all this hype about the new korg, and the 62 note polyphony lets ask the owners of genysys ,it has the same amount ,do you get note dropout ,or have to sacrifice instruments,these boards seem very similar ZIGGY and PAULD lets hear your views,mike

[This message has been edited by nardoni2002 (edited 07-23-2003).]

The genesys does not have poly problems. I can not speak for Korg, but will assume they are also counting actual note played, and not counting osolators as polyphony. I play some very big note hungry songs to show off the genesys and not once have I had to change my playing style because of note drop. The numbers are played with to make an instrument on a spec sheet look more impressive than their competition rather that actually making the instrument sound impressive.

My advice, when the instrument isn't vapor wear and you can actually go and play the instrument, play a few of your poly intensive songs on the instrument and see how it performs.

Then for fun, check out a Genesys.


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Paul Davis
Generalmusic
Generalmusic.US

Paul,

I was told by a salesman (and took it to be a fact) that on WK4 (and WK8) certain sounds used more than one voice of polyphony per note, as those voices, due to internal layering (this is equivalent to Tyros layering up to 8 voices to get some of their better sounds). So that with 4 voiced layered per note, a 64-voice polyphonic instrument can only play 16 notes before running out of polyphony.

Are you telling us that Genesys uses only one note of polyphony per note played, regarding of quality of the sound?

If so, I think your company should emphacise this fact much more strongly, as this would be better than many competing intruments.

Regards,
Alex

Alex and Paul,
It is my understanding that "layers" of oscilators does in fact add to the number of notes used in all keyboards. Nothing in todays technology can change that. The Generalmusic sounds, if using one oscilator will be one figer played for each note of polyphony and if the sound is made from 2 oscilators (samples) then one note played takes away 2 notes of polyphony. Again, yamaha uses many 4 oscilator programs, Korg never can use more than 2 and I'm not sure how many Generalmusic sounds can use, but a good example of this would be in the Genesys's new brass 3 sound which uses many samples to create brass shakes when played hard and crecendos when played softly. there can be as many as 4 osilators in a sound like these and this could reduce polyphony by a lot. If Chris Anthony is reading this post, he could shed some more light on this subject.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

George,

Thank you for trying to address my concern. I understand the polyphony and the layers/waveforms issue well. As I mentioned elsewhere, my Roland G1000 uses no more than two waveforms/voices of polyphony per note played in its better voices. With its 64 voices of polyphony, and using some single- and some dual-waveform sounds, I find myself occasionally running out. I agree with you that this is a question of arithmetics and can not be helped. I also understand that Yamaha uses many 4-waveform and some up to 8-waveform sounds, which makes it not as capable than the 62 voice instrument which only uses 2 waveforms per voice max.

However, I understand that Kurzweil advertises "true polyphony", meaning that (unless I explicitly layer voices), ONE KEY PRESSED IS ONE NOTE PLAYED. I was merely asking Paul to clarify if this is how Genesys works as well, because if it does, it would surely put Genesys as the industry lead on the polyphony issue.

I still have my trusty Roland E-70, whose sounds are fairly decent. It is very user-friendly, albeit with only 28 note polphony. It uses only single-waveform sounds (though manages to sound very decent at that). This discussion makes me realize that despite its age, it is not too far from the technological forefront. Which means that if I want to sacrifice the polyphony for the sake of user-friendliness, all I relly need to do is go to my closet and get the E-70 out of its case...

George, I am not trying to make an argument with you, and sincerely appreciate you sharing your own knowledge and the information from the manufactures with us in this forum. However, our objectives are somewhat different here: as a dealer, you have to defend and promote the instruments which the manufactures make available for you to sell. On the other hand, I, as a consumer, have to prod the industry to make the instrument that I need. I see it in part as a personal failure that after making mine (and other users') needs available to them, and helping them save on the process of market analysis, we see our critical concerns being ignored. I also take issue with the manufacturers telling us what we need. This is condescending to the users, especially since many of the users in this forum either make or supplement their livelihoods playing music, and are probably more of a professional sort than 90% of the people bying Tritons. The other 10% get their instruments for free as manufacturers' promotions, even though most of them play pre-recorded music during most of the big-name shows. Therefore, I find the assertion that we can do with 31 voices of polyphony offensive. When I hear names of the big-name musicians (for whose instruments we, the paying customers, are indirecly made to pay) thrown into my face, I find it outright insulting (I am not referring to your post, but is often the gist of much promotional coming from the manufacturers).

I think that if the manufacturers had spent more effort listening to the users like us, they would save themselves much work trying to justify and defend their mistakes.

I am sorry if my comment sounds harsh, it's just that I was really was looking forward to getting a new instrument, only to realize that whatever else is probably not an improvement over my current gear.

REgards,
Alex

[This message has been edited by Alex K (edited 07-24-2003).]

Alex,

I wish I has a straight forward answer for you. But I do not. Nor will you find many that do. The genesys uses in a lot of cases one note of poly for each note played, in others, mind you I don't have actual figures in front of me, but the most layers I have found as presets played at once was 3 per note. George is right you can, I believe pile as many as 16 notes of poly on one key. We have presets that have many layers which switch in and out depending on the velocity of the said note. It honestly comes down to the sound programmer. I remember the first time I heard a Kurzweil, I believe it was 8 note poly, and it was amazing, the samples were thick and rich. I must say, and not because I am with Generalmusic, but the reason I decided to join Generalmusic, is because the Programmers that make the sounds and styles are very good musicians, and not just engineers. You mentioned Kurzweil, who I am a fan of, have owned several instruments over the years made by them, they too have musicians that happen to be engineers. I find that when setting up my instrument verse other brands (this being the genesys), I don't need to use a lot of texture to create the sound I am looking for. This means I don't need to use as much poly as other brands (this excludes Kurzweil). Yes, Kurzweil has some interesting ways to handle poly that no one else seems to have... and amazingly they have been doing this for many, many years. But hey, Ray Kurzweil is a very, very brilliant man.

Is Generalmusic listening.... Yes, I am here, and Chris has been for years. I don't know what to say, listen to the instrument, play the darn thing, you will come to the same conclusion that I have, you really don't need any more poly for a big fat sound. I still look back to the days that guys like Keith Emerson, Rick Wakeman, Herrbie Hancock were playing on instruments with 1 note poly and making amazing music with them.

To sum it up, I think texture and thickness of the sound to create what you are looking for is more important than my poly is bigger than yours... Also, you seem to be pretty hip to the poly, as you may or may not be aware, some manufactures don't count poly fairly.

I honestly would love to have a simple way to measure up, but there isn't. I guess it is in the ear of the beholder.

Take Care,


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Paul Davis
Generalmusic
Generalmusic.US

Yamaha advertises the Motif ES as having "True" Polyphony. Although not an Arranger it does have some Arranger type features on it. And the Motif ES has 128 note Polyphony. So the Motif ES according to Yamaha has 128 note "True" Polyphony. I am not sure it is allocated the same way as Kurzweil's is though. But I would think 'true is true' (the same) whether Yamaha or Kurzweil.

Best regards,
Mike