Does anyone here use the full keyboardA1 fingering setting on the psr 2100?
I JUST got mine - my first arranger keyboard! I'm still so overwhelmed - but using this type of fingering seems to give me a more "natural" sounding song, not so canned, at least at this point!
This place is a wealth of info, and I just want to say thanks in advance!

Jill

I use nothing but full fingered mode on my keyboards. The other modes cramp my style so I could never use a keyboard like the DGX series. However, it's a matter of personal choice. Most folks seem to use the other fingering modes.

Bryan

I also own a DGX300, which I do love, what I ended up doing there was editing a midi file down to bare bones, just drums, bass, maybe a little "fluff", and playing full piano along with it.

I'm finding I'm having to re edit each midi, now with the 2100 - which is taking alot of tweaking, but I think will sound 100 times better in the long run.
My hubby is still not convinced it sounds "better" than the DGX300, (both are hooked up to my2 peavy 2lx speakers) but I find the voices sooo rich.

I had a Yamaha keyboard in the early 90s, I did learn their "fingering" approach back then, but being trained as a pianist, I find that approach sometimes stifles my sound/creativity I guess.

Jill

I use full fingered mode occasionally, but don't you have to ensure you play a full chord on every chord change?
Starkeeper


[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 09-25-2003).]

Hi Jill


Welcome to Synthzone and congratulations on your new keyboard (PSR2100).

I almost exclusively play (both my Tyros & PSR2000) in 'full' fingered mode, and fully agree (with you) that this provides a much more natural realistic performance, especially (of course) with the 'left' voice turned 'ON'.

The #1 ingredient to a more convincing LIVE (vs canned) pro arranger kb performance is to make sure that you're playing LIVE as much as possible 'throughout' the song, keeping the auto accompaniment to function only as a background/supporting role.

With styles which include piano/keyboard auto accompaniment parts, I ALWAYS mute (or delete) them and make sure that I play these parts LIVE myself (left voice). I particularly find most 'auto accompaniment' piano/keyboard parts to sound pretty stiff (canned), and that playing them LIVE with more creatively played & varied full chord voicings (both root & rootless) adds a dramatic degree of realism to provide a much more LIVE (realistic) sound. I urge everyone to develop full left hand chord playing keyboard skills if at all possible. This way, in addition to playing the right parts live, adding fully voiced left hand chord played live, decreases the amount of auto accomp (canned) parts (instruments) heard. I typically restrict asssignment of the left voice to: piano, organ, synth, or strings.

Scott

Thanks Scott -
what is the main difference between the two full fingered modes the 2100 offers:
Are you using the "full keyboard" or the "full A1keyboard"??

I'm trying both, I just have so many questions that keep coming up, and really trying to learn this!

I have a rock gig/clambake with a singing partner in a week, but we'll probably use my trusty old DGX300, as that is what we use in practice and I'm still so new to this board and it's settings.

Jill

Jill: The ONLY difference is that 'Fingered' mode requires that at least a 3 note chord (root, 3rd & 5th) be played while 'A1 Fingered' will (in addition) recognize the triad when only 2 notes (root & 3rd) are played. BOTH 'Fingered" & 'A1 Fingered' recognize standard root included as well as rootless 'jazz' type chord voicings. I typically play in 'Fingered' mode, but I may now switch to 'A1 Fingered' for its added chord option.

Scott

Scott,
Very interesting, I will see if this will work on my PSR550. For organ, synth and strings, I assume you hold the chord down. What type of rythm do you use for piano mode?
Whenever I used full keyboard mode, I use piano in full mode (no split). I have to nail the chord on the change, otherwise the accompaniment does not recognise it.
Starkeeper

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 09-25-2003).]

I'm liking the A1 real well - thanks so much for the input.
I still feel light years away from making this all "work" the way I want to!

Jill

Star

I haven't experienced any delay problems with chord recognition in 'fingered' mode.

I generally use the same type of 'keyboard comping' techniques used in non-arranger keyboard playing which include a combo of rhythmic playing and held chords along with some short fills played by the left hand. The advantage of 'fingered' mode vs 'A1 fingered' mode playing is that it allows you to play left voice fills playing 2 notes simultaneously instead of just single note fills with 'A1 fingered'.

On Technics arranger keyboards, I find full keyboard mode much better implemented. On Yamaha arrangers, the chord recognition in full keyboard mode, jumps inappropriately (creating unmusical resuslts) when you change the melody notes (which are within an octave of the left hand chords) in the right hand. I find 'fingered' mode on Yamaha arrangers much better implemented than 'full keyboard' as it allows you to play the same professional type 'two hand' piano comping patterns used when playing an acoustic piano with a real live band: the left hand playing the core chord voicing to establish the desired chord recognition by the arranger (typically including the 3rd and 7th, and root, or perhaps an extension: 13th or 9th, with the right hand chord notes providing the other upper structure chord tones which might include altered tensions: b9, #11, etc. This Split 'fingered' mode provides more right hand note freedom to include chord tone alterations which will not unintentially change the arrangers chord recognition by mistake.

Jill: Looking forward to hearing your music on the PSR2100

Scott

great definitions Scott - I'm all over the A1 fingered, sounds SUPER!
Now I need to work on saving things; sounds, registrations, oh . . . .
lots of work, but fun work!
Worked on a great fleetwood mac tune today, thought I saved it (I know I did!) but all the settings were gone?
When it get it right - you'll hear it! LOL

Thanks again,

Jill

Jill,

Congrats on the 2100 and thank you for letting me know that you decided to go in that direction. It was a good choice I'm sure. I'm glad anyway, Aqs I had told you, I have mixed feelings on selling my PSR2000. There are many things I like about it and in some ways I really want to keep it and control it with another board. If I do sell it, I might wind up eventually going to the 2100 anyway. It depends on whether I like the PA1x from Korg better than my current Korg arranger ( PA80 ). It'llbe awhile before the 61 key version is released, so I may just hang on to what I have now until then.

The key feel is my main objection to the 2000 as it does not suit my style of play very well, but I have never found anything of better value for the 2000 / 2100 series boards' price. They are packed with great features at the price range they are in.

Good luck with it... and please do share some of your work with us.

AJ

Hi Jill,
I used to use the styles in my yamaha 9000 pro for creating midifile backing tracks ( to play along with). In sequencer: step record: I used to step record the chord progression & pick style parts and basically ended up with a midifile in a matter of minutes. Handy when I wanted to play a piano piece with an arpeggio left hand.

Not sure if your psr2100 has the same feature in it's sequencer, but I used to find it handy.

best wishes
Rikki

Might be easier starting from scratch, than editing all your DGX midifiles ( depending on the amount of editing required).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jillhumb:
[B]I also own a DGX300, which I do love, what I ended up doing there was editing a midi file down to bare bones, just drums, bass, maybe a little "fluff", and playing full piano along with it.

I'm finding I'm having to re edit each midi, now with the 2100 -

Thanks guys, I'm sure having aball with it!
I went back to "old skool" and played some old Vivaldi on strings and WOW - what a sound!

It's like a pair of shoes, needs to be worn a little, while I get comfortable in it - but I did play a few lovely songs tonite - just off the cuff, no rehearsal, trying out the styles, and my new info in my head, and sounded real good - did a Karen Carpenter song that was B eautiful! Even hubby agreed!
So, very pleased so far - I'll keep practicing and learning - and can't wait to share! Thanks so much for all the input!

Jill

Star, you'll have to adopt my technique. I play full chords in the left hand, mostly four notes, and generally keep them in the octave above middle C. I play root and rootless chords so I don't have to move my left hand too much. That way I can nail the chord on (or off) the beat. Doesn't matter what the right hand is doing unless I'm not playing a chord in the left hand. Then I play the chord in the right hand. That's where the full fingering comes in. Works quite well on the piano too without any accompaniment.

Bryan

Scott,
It sounds to me like you really don't use full mode at all, do you? You talk of left hand sounds, and splits as if the kb is in split mode. Is that the way you refer to "full kb mode" ? I'm just having a little trouble understanding your approach. Full kb (to me) means no split point.

Right you are UD. On Yamaha arrangers (Tyros, PSR2100, 9000pro, etc), I play in 'split' mode because I find Yamaha's 'full keyboard' mode chord recognition unacceptable.

For some reason (in ‘full keyboard’ mode), when you play a chord inversion with the left hand and then play (with your right hand), ANY note located within one octave above any of the notes being played with the left hand (other than the chord’s root note), the chord is recognized as an ‘on bass’ chord. This means that if you play a 1st inversion C7 chord (E2-G2-Bb2-C3) with your left hand, and play (in your right hand), the note E3 or G3, the chord will be recognized as an ‘on bass’ chord C7/E and the auto accompanmint bass part will play an E note repeatedly. This in itself isn't neccesarily bad, but it sounds jarring & inappropriate when playing a melody or soloing in the right hand, as the chord recognition (and associated bass pattern) abruptly shifts back and forth between C7 (C bass line pattern) and the C7/E ‘on bass’ note (single E note) as you play (with your right hand) the scale: C3 – D3- E-3 – F3 – G3, A3 – Bb3 – C4.

'Full keyboard' mode on Technics brand KN arranger keyboards, on the other hand, works well, allowing you to solo (play) any note contained in the 'chord scale' of the chord played with your left hand, without the auto accomp chord recognition abruptly switching to an 'on Bass' type chord.

Here's a link to an earlier thread on this topic:
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/002674.html

Scott

Pilot,
Thanks for the tip. I will try this. This is not the way piano is normally played IMO. Usually it's single fingered bass in the left with notes and/or chords in the right hand. I was watching Scott Houston's "Play Piano in a Flash" on Detroit PBS and he was telling students to play chords in the left hand, notes in the right??
Hey, I can do this. Playing chords in the left hand is a natural for organ/arranger players. What type of rhythm are you using for the left hand? Where did you learn this?
Star

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 09-26-2003).]

Hi Star,

It comes from playing an arranger keyboard. When I only played piano, it was almost all classical with only a few popular tunes. I originally got an arranger as a cheap midi controller but discovered I was an organist after all. I found that playing the way I described was good for getting the accompaniment going. Once you have played a chord, the accompaniment follows it, so you can play any old rhythm in the left hand provided you don't change the chord until you are ready. This is also the reason why I don't use the panel organs which don't have touch response. I like to play the left hand a little quieter so that it doesn't overwhelm the right hand.

Bryan