Let's face it. The one ingredient that is a must for making good music is talent. By definition, talent is something that one either has or doesn't have. No amount of practice is going aquire it for you and no amount of encourgment by family and friends is going t bestow it upon you. And another thing; it takes a certain amount of talent to recognize talent (in other people) when you hear it. Not having talent carries with it the burden of not only not realizing that you suck, but how badly you suck.

If you feel a need to encourage people like this, then encourage them to do one of two things, depending on whether they're amateur or pro.

Amateur - encourage them not to embarrass themselves in front of their friends.

Pro - encourage them to find another way of making a living; they're giving talented, well trained professional musicians a bad name. Do a reverse, turn amateur.

I have to wonder if we aren't doing a disservice to this untalented lot by encouraging them to strive for goals they can never achieve and feeding their delusions that they'r better than they are.

I already know that I'll come under fire for this, BUT, if you compliment someone on a performance that is truly putrid, I have to question whether YOU know the difference between good and bad music. I'm not talking about subjectivity here, I'm talking about performances that most of the known world would collecively agree was bad, bad, bad.

We should all know what's coming as soon as we hear "I did this in one take", or "there might be a few mistakes", etc., etc. That's a clue to me that they already know it sucks. If that's the case, take the time to put something out there that you think is good and leave off the excuses.

Lastly, as someone pointed out, if you post music to a board full of musicians (real or imagined), expect it to be critiqued, sometimes by someone who knows what they're talking about and doesn't feel the need to hand out "warm fuzzies" just for the hell of it. That being the case, I would have to say by way of advice, "If you can't stand the heat.......".


Of course, I could be wrong about all of the above.

chas

IF you're wrong about all of the above, then we'll both be wrong together. I almost never post about any performances. And if I do, it's usually because it's quite good, or it's good enough that my posting might help make a future performance even better, or maybe to comment on the sound of the keyboard only and not a word about the performance.

What a crock of crap......nuff said.
Havn't we been thru the just be nice routine many times here .....no matter what its always the Im better then you/My Kb is better then yours trip sheeeeesh does it ever stop?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-21-2007).]

Well, another well thought out, reasoned reply. No suprise there.

Chas,

I think you're correct on about 90% of what you say. But here at the SZ, maybe a little caution needs to be sprinkled in.

Many "one take" recordings are put out there, just for fun. I've put a few out there myself and they are one-takes, but mainly because I don't want people to think I'm dubbing stuff into the recording. If I'm going to make a real recording, I want stereo, mult-takes, edits, extra musicians.
Some of us only have limited recording resources and/or ability (me!). One take, with mistakes is the result. My one-take may have been 20 run-thru's, but hitting the RECORD button causes all kinds of gremlins to appear.
I agree that we should know better than to post something we think might get flamed, but in response to such a post I would be "guarded" as opposed to brutally honest.

The SZ is a special place and STRANGE things happen here on a daily basis. Why, because we like it that way.

What I have noticed on SZ....the real players never respond negatively to anyone's songs...Maybe they don't have an EGO problem..that needs to be up lifted by downgraded another persons song..

I'm a lurker and an infrequent poster here at SZ. Sometimes I just bust at some of the comments and the egos. Chas I'm one of those who don't have a lot of talent. I took many years of lessons but I knew in my early 20s I should earn a living doing another kind of work, not music. As far as I'm concerned I'd have to go on welfare if I had to depend on music to earn my keep. I don't post demos, but I don't think you do either. Please post something so that everyone can hear your talent. I'm sure you must have lots of it based on your comments.

Or better yet, when you're playing in one of the big cities on tour or even in small club let us know maybe we can come to hear your talent.

By the way your definition of talent is not a definition, you may believe it to be fact but since your in the mood to bust people's hump.........
Webster's defines talent as 1.a special natural ability or aptitude 2.a capacity for achievement or success.

As to Rory aka FAEbGBD. I know you've to the talent I've heard your work and absolutely love the bossa version you posted sometime ago of Don Gibson's "Oh, Lonesone Me."



[This message has been edited by Pacesetter (edited 09-21-2007).]

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quote:
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Originally posted by Dnj:
What a crock of crap......nuff said.
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Well, another well thought out, reasoned reply. No suprise there.


See what I mean, this IS the SZ mentality. I love it. and a BIG LOL!

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 09-21-2007).]

Really? I thought I summed it up pretty good!

Everybody...
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.
...hide!

Rory and Chas...I'm siding with you. You guys nailed the issue. Ask Rory, Nigel or Tony Mads if I have the cred to comment.

Russ

Russ sorry friend you may be right but I judge by MY OWN ears not hear say.

People post music for different reasons, but in almost all cases it's because they're looking for feedback. Beleiving that they are better than they actually are, it can be quite traumatic to get less than rave reviews for what you thought was a "killer" rendition.

One reason people tend to be "generous" in their critiques is that in the event that they post a tune, they assume that others will be equally generous with them. I mean, why make yourself a target, right?

Not posting is a matter of choice, just like posting. Each carries it's risks (like your not-so-veiled sarcasm towards me). As I sit here, I'm trying to recall Siskell or Ebert's acting credentials....ummm, can't think of any. Oh well.

Although I do enjoy playing before a live audience, age and arthritis have made that more difficult (and therefore, less fun) and since I have no financial incentive to do it, I do it sparingly. I did, however, play two venues at the recent National Black Arts Festival here in Atlanta, one of the largest events of this kind, and from now thruout the year, I'll be playing sporadically at the Club 290, THE premier jazz club in the Atlanta area. PM me if you're in the Atlanta area, although somehow, I don't picture you as a jazz kind of guy.

Peace,

chas

BTW, how is Webster's definition of talent in conflict with what I said?

Chas, surely you know...no one can PM you...You have never listed your email address, or website..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 09-21-2007).]

Fran, I don't maintain a website (not a good idea if you're in witness protection ). I actually thought my email was in my profile but I guess not. Just as well given the history of email abuse by members of the Zone (I'm thinking Scott and Squeak). However, post when you're going to be in the Atlanta area and I will PM YOU. In fact, I would enjoy hosting you in our home and showing you around our lovely little town. We can weep together over the sad state of the Eagles.

chas

Chas, don't you live near Sandy Plains Park?

The Tudor house , off of Route 92?

3rd house from the Culdesac..Very nice picturesque grounds behind your home..


BTW: I plan to be in your area, the second week of November..

Also, I seen Benny Cintioli a few days ago..I told him you asked about him..


[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 09-21-2007).]

Well, Fran, that's the kind of "attempted" invasion of privacy and public exposure that demonstrates an immaturity that belies your years. For the record, my house backs up to a lake with private dock, so if your "research" on zillow or google earth or whatever doesn't show that, you've got the wrong house. However, your efforts certainly lend credibility to Scott's allegations. Pitiful, pitiful, pitiful.

chas

PS: I didn't see the the second part of your message, you must have been editing it while I was posting. I hope Bennie is well, health-wise. Hope he remembers me, it's been years. He knows that I'm a pilot and plane owner, that may jog his memory (that and the thousands I've spent in that hole-in-the-wall). You're still welcome to visit but man, clean up your act.

Chas, I would certainly say your reply is an eloquent one and nice to see you have a more gentlemenly side to you. Sorry to hear that arthritis is effecting you, that has got to be devastating for any musician.

It's hard to judge a book by it's cover, I'm a jazz afficionado. Gerri Allen one of my favorites will be coming to Atlanta in October, hope you get to see her play.

On the talent comment "Yes one has it or doesn't have it" but that is not it's definition. Look it up in your dictionary. My thought there is since we were getting so critical about things I'd jump on the band wagon. All the best to you, keep on playing

We were chatting with Bennie Tuesday at the store I needed some gear.....but when we mentioned you he looked puzzled?

Synthzone Reality Check for ALL:

I'm willing to bet that most EVERYONE here (myself included) is NOT a 'big time' pro musician. If that were the case, we'd certainly have NO TIME available to waste gossiping & bickering here. Hey, do you guys see Tony Bennett, Diana Krall, Michael Buble, or Peter Cincotti posting here?

Realizing some people here seem to resent the fact that I minored in music in college or have had formal music lessons . . . so what? Lots of people 'majored' in music and what are they doing now? I simply love music, performing (via singing & playing the arranger keyboard) and bringing pleasure to audiences. The fact that I'm able to do what I love on a local level (SF Bay area) and have it pay bills is mere icing on the cake. My involvement with music (whether performing, teaching, or consulting) is my life's passion, irrespective of money, education level, or talent. I have no pretense or illusions otherwise, and merely post my music here to share my joy of arranger keyboard music making. That said, I don't depend on responses to my posted music for ego boosting, as it's the feedback from my live audience and local pro musicians & teachers that I rely on for that.

Music's a lifelong journey of discovery & growth. No matter where each of us happens to be on that path, I hope we can still come together (as arranger keyboard enthusiasts) and share both our music & knowledge.

Scott

You mean like this?



(sorry...just tryin' out my new filter)

-mike

We went to Hawaii in 1992. By my estimate, Benny must be 80+ and I have not seen him in @ 20 years. In fact, for all the years that I frequented his store (as a customer, not a personal friend), I'm not sure he ever knew (or cared) what my full name was. If you truly know Benny, you know that this is true. Every musician (of my era, anyway) in the Philly area remembers Benny; that doesn't mean that Benny remembers them. What exactly are you trying to say, Donnie? That I never existed? that I was never a part of the Philly music scene? I think the more likely thing is that we travelled in (very) different circles.

What exactly is it you want to know, Donny (and by extention, Fran)? Obviously, for my family's privacy, I don't want my personal information (like the location of my home) scattered across the internet, but if you have any questions about my professional life, past or present, I'll be happy to answer any reasonable questions.

The statements I made represent my opinions about posting tunes on this board. If you choose to do it, then be prepared to be critiqued. If your stuff is good, lots of people will tell you. If it sucks, don't be suprised or angry if someone tells you that. I didn't mention anyone specifically, but if you or one of your friends feels as though they "resemble that remark", what can I say.

chas

Chas, so quick with the tongue when you think someone is in your face

Invasion of privacy....come on!!

Public information that anyone can get...I didn't post your telephone number, address or even your immediate area....I thought I would get a civil answer since I mentioned I would be in your area...

Maybe Bennie didn't recall you because you aren't a accordion player.. ..or Italian..

I know he knew Jerry T. and another half dozen accordion players we mentioned from the area..

Let me know if I should look you up ..if my plans work out...

Fran, I want you to know that I am sincere when I say that my home is always open to fellow musicians (with the exception of drunks and addicts). You're even invited to stay over if you like (we are a non-smoking house but there are several exterior decks and a nice pavillion out on the dock). My wife's a lousy cook (I've never had the heart to tell her that) but there are some really great restuarants in the area, including the one in our country club.

Keep me informed. My studio is full of great toys. If you like the scat voices on the G70, you'll go nuts over the ones on the VP-550. Plus, you can "trash" the Tyros2 and PA1x pro up close and personal.

chas

Chas i dont know if you were really bored today or if you were just looking to mix things up on the forum but i have to say i respectfully disagree with much of what you say in this thread. Most of the demos on this forum are done to illustrate an aspect of the instrument that we play and not to show off our performance skills or talent. It takes courage to post anything on his forum because of this ongoing animosity between supposed adult musicians amateur or pro. I stand up and sing before over 500 people every week in my home church as i will tommrrow, i play for my church choir of over 40 members, i write and perform for small groups of aspiring singers and musicians locally and yet i still have not plucked up the courage to post one single demo of my instrument despite my good intentions . Why ?????? its simply because of the unhelpful, sarcastic and downright meaness of some of the contributors to this forum. It honestly pains my soul to see what grown men do to each other on this forum each week and increasingly on almost every other posting. I rarely comment on a demo here but when i do i try to be constructive and give due consideration to the guy that had the balls to post ! I want to see more people posting and sharing music and ways to bring out the best in the instruments we have. Just because i have the talent to spot weaknesses and tear people to shreds does not mean that i should. And that seems to be the prevailing talent on this forum recently !!What kind of talent is that anyway ???? Anyone can tear people down, create an atmosphere of spite and hurtfulness. Talent is natural ability. Unfortunately some people seem to have an abundance of talent for hurting and provoking hurt. I am not looking for another battle that ends in more hurt and anger and grudge making.

I just want to be part of a forum that supports users of great instruments like the arrangers we own and helps us play better, be more creative and be more productive. Cant you please stand with me chas DNJ,Scotty and anyone else and commit our talents in doing this ????

The thing is, if you are really posting to demonstrate some aspect or another of your arranger's operation, well, primarily you need to at least have the skills to play a song correctly (few timing glitches, relatively correct melody and chords unless deliberate substitutions), before whatever aspect of the arranger you are trying to show off doesn't get hidden behind an appalling performance that masks your point completely.

The other part of this thing we are seeing is that, the more one posts about one's own competence, steadiness of pro work, and sets oneself up to be the 'king' or 'expert', the more fair it is that one's work can be critiqued at that level.

If you can dish out criticism, you should be able to take it...

In my opinion music reaches its highest level when it is shared.

Talent plays well while others others criticize.

Technical skill does not always produce the best music the heart does.

Cousin Ken.

I'm bored every day. That has nothing to do with my expressing an opinion that you don't agree with (as is your right).



If I stood up and sang before 500 people in my church, there wouldn't be 10 people there the following week . But that's not really a problem because I know I can't sing and so therefore will not be doing that. Besides, if we pooled the congregations of every Unitarian/Universalist chuch in a 500 mile radius, we still couldn't get 500 people. I guess liberal religions that are anti-war, pro choice, pro gay rights, pro seperation of church and state, pro gun control, etc., etc., just don't attract much of a following down here in the great state of Gawwwga. However, most of the people in my immediate area are coporate transplants from all over America.

Man, I wish I could be spiritually and philosophically involved with my chuch but musically involved with one of those great Black southern gospel choirs. I love the music.

I have to learn not to digress.

chas

Let's take a look at what most of SZoners are: pros. At least that's what they say. Now, I find it very hard NOT to agree with Chas. If one posts a song and the first thing he says is that it was just something he threw together and to ignore the mistakes and all...well, then the reader (listener) has been warned that the quality isn't something to write home about. Not exactly how to sell a song or demo in my opinion. And it gets me to think: if THAT is good enough to share with pros then I really wonder what the audience has to listen to. JMHO

Taike

I was performing at the SD state fair a few weeks ago. During my off time I would check out some of the other stages. One small stage had a guy up their singing Karaoke of old country and 50's music. The guy was close to being in the right key, and nowhere near being on time. Had to wait until the words showed up on the screen I guess, which took awhile to register in his brain and come out his mouth. And this was at the state fair. Wonder if nobody ever told him he sucked; and rather was always encouraging and supportive of his absolute zero talent?

And I should add, his was a scheduled performance; printed in the handout schedules so everybody knew what was going on where. It wasn't a spontaneous event with lots of people coming up to sing; this was his show, advertised. And it was absolutely pitiful to listen to.

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 09-21-2007).]

Where's that vocal version of Ave Marie that someone posts yearly? That should make everyone who performs publicly (singing) feel better about their talent level.

My mistake; I think the song is O Holy Night.

Your missing the point completely. Negative comments actually provoke more negative responses and what happens is a complete hijack of a music forum into a personality attacking , malicious and bad spirited forum. In almost every other post there is a dig at another musician, sometimes from musicians that dont even post their own music for it to be held under the spotlight themselves.

What i am saying is that if pro's want to put their music up on this board and amateurs alike, your own ears will tell you who is the real pro and amateur whatever the poster states. If you dont like the music then dont listen to it, dont participate in the thread, leave it the hell alone. If the poster has allusions of grandeur leave them to it.Music is not like the emperors new clothes. You hear what you hear and you either like it or dont.It doesnt matter how pro someone states they are or how much they get paid for doing what they do. If they get paid for putting out rubbish then at least give them credit for that talent !!!

But by making positive and constructive comments it encourages people to post their music, not just the original poster but everyone else. It makes people feel like they are not entering a talent contest, there is no need for any Simon cowles like behaviour here. If someone posts a song that completely slaughters the true rendition thank them for posting and leave it at that. The kind of pressure that people are under if they dare to contribute musically to this forum is appalling. If you paid money to come on the forum to listen to the music then critiscise all you like but i am certain that if even 10% of the forum members were to start contributing their music you would see how exciting the forum would become. Ideas would be exchanged. We all might learn a trick or two.... over the last few months all i have learned is how childish and down right mean spirited people can be. I am starting to come to the reluctant conclusion that this is not the place for me to be.

Spalding, while I applaud your quest for forum nirvana, in real life it's not going to happen. Haven't the years proven that to you yet? That's not to say there's no place for mutual respect, but your advice sounds more suited to a group of 7 year olds at summer camp, where the need to bolster an awkward kid's self-esteem overides his ability to hit or catch a ball.

But we are NOT kids. Perhaps things are different in the UK, but here in America, if Roseanne Barr chooses to sing the National Anthem at a ballgame on national TV, she's going to hear about it; if Miss Teen South Carolina sounds like an idiot in front of a national audience, she's going to hear about it. We critisize our President when he does a lousy job; heck, in Philly, we've been known to boo Santa Claus. May sound cruel but it may keep a few guys like Rory's karaoke singer from slipping through the cracks.

Do you think it will improve the forum if you threaten to leave every time someone posts something you don't agree with? What about the fact that at least half of the responders DID agree? Don't their opinions count?

My original post didn't name names. I merely posed the question, "if a performance is bad, should we lie about it or tell the truth". I admit that is was prompted by the negative responses to some other member's negative critique of a performance. As to your following statement, in my opinion, it just ain't so.




I don't think anybody believes that.

Peace, I really hope you don't leave on my account 'cause I (and many others) am always going to have an opinion and it may not always be in lockstep with yours.

chas

'but your advice sounds more suited to a group of 7 year olds at summer camp'

.....I couldnt have put it better !


I think you will have seen enough of my posts to know that i am not so sensitive about peoples opposing opinions that i will leave because of them. And i dont get hot under the collar easilly. I will leave because the forum has nothing musically to offer me and hasnt for the longest time. I have heard several visiters come and say how entertaining they find the fights on this forum. It says something about us when people come here to watch us fight....

If i wanted to argue all the time i would get married !

Anyway best of luck.

I nolonger want to be part of this.

Who cares, just put a SMILEY face on anythng you say ......then it's ok!!

SO SCREW IT
bebop

I have it