G1000... although a bit older it certainly has so many features that are so useful as an arranger/workstation, etc etc ...
http://rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?dsection=d_downloads&ObjectId=439

Here you go:
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,,CNTID%25253D2205%252526CTID%25253D205500%252526LGFL%25253DY,00.html

Click on media clips and enjoy.

Eric

dnj,

My budget is not that big of a deal, but if I can get away with less money, and still get what I need, I'm a happy camper

And my wife will be happy to....

Does the G1000 have a mic input?

doc-Z

Ok, I'm going to pass on that 9000 pro thing. It's too old, and I'm guessing you can get better sounds, a lot more styles, and almost all the same functions in the newer models.

Doc-Z

My budget is about $3500, but I need to get a board, a couple of Behringer B212A's, a Shure WH20 or similar headset mic, for that price.

Here the Tyros 2, G-70 and PA2X retails for about $4500,-

I can get a used PA1X pro, a used g-70, a used PA800 and a new S900 for $2500.

So what should I do?

Besides fly to the us and buy one of each and sell two when I get home...

Doc-Z

As always Gary you are a great help.
My board now sounds much better using you EQ suggestions.
You said to store them in Store 1.
I saved them but can't see where the keyboard has saved them.

Will the EQ'S be loaded each time I switch on the keyboard?

At present I have to reload them each time I use the PSR 3000.

Cousin ken

On the Ketron products, the PIANIST MODE (Piano mode) works similar to a real piano when you use the sustain pedal.
* When you press the sustain pedal, the current chord is LOCKED allowing you to play whatever.
* When you release the pedal, the chord being played currently is taken into account ... just as a real pianist does when playing the paino.

In this case, your piano playing style doesn't change.

AJ

AJ could I perhaps send you a midi file of me playing piano, and you could run it through a ketron product in piano mode using a autocomp? And send me back the result? I'm very interested in checking out either the SD1+, or an SD3 with a controller.

Doc-Z

Doc-Z,

I don't play many jazz chordings, but I have had a similar problem to yours, since I like to play riffs with left hand to augment the right hand parts and the accompaniment. I own and like Roland G-70.

I think the one approach you may try is to set keyboard into a split mode, and select the same tone (e.g. piano) for both upper and lower part. Also set chord recognition to Pianist. I think this may work better for you - the Pianist mode changes chords when you press 3 notes (or more) simultaneously. When it scans over the entire keyboard, it is very likely to detect 3 notes at once, and switch chord when you don't want it to. Scanning the lower part of the keyboard only, it will more likely hold the chords until you play another chord with your left hand.

I don't know that this will work for your style of playing, but it is worth a try.

Good luck,
Alex

See if Russ is selling his G70?

The Roland G1000 and most earlier Roland arrangers had a chord recognition mode that was assignable to a pedal..When depressed it recognized the chord ..when not depressed it ignored chord changes..

Similar to what AJ is referring to....

Naturally being such a great feature...Roland decided to drop it from the G70....

Ken,

Those settings are stored directly in Store1, and each time you turn the keyboard on it will bring them up automatically. The only way to change them is to go back and edit the EQs, or select one of the preselects.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Hi Doc,
don't know if it will work, but if you want to, I can try the midifile thru my keyboards.
I think the only way it might be doable is via an external sequencer midied to the keyboard.

Just loading the midifile into the keyboard itself won't trigger the auto accomp. functions. The keyboard has to be tricked into beleiving it's being played in realtime for auto accomp functions to work.

Don't know how I'd go recording it , i'm more familiar with pc sequencers than the onboard sequencers, but I should be able to tell if I'm getting a load of rubbish playing back.

I do have both the sd1+ & Korg PA800 (plus a psr1500.)

If you'd like me to give it a try, email me at
rikkisbears@hotmail.com.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by doc-z:
[B]AJ could I perhaps send you a midi file of me playing piano, and you could run it through a ketron product in piano mode using a autocomp?

Wov! That would be great thank you!

Yes you are correct about you having to midi it up from the pc sequencer, or from one keyboard to the other.

Then you kan just record the audio outputs to your pc to an mp3 file or to some other media, and mail me back. I'll get that midi file up as soon as I get home from work..

Thanks a bunch!

Doc-Z

Hi Doc,
also could you give me a rough idea of what psr style you'd normally use for the song, hopefully I may find something similar in my keyboards.

best wishes
Rikki

Ok, I've sent you two files on email. This is just me improvisng, but I would probably use an 8 beat style for the first, and a 4/4 blues style for the other.

Thanks a bunch!

Doc-Z