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#200854 - 02/09/04 06:24 AM Re: Hey ....let's repackage this keyboard ......
rattley Offline
Member

Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 837
Loc: Punta Gorda Florida USA
Hello.............I think this is the price of evolving technology. If you want an electronic instrument as soon as it's released you are going to pay full price. If the instrument's a sucess and it goes into increased production the price goes down as they sell more. Yamaha knows exactly what it's doing coming out with the PSR3000. They will sell 25 times as many of them than their higher priced Tyros............and THEY are the ones laughing all the way to the bank. The Tyros is fantastic, but I never thought it was worth 3 times what I paid for my PSR2000. I can't wait until the PSR3000 is out. I may even pay full price!!

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#200855 - 02/09/04 07:28 AM Re: Hey ....let's repackage this keyboard ......
Tomcat Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 178
Loc: Ft Collins Colorado, USA
I had a MoES6 for almost two weeks and then decided that I wasn't going to fight that awful OS so I took it back and got a Tyros instead. I wound up paying $2395 for it and am happy with that price.

I now have a Pa80 and a Tyros (along with a Trinity V3 and a Wavestation EX) and see NO reason to buy a new keyboard any time soon, if ever. I too am getting interested in using softsynths so I got a copy of Giga Studio and after loading it all in and starting to run it, it put up a screen saying that I didn't have a GSIF compatible sound card! It turns out that it won't run with my Extigy sound card so now I have to get an Echo Audio Indigo IO pcmcia cardbus card ($180) to go with my laptop. However, I will have to wait for a while before I have enough money to afford that since I just got the Tyros and have to get that and my taxes paid for before I can spend anymore on "toys" for myself.

It seems to come down to "never ending spending" LOL!

Tom

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Bigger is not always better
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#200856 - 02/09/04 08:44 AM Re: Hey ....let's repackage this keyboard ......
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
Perhaps the 9000 Pro is in a class by itself because of the additional options ( 76 keys, plug in expansion, sampling to name a few ) that aren't likely to be seen on other Yamaha arrangers again any time soon.

Then again sampling on a keyboard, whether it is an arranger or rompler is no big deal. I have freeware Vst and standalone samplers that are easier and more intuitive to use than the sampling functions of the ES. Also, the plug ins Yamaha has put out are very good, but there are far too few, when compared vs what Roland and Korg makes available. The plug ins don't always integrate all that well with the ES either, although from what I've seen here, it's probably worse with the 9000.

Still, I'd pick up a 9000 pro if the price was right. I agree with Jim and Terry, and think it may continue to command a top dollar resale value.

In the end, unless the Fantom X blows me away ( and it might ) I'll probably keep the ES because the soundset is magnificent and I can stumble my way around the OS, though not always comfortably. What may make the difference for me is if the 'X' has at least an equal soundset, a decent pattern funcion ,and better arp capabilities than the Es with user arps. I know the original didn't have user arps but did the "s"? I know the OS is better to navigate in the Fantom series. If it comes out soon enough, and I can still get top dollar value for the ES, then maybe .. just maybe.

Roland does get high marks from me for the V synth. If I was into spending the big bucks on a new analog modeled synth, the 'V' would be it. I'd have been very disappointed had I bought the Moog Voyager ( it was a consideration ), and then tried the 'V' afterward.

Instead though, I'm going with the Arturia Moog and the CSV80 vst's ( for a combined price of about 400 USd ), and I couldn't be happier. I'm going to add the RGC z3ta, which has some sounds I never dreamed of in an analog modeled synth. Software is the way for me for now, because I can spend "top dollar" ( which is usually in the 100-300 range ) to add the sounds I want, without having to spend and inordinate amount on a new board.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-09-2004).]
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#200857 - 02/09/04 04:43 PM Re: Hey ....let's repackage this keyboard ......
tom moon Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/99
Posts: 148
Loc: Haddonfield, NJ, USA
in Roland's defense, every iteration of the Fantom has been a clear step up. I agree the timing is bad, but after yrs playing a yamaha arranger (9kpro) and waiting for yammy to build a logical replacement, I find the fantom-s, which I got for 1275, to be a great keyboard. the sounds are really strong, the expansion is nice, and it's possible to use the pads for drums/rhythm loops (which are easy to sample in and then edit) in an almost arranger-like way. I'm more inclined to work with Roland going forward, if just because it's clear they're thinking about ease-of-use in the OS and trying to sincerely better an already good product. can't wait to try the fantomX!

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#200858 - 02/09/04 05:51 PM Re: Hey ....let's repackage this keyboard ......
trtjazz Offline
Member

Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 2683
AJ
I'm not sure how many arps the new X will have but the S had only 128 (I think I recall) plus 128 users. The big kicker though was the ease of making new ones or taking the existing ones and tweaking them. The S arps patterns were graphically visible and easily tweakable, much the same as on the Triton Rack.

When I posed that Q to bad mister as to whether or not there was a way to see them graphically or not, the reply I got was "why so you can steal them?" My answer was "if you mean like one can "steal" the voices and make them into user voices, then yes."

So I'm hoping the Fantom X has more arps, because the Mo has it beat, at least in #'s of arps, but in ease of redoing them, the Fantom wins.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html
_________________________
jam on,
Terry
http://www.artisans-world.com/

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#200859 - 02/09/04 06:30 PM Re: Hey ....let's repackage this keyboard ......
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
Thanks for the info Terry. Yes, the ES has many arps, and some good ones. That's a big plus. Ease of editing, and the just fact that Fantom now allows user arps is another consideration though.

Quality is more important to me vs quantity. As I said, the Mo has some very good arps, but I have to go through the step of recording and saving each to a midi file if I want to edit the presets. I prefer to use an external sequencer, so more steps... Not particularly intuitive is it ?

Worse yet is trying to use the sampling function. I'd love to take some of those stunning Moog Modular /SV80 sounds and add them to the Motif soundset, to have available for live work. The Es, even with the AN150 plug in, can't closely imitate some of the sounds in those two Vsti's. I was able to add samples of one of the Moog patches and it sounds excellent played through the ES, but the time and effort it takes to do it just isn't worth the hassle.. not for me anyway. It would be a whole lot simpler to just bring along a laptop with a good soundcard and the appropriate software / softsynths lloaded in.

Yep, those Motifator guys are a different breed. Heaven help the poster who questions or offers constructive criticism for their "perfect" ( not ) machine....

One other feature that's important to me, if not a "must have", in any potential replacement for the ES, is the ability to use a breathe controller.

Tom,

Roland fell to the bottom of the pile for me with their recent offerings vs what the other major players have recently put out there. That changed instantly the day I tried the V synth out. I haven't been very inspired by Roland's "variphrase" technology either, until I saw it's application on the 'V'. Based on the demo's, and what I did like about the Fantom S, I think the Fantom 'X' may also be very much to my liking. That said, in the spirit of the original topic, I'd probably still be a little annoyed had I bought the 'S' a few months ago, and it was already being replaced. It's almost as if the 'S' was a failed experiment, doomed by Motif ES and TS II. Maybe that's totally inaccurate, but still how it looks and feels to me.


AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-09-2004).]
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AJ

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#200860 - 02/10/04 05:15 AM Re: Hey ....let's repackage this keyboard ......
trtjazz Offline
Member

Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 2683
AJ
To the best of my knowledge and memory, The Fantom did not have a breath controller. I bought the one for the ES and just like so many other things Mo, can't get the hang of it.

You're dead on about the sampler as well. After about 2 dozen tries and 1 what I would call success (got lucky I think) I gave up on the Mo sampler as well. To edit the wav file in it is a "yeah right." The slice and dice function is a "huh?"

I'm really pretty disappointed overall, because I got off to a flying start with it then hit the Mo o/s brick wall. To me it's 99% too many sub menus to wade through to find something and non consistent logic as to where to find things.

A perfect example to me is to turn the arp send switch on. Where and why they put it where they did instead of on the arp page I do not get. Same goes for the sort direct....why on earth is taht on a different sub menu than the arp page.

Another huge thing for me is that the sounds do not have a natural sustain/decay. On the Tyros, if I play a note with the sustain pedal depressed it has a natural decay, with the Mo, the note stays at the same volume/dynamics until the pedal is released and then just cuts off abruptly. Too much tweaking and has to be done for every voice to counteract this.

Sorry for having taken this thread and turned it into a rag on the Mo thread, but it's all good info for all who may be considering one.
Terry
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 02-10-2004).]
_________________________
jam on,
Terry
http://www.artisans-world.com/

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