Hi Folks,
I have a PSr2000 and the 2100 was not a very big upgrade so I didn’t do it. However, for those of us who are budget minded. And will have to work some OT for it. Will it be worth selling my 2000 for about $600 - $700 and shelling out another $700 for this upgrade? For now, I’m fine with what I have except for some of the guitar sounds… Any opinions?
Thanks,
DJ

I think you'll find the PSR 3000 a significant upgrade from the PSR 2000 DJ. And if you can get $600-700 for the PSR 2000 your ahead of the game IMO. You'll get more Polyphony more .Wav ROM although how much more .wav rom is still speculation. You'll get the Mega voices more onboard Styles plus a significant amount more of the Sweet! Live! and Cool! voices too. Although from what I've heard (through the Grapevine) the PSR 1500/3000 will have the same mushy Key action as the PSR 2000/2100 do. My 2 cents.

Best regards,
Mike

Hello...........I've said it once, I'll say it again..............
"I like the mushy keyboard action!" You just have to learn how to get used to it.........as with any instrument.

Has there ever been a PSR series (not Tyros) that had a better action in this price range?

I can't stand the PSR key action, and I'll never adjust to it. I've played many many ep's, synths, and organs over a 35 + year span of playing, and nothing has ever felt so spongy and dead as the PSR keys. Perhaps the two octave, twelve chord Magnus chord organ that I started playing on when I was about 5 was that bad, but I can't really remember that far back.

When keys are so unresponsive that they can potentially cause me to miscue notes on very fast runs, I stay away. It's really unfortunate too because other than that, I liked so much else about the PSR2000 that I had before, so I know the 3000 would be a good fit if it has a better keypad.

AJ

There’s the difference! I finally figured out why the key feel appeals to some and others hate it. I played the piano a bit in college. They had music rooms with a piano and I’d fiddled with it a bit. I got my first Yamaha board and it was cheap and had cheesy keys. Then I got a psr5000. Had great sounds and cheesy keys. Got a psr530 it had cheesy keys. Next a 540 then a 550. All had cheesy keys. Now that I’m on the 2000. I’m use to cheesy keys and I love the cheesy keys. I’m glad that the 3000 will have cheesy keys. That'’ what I’ve grown use to thanks to Yamaha.
DJ

I play a Roland Vk7, Yamaha SY85, PCR30, and a PSR2100. All have a different action/key size I play all just as badly. I did not know there was a problem, until I read others
complaining about it. Well it still does not bother me. Build a bridge and get over it.
Smokey

I don't know how exactly to say it without coming off the wrong way, so I'm not going to worry about it, and I'm just going to say it anyway.

I play at a pretty high level on keys. It's not like I'm going to try to play Etudes, or Emerson or Wakeman style synth leads and organ, or Monty Alexander / Chick Corea jazz piano on a PSR all that often.. but on the right board I think I can play pretty close to that level, as well as playing in my own style, which incorporates different techniques I've tried to borrow from some of those players while doing my own thing.

On a PSR I just do not feel as confident playing that kind of stuff, plain and simple. Ok, granted, high level piano emulations are difficult on any non weighted key synth, particularly the 61 and even 76 key varieties, but I can do better piano and a lot better with the organs, synths, and other stuff on my PA80 or my Motif, or virtually any other synth I've ever played.

Key feel DOES matter to me, and better key feel helps make me more comfortable and better able to emulate whatever I want to be able to play in a live setting. Ok, if I'm just adding chords and playing some basic melodies and / or bass lines, or doing simple comping, then I agree, it doesn't matter so much, but occasionally I wanna break out and strut my stuff. I do a liitle in every show. I don;t overdo it, but I worked and practiced hard for a lot of years to earn the ability to do that. So I want a tool that is up to the task, and the PSR anything just ain't it.

Live is where it counts, because in the studio I have the luxury of using a different controller for that stuff and really, I don't use an arranger in the studio all that much anyway.

If the key feel is alright for you, I understand and I am truly glad for you, but please don't tell me to bulid "bridges" and "get over it". I think I know my own skills and have been doing this long enough to know what feels right to me and what doesn't. That doesn't mean it isn't right for the next player, but I'm sure I'm not the only player around who thinks this of the PSr style boards.

I'd consider the 3000 a strong candidate for me IF Yamaha would change the key feel, but it appears that they won't so I'll get off my soapbox now and move on and try to answer DJ's question at the same time.

DJ, if you are happy with the 2000 series, it may very well be worth the upgrade. I don't judge anything solely on specs, but the 3k seems to be a much bigger upgrade vs the 2000 series than the 2100 was vs the 2k. Maybe a good comparison will be, like the upgrade from the 740 to the 2000.

I was never thrilled with the 2000's guitar voices either, but I was able to create some decent patches by combining two different patches and editing some of the basic synth parameters that Yamaha gives you to work with. I actually got one electric and a couple of acoustics that I liked very much, and they reminded me of a couple of the Motif presets. Perhaps the 3000 will have improved sounds. I thought that the 2k's organs needed updating too. Overall though, it was a nice sounding board with lots of bang for the buck.

One major upgrade will be the megavoice technology. To me, the 3000 may be more like a Tyros junior with speakers, but if it has the same old PSR key feel, that kills the deal for me.

AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-20-2004).]

How verbose. I stand meekly in the shadow of such talent, both in words and music. All I said was at my level it does not bother me.
I built my bridge and got over it.
Just the way I see it, Smokey

And that's fine for you. It's apparent to me that you wanted to be sarcastic right from the start, so if it makes you happy, be my guest. It's irrelevant to me. I play pretty well, and I'm not particularly modest about it. Too bad. Talent had little to do with it. Dedication and hard work does, and I still practice often, because I still can learn so much.

What is relevant and important for me is that the folks from Yamaha who sometimes read these forums, see this, and perhaps take into consideration that there are pro's who use their arrangers and would like a sturdier build on their mid to higher end models. . BTW, I'm hardly a pro vs the other guys here who play out for a living. I would be more like the starving jazz player, who can play like heck, but doesn't work very often in the business. I am like them though in that I want the best tools I can get for those occasions when I do work. It's not just the key feel. The 2000 just felt flimsy everywhere. I broke the pitch wheel on an earlier PSR just by using it. My PA80 feels like a tank by comparison. So did my MZ2000.

Maybe the prevailing Yamaha attitude that these boards are mainly for home players will change some day, or maybe it won't, but if those who consider it an issue don't say something, then maybe they'll never know.. Maybe their right though. To me the 2000 feels like.... a home keyboard. It's a tease, because it does so many other things so well.

I probably shouldn't hold out much hope, as the answer from a Yamaha rep here on the forum regarding the key size issue that was raised by a few other forum members was something to the effect: "Yes Yamaha's keys may be smaller, but Yamaha has been making keys this way for ?? years ( maybe 95 ? ). We're not going to change that".

Maybe Yamaha doesn't really care if I buy someone else's board. Cool. I can live with that. Their attitude toward their customers has become much more apparent to me since I began reading the forum on for their flagship workstation at the Motifator site.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-20-2004).]

The point I was making as the thread progressed was how through years of playing on cheesy keyboards factored into how I view keyboards now... I fully appreciate anyone who is used to heavy action on the board. However, after years of plastic pushing I'd like it no other way...
Thanks for the response Aj, as I will start doing some OT for the upgrade..
DJ

I guess I'm missing something here !! Obviously some will like "mushy" keys (PSR) and others will like "box" keys - and some will like Magnus keys (maybe not too many). I wonder how many like boxers vs briefs or auto transmissions vs standard transmissions. It doesn't make either right or wrong, better or worse. I like the PSR keys myself - my hands are just tired of piano keys and PSR's key are easier for me to use - doesn't make the piano keys wrong. My Roland keyboards were pretty mushy if I remember correctly. This reminds me of another thread that was on this BBS recently - Arranger keyboards vs "real musicians" keyboards !!

vc

------------------
Vern

Not quite what I was getting at Vern, but your point is taken. I've never been caught up in arranger vs "pro" stuff. It isn't about that for me. The point for me is having a sturdy instrument that feels sturdy and can withstand the rigors of my playing and transporting. That to me is what a "pro" instrument should be, arranger or otherwise.

I've played or tried many synths and arrangers over the years, and the PSR series just feels more flimsy than any of them. I don't want piano keys either, just something comparable to most of the other synths out there would suit me fine.

DJ, of course it's always best to give a new board a good workout before you try it. The 3000 might just be a winner for you. If your main problem with the 2000 series is the guitar sounds though, I'm not certain what the upgrade would mean to you. Perhaps there will be other features and sounds that make the difference. Only you can decide that.

Realsitic guitar sounds are not so easy to emulate on any board. We're getting closer with the megavoice type technology, but really any keyboard based controller is different from plucking a real string.

Musiclabs, who make the Slicy drummer and Rythym and Chords plug ins for Cakewalk and Cubase, is due to release a new software very soon, that may do a very nice job of guitar emulations. Of course, it may be hard to tell from listening to demos, but it might be worth a listen and a trial download when it comes out.

Among the most realistic electric guitar emulations I've heard up to this point have come from the Korg Oasys soundcard. They were very expensive, and I am not sure whether they are in production any more, but every now and then they seem to surface on ebay or other places.

Hope the 3k is all you want it to be DJ.

AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-21-2004).]

AJ,

My comments weren't really aimed at chastizing anyone, especially you. I agree with the majority of your comment - just that I've seen similar threads before on "good" and "bad" keys. And really, it's what a particular player is comfortable with that is important - whether mushy or stiff. I don't think I'm a "bad" guy because I drive an automatic, wear briefs and play "mushy" keys.

Oh Well, I've probably bashed this subject enough!

vc

vc

What I will add which I have said before is....the PSR 2000 had the cheapest worst key feel on any board I have ever played in any store anywhere, including K Mart. IMO
Terry


------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Ditto Terry. You said pretty much what I think a lot more efficiently than I did, but yesterday was my day to rant I guess..lol

DJ, I totally understand money issues, so I'd suggest giving the 3k a real hard look, along with some other options. If the guitar sounds are your biggest issue with the 2k, and you are happy with it otherwise, there are other possibilities for the studio ( or even live if you already have a laptop ).

Softsynths / Samplers...
By the time the 3k comes out, Musiclabs should have released it's "Real Guitar". IThe demos make me think it uses it's own pro[pietaty "megavoice" technology. There are other options as well. One of the other demo's I tried did a megavoice type thing. If I can remember which one it is or still have the demo, I'll let you know.

I'm no expert on acoustic sounds for the soft stuff, but in passing I did hear some that rivaled or exceeded anything I have on my hardware keys. I bet Frank Rosenthal knows what sounds good in that area though. My main focus was to improve my analog / synth sounds, and I did that substantially with softsynths. I have virtual modular / analog synths that a few years back I could only dream of ( because of the prohibitive costs ). Next task for me is to focus on upgrading my acoustic instrument soundset. I want to do that without changing hardware, although the Motif ES' OS bothers me just enough that I still might change it anyway. If I discover anything good, I'll let you know DJ. Meanwhile, if you are inclined, you could check out http://www.kvr-vst.com

AJ

AJ
(It's apparent to me that you wanted to be sarcastic right from the start,)

Sorry AJ. Yes I did. But I thought you high level dudes could take a poke in the ego once in awhile. While I did mean to be sarcastic I did not mean to wound anyone. Sorry. Have a nice day.

Now I will return to my studio (Oops) garage and try to play on my mushy keys. Sorry

As to the PSR3000. If it is a large of an upgrade to the 2100 I will buy one.
But for my purposes 2100 is a fine choice.
A lot of bang for the buck.
Smokey

I guess I look at this issue quite differently than most. I currently own a pair of 2000s, both of which are programmed identically for usage at a dozen different venues. The 2000 provides me with all the neat things anyone could ever wish for and then some. However, if for one moment I thought the 3000 would provide me with the ability to improve my playing, performing or entertainment skills, I would buy it in a heartbeat--it's that simple.

The second part of the equation is I would have to go about the arduous task of programming the 3000, song by song, style by style and gig by gig (job), saving the information in the keyboard's memory, then saving it again in my desktop computer so it can be transferred to the back-up 3000 that I would also purchase.

The bottom line is that in my case, this would take a couple months of work, lots of practice so I could navigate through the keyboard's OS and eliminate dead time between songs, plus cost me about $3,500 for the two boards and accessories.

I'll probably take a long, hard look at the 3000 when it hits the streets in mid July. Until then, I'll reserve judgement about the board that only a handful of dealers has even seen, none that I know of have touched, and few have ever heard. As for the keys, no one on this or any other board has the slightest idea how they feel or are spaced--no one. If they feel the same as all the other Yamaha boards I've owned, that's fine. It doesn't make a tinker's damned to me personally--I'll play just as bad either way!

Cheers,

Gary

That's not what you said. Your note suggested that "others" should do and think as you did: buid a bridge and get over it. If you wanted to let us know you meant it didn't bother you, your ending line should have been "It doesn't bother me. I built a bridge and got over it."

I'm not the worlds greatest keyboardplayer, but I do understand what Bluezplayer means. Same goes for me when I'm talking about drums. If some drummer comes to me and tells me the action of the standard Tama basspedal is ok, I too will respond that the level I play drums, the action is useless. Too bad if this sounds patronizing to someone less skilled in playing an instrument, but I hate it when someone tells me something is good enough simply because it's good enough for HIM.

And drop the sarcasm please.

------------------
Roland EXR-5 user - http://www.exr5.tk

Bluezplayer, in general, is correct concerning his assessment of soft/virtual accoustic sounds vs mega voices. Today you can purchase guitar sounds that will exceed the quality and flexibility of the mega voices. The way this is done is as follows:

Ecellent Guitar samples with release samples
Velocity switching
Key switching
Effects, e.g., Amplitude
And so on.....

For example, with key switching you can instantly bring in a new sample. If you wanted to change from pick guitar to finger guitar you would just press a key in the lower left end of your keyboard. Similarly, if you wanted to produce a slide sound you would again just press a lower key assigned to do this. This makes the whole thing very playable - in a studio or as a keyboard player in a band. In addition, many different sounds can be created with velocity switching as well.

If this is not enough you can buy samples which include live guitar picking/chording to insert into your sequences.

So as can be seen you can do everything you wish with soft virtual acoustic instruments. Plus they will sound very good - one guitar may have say 400mb of samples.

All of this is not to say that the keyboard companies do not do a good job with small samples. They do. It just does not measure up to the Big Guys.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 02-21-2004).]

Good thing this is America and we can "agree to disagree"...................

Frank,

I am somewhat interested myself in upgrading my acoustic guitar soundset. I'm going to wait to try out Musiclabs "Real Guitar" for myself, since it's due to be released soon. If it doesn't satisfy my wants, what would be some good alternatives to it ? I was pretty impresssed with a soundset I heard on one of the demos I tried, but I can't remember who put it out there.. I tried so many demos when I was searching for better analog stuff. I wish I could just play guitar better instead, but my skills just won't cut it in some of my songs.

BTW, I'd like to get my hands on an Oasys card, if anyone wants to get rid of one or knows where there is one to be found. I heard a piece with a distorted electric guitar on it, that came from the Oasys. It was one of the rare times I was totally fooled by an emulation. I'd have never guessed had I not known beforehand. I'm sure that a lot of it had to do with the skill of the player who did it too, but I seriously doubt that he or she could have made such an accurate rendition with any of the equipment sitting here in this studio.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-21-2004).]

Bluezplayer, not knowing what your preferences are, here are some sampled guitars that may be interesting:

Jazz guitars http://www.bardstownaudio.com http://www.spectrasonics.net/hzguitar2.html http://vsl.co.at/english/pages/profile/news/product_news.htm http://www.vintaudio.com/ http://vrsound.com/ http://www.yellowtools.de/index2_e.htm http://www.zero-g.co.uk/index.cfm?articleid=1 http://www.quparts.com/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi http://www.bigfishaudio.com/4DCGI/index.html http://www.biggagiggas.com/

Plus many more. You could look on the Tascam and Northern Sound sites as well. They handle a number of sound developers' products. I believe Steinberg has a guitar VST synth. In all of this you can usually find a guitar that will do the job for you. The same is true for any other acoustic or electronic instrument. It should be noted that the keyboard manufacturers buy samples from these sound developers and cut the sample size to suite there needs.

Also, as noted previously there are very good guitar effects out there, e.g., Amplitube (http://www.amplitube.com/). You can send midi messages to control distortion, overdrive, etc. Some of these samples have these effects built in and you can keyswitch them.

I hope this helps.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 02-21-2004).]

AND,

(If some drummer comes to me and tells me the action of the standard Tama basspedal is ok, I too will respond that the level I play drums, the action is useless. Too bad if this sounds patronizing to someone less skilled in playing an instrument, but I hate it when someone tells me something is good enough simply because it's good enough for HIM.)

Who might 'Burkels' be patronizing. Am I reading this as those that might have an opinion that the PSR2100 keys are OK for them - are "less skilled in playing an instrument" - or is that too broad of an interpretation ?

vc

------------------
Vern

Thanks much Frank. I know a little about Steinberg's Virtual guitarist series. It seems that it generally gets mixed reviews, but I pretty much like what I've heard from the demos. I've heard of some of the others you mentioned, but am not very familiar with any of them, so I'll be glad to give them a look, along with Musiclabs' new software. Thanks again for the reply.

AJ

Beachbum, the originator of this thread, already owns a PSR2000. He states that he is very happy with his PSR2000. He muses and asks whether it is worth it for him to upgrade to the PSR3000.

All this stuff about keyfeel is impertinent to this thread. The thread is about whether someone who owns and is happy with a PSR2000 should upgrade to a PSR3000.

Here are my opinions:

1. The ability to store as many styles as you want and immediately access them is a big plus for the PSR3000.
2. The ability to access alternative intros and endings with just one touch is also a big touch.
3. Better guitar sounds, bass sounds, and live drum sounds plus some other new voices. That's a big plus.
4. More onboard styles - you probably have already downloaded the Tyros styles - that's a big plus - especially since you can create registrations of these styles.
5. A new keyboard that is under warranty as opposed to an old keyboard not under warranty - that deserves some consideration. If you get the PSR3000, get the survival kit that extends the warranty if available. Or buy it with your visa to double the warranty.
6. Color screen? Big deal.

If you're an amateur and have the money, go for it. If you're a professional, you can't afford not to upgrade, IMO.

Beakybird

Thanks for the replies.
I think I will upgrade when the 3000 hits the street. You have all brought up some interesting points. Plus as I'm accustom to the cheesy keyboard it will be just like having a 2000 with more features...
Thanks again,
DJ

One of the neat features of those "Cheesy PSR keyboards," at least in my case, is that they paid for themselves the first week I owned them. Every dime that came in after that first week was icing on the cake!

Gary

I use a 2100; had used a 2000, 740, 640, 630 .... kept upgrading as Yamaha kept introducing upgrades, and I WILL upgrade to the 3000, because:

ease of use, light to carry, good sound if you know to use it, can get used to the key feel if you want to ( If I was too finiky I would never progress !!), good styles and voices; Over all a Good Arranger Vs cost Vs Other available options !!

ATB
Michael

Worth It?.....


If it makes you Happy or makes you Money its worth it! Oherwise just wait for the new Tyros!

Hi Guys,

Just found this forum so this is my first post! I'm just curious if anyone out there uses a MIDI controller such as an 88-key Fatar for live gigs?

Since buying a Fatar for my little project studio, I couldn't imagine performing in front of an audience without its weighted key feel for piano/keyboard sounds.

I realise for most, hauling around an additional 88-key controller would be a bit too much though.

Carrie

I'v thought about a 61 Fatar KB & LT arr software combo for my stage gigs....but it seems the technology isnt ready for that yet.....I hope it will be available in the near future..I'm a stickler for Lightweigh, asy transport when it comes to my gear!

PS.. Welcome to the SZ

Hi Carrie,

Welcome to the asylum. A little insanity seems to go a long way here, but we all have lots of fun. As for the key feel, it's an issue with some folks here, but the main features that most seem to want are quality voices and a variety of great sounding styles. As for packing an 88-key rig on the job, it would be too cumbersome for the vast majority of the performing artists on this, or most other sites.

Cheers,

Gary

The key feel on the Casio WK3500 is great. On a Casio!!! There is no reason (other then greed) for Yamaha not to match the Casio quality of keys.
Bluezplayer said, "I thought that the 2k's organs needed updating too". The PSR1500/PSR3000 are to have organ modeling. We'll see if that makes a difference.
Starkeeper

Hi Carrie, what kind of music are you performing on your Fatar?

For 2 years I gigged with a Roland A-80 master keyboard, along with a Yamaha EMT-10 sound module. It was really nice having the 88 weighted, piano action, ivory keys, but...

As Gary mentioned, in the end it became just too cumbersome (about 100lbs in its flight case) requiring two people to move.. and an estate car!

I later switched to a 76-key Roland D-70/PRO-E combo.

I still have the A-80... they don't make 'em like that anymore...

All the best,
Rich

Hi Rich,

I don't perform anywhere at the moment. I was in a goth/rock band for a while and used my Yamaha CS6x for gigs as it was mostly strings and synth sounds.

While I was still living in America (moved to England 3 years ago), I used to play for a restaurant occasionally which was great cause I played all my own stuff on the piano. I threw in the odd Jim Brickman, Yanni and show tunes too. lol.

I guess I'm not as bothered about key feel as some people because my keyboards tend to stay in my little home studio most of the time, and all I ever play is the Fatar SL-880 controller!

Your music is really good Rich! I was pleasantly surprised when I listened to it. You look like Keanu Reeves too, which is never a bad thing in my book. lol.



Carrie

Hi Carrie,

I'm not performing anywhere at the moment either...

It seems you used to play the same sort of music at your restaurant gigs as I did at mine (a Chinese restaurant in Southsea). I also found it the right kind of environment to play my own music (which is mostly instrumental piano-based music anyway).

Regarding key feel... I played my niece's Yamaha PSR290 last week... didn't even think to notice what the key feel was like, we were having too much fun! heheh

I'm glad you enjoyed the songs on my website, thanks Do you have anything available to listen to?

All the best,
Rich

Hi Carrie,

A BIG welcome to the Synthzone forum !

Getting my start as a piano player, I used to gig with a 76 note fully weighted piano action Fatar 1176 , but even that got too much of a pain to drag around. Admittedly, it took a some (a LONG) time (months) to adjust o playing on a synth action board, but now feel the time wood shedding was well worth the time & effort. I had no problem adjusting to the squishy feel synth weight keys of my PSR2000 (rumored to be the same feel as the PSR3000). Just take the approach to playing synth keys different than playing piano keys and you'll be fine with the PSR3000 or Tyros (the one I own).

Carrie, Would love to hear your music.

Scott
http://scottyee.com

No dis-respect intended but the PSR2000 keys felt like utter crap next to my Roland VA5.

I don't quite understand the fuzz about the keyfeel... Allthough I find 2k's keys easiest to use so far, I'm not scared of different keyfeels. I set my priorities, when upgrading, in sounds mostly, styles and OS. And of course at least 61 keys... And so on and so on...

I'm sure everyone has his/hers own priorities in these things and others too.

And keyfeel gets the most fuzz... I just don't get it.. But I don't even have to!

Well said YamBox!! The sound is what counts the most...........If key feel is such an issue, why can't one use a midi controller keyboard with the PSR? I get tired of keyboards always being compared to a piano. I was never a piano player. Our home always had a console organ. Key timing and release were more important than velocity and "feel". Don't blame YOUR instrument because it doesn't behave like a different one..................

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the warm welcome Unfortunately I don't have any of my stuff uploaded anywhere anymore. Before mp3.com shut down I had tons of it on there... I'm sure there are tons of other places I could upload some - it's just finding the time!

Carrie

I will be looking at the 3k as an upgrade to my 2k as it looks like the extras are worth the money and fit my need, especially the smartmedia and USB stuff.

Yamaha, if you're watching, yes, the PSR key feel is a nuisance of sorts; but, hey, like some others have said, the issue for me is great sounds and styles. No live player here. Only using your products to create a rhythm track to a hard disc recorder, where the fun really begins.