My current playing challenge is trying to figure out how to best emulate the sound of an acoustic pedal or lap steel guitar on the arranger keyboard (in auto accomp mode).

Because my style of auto accompaniment mode playing requires my left hand to be fully occupied playing 3-4 note chords, it's simply NOT possible (for me) to utilize the keyboard's pitch bend and/or mod wheel for note bend & vibrato, an important ingredient of pedal & lap steel guitar playing.

Because of this, I need to assign these functions to footpedal control & keyboard aftertouch instead. In my search for the appropriate controller function to use to emulate the gliding of the metal bar from one note to another (often a full octave), I've discovered that Tyros' dedicated foot controller 'glide' function combined with 'portamento' more effective than a footpedal activated 'pitch bend', which merely switches between two distinct notes (including no tones in between), while foot pedal activated 'glide' and 'portamento' include ALL the tones between (the cracks) as well. In addition, both 'glide' and 'portamento' not only allow you to set the degree (interval range) of the bend, but the speed (transition time) between these notes as well. For note vibrato, I assign this to 'keyboard aftertouch', giving it a slight delay before it kicks in. For steel guitar playing, I assigned my Tyros custom 4 pedal unit as follows: from left to right:

Portamento; Break; Fill Self; Glide

I realize that I've just begun in my journey of figuring out how to best emulate an acoustic Steel Guitar when playing in auto accomp mode on an arranger keyboard. Unfortunately I couldn't find specific information on this topic when searching on Google. However, I did discover an article on the GENERAL topic: "keyboard emulation of acoustic instruments" which I found to be informative: http://www.iaekm.org/0307_fe_1.html

Realizing that listening to recordings & actually watching how pro acoustic steel guitar players play their instrument to be the best way to figure out (at this point) how to emulate what their doing on the arranger keyboard, I discovered these instructional videos (WMV) clips:

Country Pedal Steel Guitar: http://209.130.127.3/Homespun_Tapes/VD-BOU-ST01_Guitar2.wmv

Hawaiian Steel Guitar: http://209.130.127.3/Homespun_Tapes/VD-BOB-HW01_Guitar2.wmv

Lap Steel Guitar: http://209.130.127.3/Homespun_Tapes/Steel_Guitar_Cashdollar2.wmv


Advice, tips, and input from others here with experience playing (emulating) the Pedal Steel or Hawaiian Steel Guitar on the arranger keyboard would be appreciated.

Who knows, I may even attempt to add a steel guitar flavored Christmas song to my holiday repetoire now.

Thanks in advance for input and feedback.

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 12-06-2004).]

I have from time to time realized at least a "semi-passion" for pedal steel guitar, though my PSG emulation on keyboard has been mediocre, but I'll tell you what I've learned.

You must utilize pitch bend (obvious) and a volume pedal (not so obvious). Listen to a real PSG and you will hear bends up, bends down, single note bends within a chord, and cresendos within a single note or chord. This is frequently used, therefore the need for volume pedal. You will also hear delayed vibratos as well as immediate vibratos. Aftertouch delay is a good choice.

Portamento does not work, at least not for me. Perhaps with the foot pedal using it ocassionally it would. Glide is a function not present in the SD1, I'm curious how it alone would work. Interestingly, the voice used seems to be not that important. The best MIDI PSG I ever heard used a GM flute voice!

Keep listening to PSG and try to objectively analyze what's happening to make each and every sound you hear. I once found an internet radio station that played pedal steel guitar music 24/7. Must be some people who are more than semi-passionate about that sound.

Glenn

Scott:
I play a lot of pedal steel on the 9000 and have been working to try and get the sound right also. I have a edge on you in one respect, I have a super talented psg player setting on my left for a bunch of country/western gigs we do.
I've been trying to get his sound over on the keyboard for a couple of years. No way! when the real sound is there to compare. (but) when we work together doing two steels running (playing different parts) it blends to where people don't know who's playing what. He uses two instruments on different ocassions each has a different sound The carter steel has a more treble sound, and the cadilac of all steels the sierra is mellow and a little easier on the ears. The keyboard does this one great. even fools the pro.
after much fiddling with the sound I've ended up with (pedal one on sustain # two on glide one note down, and set the wheel on 12 note bend. I use the harmony on, most of the time and select diferent harmonies for different songs and store this in the registrations, most of the songs is set on straight 3 part, hawaiian songs usually get duet. Takes a lot of twinking to get it close usually set the harmony at a much lower volume. also use the reverb to suit and a touch of dsp plus a small amount of chorus.
I find the most important part is the technic used to play, I pretty well know what the typical hits and riffs the steel player does, get a few of these under your belt (listen to old pedal steel country) and you'll be surprised what a difference it makes in the sound. One other thing, do the music in the keys that most country songs are done in. #1 most used key is E #2 is A #3 G these are the keys that sound more realistic on the keyboard.
Don't know if this will help, but lets you hear others opinions.
Here's one hit thats about the most common.
Transpose -8 hold down the pedal (set for 1 down glide), play G A C E as a cord three times let the glide pedal up after the third hit. Taa Taa pedal steel.
Sorry if this sounds very beginning for a ace key player like yourself, but thought others may be reading and wanting to give it a try...........Regards......Pose

Edited: I also use multiple keying for the left hand setup, this allows some free time for the pitch blend and fingering to augment the harmoniser. I also use the volume pedal on the mfc-10 to sustain out th PSG. also I don't think it possible to be able to bend indivigual note within the the steels chords but the left hand working the harmoniser, sort of gets the trick done.
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[This message has been edited by loungelyzard (edited 12-06-2004).]

[This message has been edited by loungelyzard (edited 12-06-2004).]

Glenn, thanks for sharing your PSG keyboard emulation experiences . I especially appreciate your keen observations regarding the MANY different types of sounds (bends: including single notes within a chord, glides, crescendos, etc) which are produced on an acoustic PSG. I realize now that it may not be IMPOSSIBLE to accurately reproduce all these sounds on an arranger keyboard, especially when playing live in auto-accompaniment mode. I suppose my aim now is to attempt to al least emulate 'enough' PSG sounds to give an overall impression of PSG or Hawaiian steel guitar playing.



Yes, I find Portamento best used 'only occasionally', to re-create the long bar slides between notes of large intervals.



The foot pedal activated 'Glide' function (on the Tyros) produces what 'Pitch Bend' does, activated from a dedicated pitch bend WHEEL controller. Activated with a Wheel or Stick, you're able to produce ALL the pitches of the specified note (bend) range, but unfortunately, the pitch bend controler function, triggered by foot pedal, only produces the bended note (with no notes in between). The 'Glide' function addresses this problem by including all the notes (and in between the cracks) of the entire note (bend) range. You're also able to set the speed rate of the transition. I realize the foot pedal activated 'Glide' function doesn't offer the playing flexibility and expression that a wheel activated pitch bending can, but it's the next best thing for us arranger players not able to access the pitch wheel, when both hands are already fully occupied playing the keys.

I'm begining to realize now that accurately emulating a PSG on the arranger (and via foot pedals to boot) will probably be impossible, but if I can at least provide the general impression & sound of an acoustic PSG , I'll be pleased.

I think my interest in PSG may have more to do with my closeted childhood fantasy to have learned to play it. I've recently toyed with the idea of taking PSG lessons, but at this stage, I think I'd better stick with the keyboard.


Pose, just read your reply and WOW, how lucky you are to have a PSG player (on stage) right next to you to pick up keyboard emulation pointers from. I would LOVE to hear a sample of your PSG emulation.



When you say pedal #2 is set to glide 'one note down', I assume you mean one semi-tone (1/2 step down), right?

Please tell me what settings you use for the following Glide parameters settings in your PSR9000's Glide Controller Window:

1) Up/Down
2) Range
3) On Speed
4) Off Speed

Also, are you able to concurrently operate the pitch wheel while playing (in auto accomp arranger mode) left hand keyboard as well? Because I can't I have to trigger Portamento (via footpedal) to produce the effect of large interval pitch bend gliding. The only problem is that Portamento doesn't work when 'harmony' is turned on.

Pose, do you utilize the Portamento feature (via footpedal) at all when emulating PSG? If so, what 'value' do you set the 'Portamento time' to?

Pose, many thanks again for all the wonderful tips you've given. As I mentioned earlier, it would be great to be able to hear a sample of your PSG emulation playing on your keyboard. Any chance you could post an MP3? I hope to have the opportunity to pick up some of your playing techniques.

Scott

Scott:
I'm not familiar with the tyros, so don't know what differences between tyros and 9000. But if the 9000 is in the multiple fingering mode, there is usually a small window of time that the L hand is free to use for pitch blend breaks fills etc.

Yes 1 down on the glide (1/2 step)

The 9000 dosn't have a glide controller that I know of other than being able to set the distance of the bend 1 to 24 I think, 12 being a octave. Also can set the pitch blend wheel 1 to 24. Note (psg's usually slide up a octave for effect so mines set at 12)

I do not use portamento, tried it once but could'nt see any value to it on the 9000.

The keyboard is not a Pedal steel guitar and can't be made to sound exactly like one as a keyboard is not a steinway Grand, but in my opinion the sounds are better on a keyboard.....By the way I've never heard of a acoustic pedal steel guitar? don't think they make such a thing. There's acoustic dobro, there is acoustic slide guitars, there is lap steel's and hawaain guitars, but pedal steel's are not acoustic in my knowledge. (they took a lap steel added legs and then set up a system to bend strings using pedals and knee levers, have seen 9 pedals and 4 knee levers. The volume pedal is mostly used for volume/sustaining, this is done by most players by cranking the amp to extreme highs and as the sound decays they gradually incress the volume.

Sorry I don't have the knowledge to make a mp3 have not figured out how this is done yet. (my electronics skill sucks). I have a computer that can burn cds but its in my office, and the keyboard in in my music room (which has a stage), don't have any recording equipment,other than quick record on the keyboard.

I can do a midi but it would'nt play correctly on your tyros, and I have no idea as of yet how to post on this forum. Sooo if your ever up this way on your way to Reno your more than welcome to drop by and I show you what's with the 9000, and you can answer a million questions from me.

One more thing of interest maybe, for the keyboard playing psg. I've had a lot of country players here, a couple of them steel men, they all are agast at the keyboard doing steel music, and each one says it better and in stereo........Best wishes.....Pose




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Scott...
Are you able to tweak the attack and the slope. Reason I ask is I needed to create the sliding synth/brass piece for the bridge in Elton John's "Saturday Night's Alright for Fighting".(the Dm at the end of the C-Bb-G)
It worked out very well.
Running with that concept, it would make sense that you could create or come pretty darn close to the slide effect of a Steel Guitar. Obviously nothing will truly replicate an actual steel guitar, but....you might come dangerously close!

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...L

There is acoustic pedal steel guitar. They are usually called pedal dobros. http://www.bradivarius.com/pedalsteel.html

Hi I guess I stand corrected, should have known somebody out there would combine two guitars into one. He sure went to alot of trouble, could have bought a electronic device that changes the sound of the pedal to dobro for a couple hundred bucks.....thanks for the info...pose

Actually, Paul Franklin SR. invented it, but I couldn't find any pics or info about his on the web. Many country recordings coming out of Nashville use pedal dobro.
Anyway, now that I've deflected the topic, I'll just say that the Roland SRX world card has some fine pedal steel sounds, and even a few riffs played on a steel that can come in handy in certain situations. So for all you up-and-comer G70 owners who want to be pedal steel players, get the SRX-09.

" Us arranger players have the best of both worlds. We can emulate just about any instrument on our arrangers, but I'd like to steel a steel guitar player try to get a piano sound from his steel guitar.

Jerry"

midi pickup " Anyway the topic.

Scottyee Pending what type of controllers you have in your setup, perhaps you could use a breath controller in place of foot pedals or pitch bend. Something else that could help...past just using duel voices, tune the second voice to be like a 3rd 5th 7th whatever of the first voice. Then just split the keyboard into random octaves and commit near murder "

Thank you shboom, FAEbGBD, Alone&Forsaken, lougelyzard, and Jerryghr, for your added valuable contributions.



Unfortunately it's not enough of a window of time for me to accomplish. I had thought that many of the critical PSG pitch bend changes need to occur right 'during' the (chord) changes. The only way to keep the left hand chord voice (acoustic piano) continuing to sound (rather than abruptly end) while operating the pitch bend 'wheel' is to set the left voice to 'hold' or utilize the sustain (damper) pedal. Pose, do you do this?




Right you are, and the costly Steinway Grand can never even begin to approach sounding like a Pedal Steel Guitar either.




It makes perfect sense that a REAL steel guitar player would be against emulating on the keyboard what THEY worked hard (for years) to accomplish on the real thing. As with all real instruments playing, compared to the Synthesizer emulation of the same, there's NOTHING like the REAL thing (at least not yet). That said, I'm unclear about the last part of your sentence: "each one says it better and in stereo". Can you please clarify what is meant by this?

On a final note, has ANYONE here used a keyboard 'ribbon controller' to emulate the pitchbends & glides of pedal steel guitar playing? I would think this could produce the most realistic sounding results, though this obiviously requires taking one of your hands OFF the keyboard (to play) as well.

Thanks,

Scott

Good suggestion. I had actually contemplated this myself, but unfortunately my keyboard (Yamaha Tyros) doesn't support one. Now that you mention it, I'd sure like to see breath controller input support on Tyros II. Steve Deming, please add this to my Tyros II wishlist !



Another good suggestion, which would allow you to apply pitch bend to only a selected number of notes in the chord, in the same way you can with the pedals on a real PSG. Curious if any PSG emulating kb players have actually done this? Not sure what you mean by the 'random' octaves though

Scott



[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 12-06-2004).]

For any others interested, I just discovered a terrific website link which demonstrates, both with audio clips and musical notation, how to emulate the sound of a Pedal Steel Guitar with Pitch Bend (or Glide if utilizing a footpedal) and Volume Pedal. This supports Glenn Toth's approach. Gotta grab that volume pedal out of the closet now and give it a try. Here's the link:
http://www.fenderplayersclub.com/pdfs/lessons/pedal_steel_licks.pdf

Scott

Scott:

To answer about small window of time, I usually just use a appropreate style with just the basic bass drums and guitar going. This frees up the left hand. (in my opinion the biggest mistake non country players make is to put to much junk in,trying to supe it up. Country is very basic music, no organs string sections etc).
If you are working the left hand doing a guitar backing (or piano) there is no window open. but if your letting the style do most of the work, there is time. I sometimes do activate the hold on the left, but not usually on country, continous sound on country usually dosn't fit.

Real steel players comments...what I was meaning is they of course don't think a keyboard even comes close to a steel guitar, but the sound they hear, of a performed country song with a steel lead in stereo, sounds so clean and tight the overall results is outstanding. Nothing fancy just clean sound.

I would guess if you persist in honing your skills on the tyros (getting all the right settings to make it the easeist way to operate) then perfected the riffs etc. you can probably get a very good go at the pedal steel. I'm content to do a simulation and the only critics are other musicians, most listeners are listening to the tune and the overall sounds they hear, not realising they're hearing a live computer chip being played.

Question: I beieve you made mention that the tyros had a way to change the bend speed when using glide on a pedal. The 9000 seems only to bend matching the BPM of the tune. This is to slow at times, does the tyros let you speed up the duration?

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I've tried to play a simple tune with a standard pedal steel guitar.

blue bayou

Hope you like it.

Exound:
Yeaaah I like it. Verrrry nice job. or as they say down south (real purty) lovely backing and nice trills on the guitar.

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Exound, nice "Blue Bayou" lead solo line incorporating pitch bend & vibrato.

Were the 'uniquely' pedal steel guitar sounding 'pads' & 'fills' (which include pitch glide (or portamento?) & pitch blending) which can be heard in the background, played by you as well, or are they part of the auto accompaniment backing itself? I'd really like to learn how to incorporate those pedal steel guitar effects in my 'live playing'. Exound, many thanks for sharing. - Scott

Thnx loungelyzard and Scott.

No like I said it is a very simple tune.
The Country Ballad (2) style on the PA1x is great and has all the credits.
I only play the melody with a pedal steel guitar sound which is one of the STS (or OTS on Yamaha I think)in that style, and can be played better if I practice more.

Jan

There's the answer, Scott... trade the Ty in for brand new PA1x!

After reading this post I decided to give it a go with the Tyros Pedal Steel Guitar using my sustain pedal and the Glide feature.

You have to realize I put this song together in about 5 minutes and I made it up as I went along. I wanted to let people hear the Tyros Pedal Steel Guitar using the Glide function not present any particular musical composition as such. This is for demonstration purposes only.

Tyros Pedal Steel Guitar using Glide function

Best regards,
Mike

PS: And yes Scott, this is little 'ol me playing - NOT a midi file.

Using footpedal glide (for sure) provides a smoother sounding bended note transition & glide then foot pedal activated pitch bend. Mike, nice demo created by 'you' . I'm also really impressed with the sound of the auto accomp rhythm guitar backing. Suggestion: try utilizing a volume pedal instead of sustain, as according to both GlennT and Dale Turner: http://www.fenderplayersclub.com/pdfs/lessons/pedal_steel_licks.pdf

this gives the PSG emulation an even more authentic sound.

Thanks for sharing. - Scott

Exound...Bravo..Very nice sound, nice job.
My first big rush from a steel or Hawaiian guitar came from "Hawaiian Tatoo, by the Waikiki's sometime back in the early 60's.

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...L

I realize that since I'm basically a 'novice' using the Glide feature on the Tyros that my demonstration has a few "flaws" in it. After converting it to an .mp3 (from a .wav file) and listening to it on headphones I noticed the flaws more. The flaws being an unnatural bend sound in a couple of spots.

With a little practice (maybe a whole lot ), and possibly using a volume pedal as you suggested, I might start to get the hang of it eventually.

Hummmm... A Volume Pedal?!?!? Maybe an early Christmas present is in order. We'll see...

Best regards,
Mike

Btw, what would be a good choice in a volume pedal for the Tyros? Is the Yamaha FC7 volume pedal the way to go or are there better choices available? The Yamaha FC9 is a 'dual' volume pedal that controls 2 instruments and has other additional features but I suppose that would be overkill, right?

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 12-08-2004).]

I use a Technics SZ-E2 Volume pedal on my Tyros (because I owned a Technics keyboard previously), but if you want a Yamaha brand pedal, ask Santa for an FC7: http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMFC7?trk=smx

Scott

Here is a song my engineer and I worked up last night. He's not really a musician, but a great studio engineer. He is singing and playing acoustic guitar. He wanted to do this up quick for a Christmas present/surprise for his family and friends.I am doing everything else electric guitar, harmony, and keyboard. Oh, I did the acoustic guitar for the end little ditty. I'm using the Roland Fantom X. All drums, bass, and dobro were done on Fantom, with expansion boards. I did no sequencing; it's live playing, and you can here some timing issues. I'm posting it just so you can hear what the dobro from the SRX world card sounds like. Yes, I'm using the pitchbend.. Not applicable to arranger keyboards, but thought you might all be interested to hear it nonetheless. www.depotmusicpros.com/music/Long%20Black%20Train%20Mastered.MP3

Hi Rory: Nice rendition of Josh Turner's "Long Black Train". Terrific session with (as expected) impressive backup harmony & keyboard playing (by you) showcasing the Roland Fantom's great sounds. btw: awesome dobro emulation there. Listening to your impressive mix really has me really wishing that Roland could have rounded out Fantom's excellent sounds with equally impressive arranger styles on the G70. Unfortauntely, according to the G70 review by Roel, this this didn't happen. - Scott