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#203523 - 07/10/03 03:16 PM Are 98 Mb for sounds stored in 48 Mb via compression in Tyros?
Artaher Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/01
Posts: 143
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Clif Anderson, speaking about PA80, refers 32 Mb for sounds in PA, and said:

QUOTE: "32 Mb still leaves them far behind the Tyros' 96MB (well, maybe not, since the Tyros' 96MB is probably stored in 48MB via compression.)"

It is something new to me. I was thinking when Yamaha or other say 96 Mb for sounds, is exactly 96 Mb, not 96 Mb compressed in 48 Mb.

So, there is something not clear about Mb for sounds, if not all manufacturers count Mb at same way (for ex. some real Mb, some compressed Mb).

Are 98 Mb for sounds stored in 48 Mb via compression in Tyros, as Clif ask? And what about other (Technics, Roland...)?
Any opinion about that?

Cheers

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#203524 - 07/10/03 04:19 PM Re: Are 98 Mb for sounds stored in 48 Mb via compression in Tyros?
George Kaye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/24/99
Posts: 3293
Loc: Reseda, California USA
When I talk to product managers from Roland, Yamaha, etc. I have been told that the use of data compression is very common. It is a way to get more sampling out of a smaller area. It's the same idea as when Roland came out with the VS880 digital recorder. With data compression you can have more recording time then without because when the recorder see's a word like mississippi song, the next time mississippi is used again it might only record it as "is" and that will be enough to tell the computer inside it is the word mississippi. I think this is much like compressed sampling is doing although I'm not possitive. I'll try to get a better answer for you from my sources at the keyboard companies.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
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#203525 - 07/10/03 06:31 PM Re: Are 98 Mb for sounds stored in 48 Mb via compression in Tyros?
Clif Anderson Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/00
Posts: 532
The Motif ES Manual has a specifications page that says something like 175MB Wave Rom (when converted to 16-bit linear format). The phrase in parenthesis suggests that the the sounds occupy 175MB when uncompressed, but that less than that in the Motif ES. I don't have a Tyros manual handy, but someone should check the specifications page and see if the same language is present.

I believe the compression reduces the precision used to encode loud sounds since the human ear is less sensitive to differences in loud sounds than it is to differences in soft sounds.

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#203526 - 07/10/03 06:37 PM Re: Are 98 Mb for sounds stored in 48 Mb via compression in Tyros?
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 8611
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Clif, Roland has the same format, 32Mb converted to 16 bit linear, yields 64Mb
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#203527 - 07/10/03 08:22 PM Re: Are 98 Mb for sounds stored in 48 Mb via compression in Tyros?
Clif Anderson Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/00
Posts: 532
Thanks, Fran. I guess that applies to the SRX boards. I recall the JV boards had 8MB holding 16MB of sounds. In any case, I have no complaint regarding Roland's sound quality. Can anyone check a Tyros manual?

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#203528 - 07/11/03 01:25 AM Re: Are 98 Mb for sounds stored in 48 Mb via compression in Tyros?
MacAllcock Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 1121
Loc: Preston, Lancashire, England
I think all manufacturers use lossless compression of some form for waveform storage.
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#203529 - 07/11/03 05:49 AM Re: Are 98 Mb for sounds stored in 48 Mb via compression in Tyros?
Graham UK Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 01/20/01
Posts: 1771
Loc: Lincolnshire UK
Whilst you are talking about memory. It appears the Tyros has only 3mb of user memory for User Styles. User Reg's. User MusicDataBase. User Songs (midifiles). although you can use it all for Styles, this is still a small amount of memory considering the low price of memory...possibly Flash memory is more expensive???.

Graham UK

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#203530 - 07/11/03 06:08 AM Re: Are 98 Mb for sounds stored in 48 Mb via compression in Tyros?
Artaher Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/01
Posts: 143
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Hi
As George say, probably all manufacturers compress its Mb for souds. No problem about it.

My question was more in other direction.
We usually khink that
"more Mb for sounds = more quality of sounds"

So, a kb with 16 Mb would have better sounds than comparable kn with only 8 Mb (being numer of sounds similar).

But, if manufacturers compress its Mb for sounds at different rates of compression (and not declare them), comparations become more difficult.

Probably, the best way would be manufacturers make explicit both "theorical" Mb for sounds and "actual" Mb for sounds after compression.

A recent example may be PSR2100. I played it a little, and compared with PSR2000. Yes, new 2100 has a few new sounds, but all the rest ones are similar and sound similar to PSR2000. Yamaha say psr2100 has double Mb for sounds than PSR2000. Well, I suppose it is true, but honestly, my ears don't listen so much difference at all. Perhaps differents compression rates...

But the problem is more evident comparing different manufacturers, because probably each one compress Mb in a more similar way than if we made comparison with other manufacturers.

So, question would be to know if compression uses and rates are different in different manufacturers. If "yes", 32 Roland Mb would be comparable to 32 Yamaha Mb. If not, it is a nightmare.

Thinking about it, I remember someone said here that ways to counting polyphony aren't similar between different manufacturers (because layer sounds, etc). Perhaps, it is something similar.

Cheers

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#203531 - 07/11/03 07:17 AM Re: Are 98 Mb for sounds stored in 48 Mb via compression in Tyros?
Douglas Dean Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/02
Posts: 554
Loc: Prospect Heights IL USA
Kind of like two manufactures? One makes a super great sounding set of speakers, high quality, built to last with great features. The other makes fairly good sounding speakers, average quality and some features but not the latest technology. Now they both need a warehouse to store their stuff. One has a warehouse made of solid brick, has enough room for their product and does the job of storing everything. The other one has a warehouse not quite as large not made of brick but cement block and aluminum siding but because of more efficient use of space can store their wares just fine. Now here comes Joe Blow and his buddy. Both need new speakers. Joe Blow gets the specks on both warehouses, studies them and discuses them with others of like mind. Finally Joe Blow decides which specks he likes the best. The warehouse that has the specks he deems the best is the warehouse he buys his speakers from. Joeís buddy could care less about the warehouse and specks, but listens to each set of speakers, examines them and makes his purchase in that manner. Which one are you? Of course there are those who donít know how to read specks and/or donít have the foggiest on what the writers of them read into them for your bucks. On the other hand we do need something to talk about.

Grandpa Doug
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#203532 - 07/15/03 01:21 AM Re: Are 98 Mb for sounds stored in 48 Mb via compression in Tyros?
MacAllcock Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 1121
Loc: Preston, Lancashire, England
For some reason the factor "2:1" came into my head. Once you try to compress sound data by more than this amount, the compression starts to impact upon sound quality.

Clearly the overall sound of a "sample based" keyboard depends on a number of factors: the original samples (quality / length), the compression method, the internal programming of the keyboard, applied effects, etc etc etc.

I always find it interesting (and a good indicator of basic quality) to listen to sounds as single voices with all effects turned off.
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John Allcock

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