It's true, when working as a OMB, there certainly are convenience features that make the gig easier and more manageable, but......one thing that I have observed over the years in general and on this board specifically; the more accomplished the player, the less the whining and complaining about features like chord sequencers, and mp3 playback, and midifile/arranger style sync, etc., etc. ect.
In all the years I've been involved in music, I don't ever recall a great B3 player complaining about a B3 not having a transpose button (and I've met a lot of the great ones). Can you imagine Herbie Hancock asking for chord sequencer? The answer, my friend, is blowing in the woodshed. Spend that two hours a day you spend posting philosopy, psycho-babble, and what-if scenarios, in front of your keyboard (any keyboard) practicing and I gaurantee that you will eventually find that the music is far more important than the keyboards feature set. Ummmm, wonder how come the piano is still around essentially unchanged for the last several hundred years (and still fairly popular two). The truth is, the better you are, the less you need crutches. JMO.

chas

Wonderful observation, Chas, and I must say I do agree with you.

I can only hope that you are also following the advice you so freely give...

You must remember..."advice always sounds best to the one who gives it".

JMO,

Ian



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Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

Chas,

You are absolutely right. Cole Porter once said "The secret to being a good musician is practice. You must practice, practice and practice. And, when you think you have practiced enough, practice more!"

One of the things I've done for many years is try to learn a new song every week of the year. At the end of the year you will have learned 52 new songs. Keep in mind these are not really new songs, but songs that you have not performed during your normal routine. This type of diversity will keep you in front of the music keyboard and away from the PC's keyboard, which is a good thing.

Good luck,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

PRACTICE?? I don't need no stinkin' PRACTICE.
I need new stuff!
Seriously, I used to practice all the time. Now I'm too busy working to practice much. Must be a correlation there somewhere!
Rather than true practice, I now use slow times on the job for experimentation, with new songs, new sounds, different styles. I suppose that's practice too.
DonM

"Blowing in the woodshed"...what a GREAT line!

"Woodshedding...doghouse bass...trading fours...terms that bring out great memories. It's language that BeBop and others would relate to.

No wonder you're a vital part of "The Feeble Winds"!

Dead on, friend!


R.

"The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the woodshed".

Works for me!

R.

in a Down Beat issue featuring the immortal Art Tatum several years ago,they asked Jaki Byard what made Tatum so great. Jaki said: obviously he must practice a lot more than the rest of us.. In another interview in the same issue, they asked Tiny Grimes (correct me if i got the name wrong), Tatum's guitarist of many years, about the great one's practice routine. Grimes said: in all the years i have played with him and roomed with him I have never once known him to have practiced a note.

It is true that the music and the musicianship is more important than any equipment. Lee Trevino used to hustle bets playing against country club golfers using only a broomstick and a Coke bottle and beating them. But even
Trevino played top-ranked clubs on tour.

Practice is necessary, but it gets more results for some than others..some need only to practice early in their careers, some need only to practice short periods, and some practice endlessly and never really become great.

If that's all there is to say is practice..then we don't need
SZ..we do all use equipment and we read these posts to gain and give knowledge about equipment. My friend
Claudio Roditi is one of the most talented trumpet players ever. Yet- he has also been an equipment nut to the point
of obsession, spending hours every week hunting down different horns in cities he travels to, days discussing mouthpieces..he even installed a lathe in his apartment to work on mouthpieces. he never stops looking for the "perfect" one. and so it is with all of us here. why not?

It is not right to criticize anyone for seeking to improve the equipment they play on. i never was very good on the
alto sax, and always stuck to tenor and bari. about 5 years
ago i tried a new "Cannonball" brand alto a friend had on a gig, and i loved it.
I went out and bought that new brand, and within 6 months felt that i felt and sounded better than i ever had on tenor, and switched permanently to alto. never would have happened except for that particular equipment.

let's keep a sense of perspective about this issue..



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Miami Mo

Mo, few of us are blessed with Art Tatums natural gifts. However, I do agree with you on this statement....

"Practice is necessary, but it gets more results for some than others..some need only to practice early in their careers, some need only to practice short periods, and some practice endlessly and never really become great"

In fact, that's a very astute observation. As for myself, I play several hours each day but I would hardly call it disciplined practice. Probably more beneficial to things like muscle memory, etc. than anything else. Yeah, I guess (as someone pointed out) I should practice (no pun intended) what I preach. I'll start next Monday.

chas

chas, what you seem to be saying is that you agree with just the one thing I said that agrees with your premise in your posting...

so you disagree with all the rest of it?

Mo

Miami Mo..very well articulated. The right equipment is a necessity in this business. I guess the point, from my prospective, is, use equipment as a tool, not as a crutch.

One of the best live performances I ever saw was a TV performance recorded in Louisville on educational TV by Ray Brown (a mentor in my younger days), Victor Wooten and a legitemate upright player, Edgar Mayer. Three basses. They met 1/2 hour before the performance/filming...obviously, no practice time. It was fantastic. When I got to Louisville, Ray had just finished a lesson with a promising student...no charge. That's something he did in every city he visited, before every performance, until he passed on.

Obviously, depending on skill level, experience, the type of music and personal goals, the right amount of practice is a function of all of the above. I have noticed that probably because of the vast differences in individual instruments, reeds, mouthpieces, etc., the majority of players I've known who are obsessed with getting the right tone have been horn players.

Always enjoy your contributions,


Russ

Practice all you want ....that's not a guarantee you'll be good.....either you have it inside or not plain & simple....
the "GIFT" is from a higher source my friends....only certain people have it...look around you ....you'll know when you have it or see it

That arranger 'intro button' sure came in handy yesterday when I had to hit it 3 consecutives times while fumbling for my words. (no, not memorized yet

zuki

Folks, then there's the issue of maintaining your "chops". From experience, I can tell you that it takes considerable "woodshedding" to maintain upright bass chops, and I know the same is true for most, if not all horns. Maintaining chops requires lots of time on the instrument which is also a chance to learn new/different material.


R.

right on..but the gift is not always all-encompassing. it's the combination of the gift with the right instrument of expression..which is why Claudio is aways searching.
Charlie Parker could play tenor but he wasn't the same.
Eric Dolphy was a genius on all 3 of his axes..and Trane on 2..Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder are greats on vocals and keys, but Ray is just fair on sax..Stevie is an equal genius as a writer..but other great players are only ok, not great, when they go to a 2nd axe...and stories abound about those who started on one axe and had little success until they switched to the one that suited them better.
it's called "finding your voice". Toots Thielemans is a fine guitarist..but when he plays that harmonica--magic!

A great pianist on a Boesendorfer is miles beyond the same guy on a spinet. But a great pianist on a spinet is light years beyond a lousy pianist on a Boesendorfer. It's not totally one thing or another, because even the lousy pianist will sound better on a Boesendorfer.

some greats need no practice..just play, like Tatum. others are like Heifetz, who said: "if i don't practice one day, i can tell. If i don't practice 2 days, my wife can tell. if I don't practice 3 days, the audience can tell."



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Miami Mo

Mo, life isn't all black and white. Just because I HEARTILY agree with one thing doesn't mean that I automatically disagree with everything else. I just thought that particular statement was very relevant to the original post. And don't be so sensitive. Not EVERYone is going to agree with EVERYthing you say EVERY time you post. Better get used to it. Oh well, back to the wooodshed. After 50 years, this may finally be my year to become great.

chas

Mo, an impressive knowledge of good instruments and of the abilities of major players/performwers across the spectrum. Ever try to play the "gut bucket"? The Feeble Winds may be expanding the ensemble.

R.

and by the way, shouldn't we all be taking Gary's advice and moving away from this PC keyboard and toward that other keyboard.

chas

As my accordion teacher used to tell me "PRACTICE DOESN'T MAKE PERFECT, ONLY PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT"!!!
t.

you do realize the irony in that statement?
act for yourself, Chas...

and no. i don't want or expect everyone to agree with everything i say, heaven forbid, what fun would that be?..and where did you get that from anyway? just because i said that you made a point of agreeing with the one point which matched your original contention, and didn't address any of the rest of it?

seems you may be the touchy one, no? cause it ain't me..
but I don't really want to start anything with you, as it's not conflict I crave, just the stimulation of exchange of ideas. that generates its own heat, healthy disagreement you can learn from. don't need the personal put-down, pal. I don't think i got personal, did I? and why would i, since i don't know you--why do you presume to know me?

I like it here, you can leave and practice if you like. hope it helps.

I practiced clarinet/sax an hour a day from age 10 to 19 and was a dud. next time I got into music I was 35..and decided i would play, not practice. not ever. even when i'm alone i just play. When i just play, i wind up playing for hours..not an hour a day forcing myself to do it. i guess you could say it's another way to practice if you like.

I opened Jazzmania Loft in NYC 1975 and nobody who wasn't better than me was allowed to jam. a lot of guys got to jam at first, but after a couple years very few..
i was playing with some of the best, but I was nowhere near as good. that's how i liked it. Play with people better than you and you get better. i never got good practicing.
but that's just me, not saying others shouldn't practice.
i also tried different instruments, different brands of same
instruments. It didn't distract me, it helped me. equipment
made a difference. It can't replace talent, no..but it can
enable talent. i'm still into equipment..only now it's keys.

Hey, I took the easy way..and look, overnight..at the age of 59, LOL, i was playing with Jimmy Smith at the 1998 Clearwater Jazz Festival. Long time to wait, maybe if i practiced i would have got there sooner? ...errrr NOT..i would have burned out, i think, like before at age 19.

so i started the keys thing 7 years ago, and i'm taking the same route, and just playing, and loving it..and doing whatever else i love..like writing these little dispatches on SZ, and it's a harmelss little ego trip, sure..but I have you guys to zing me when i go too far..and i can zing with the best of them, too..but i try to zing the content, not the person.

oops, outta time..gotta pack for a rare Tuesday night solo
gig in a little Italian Restaurant. aint the clearwater jazz festival, but no matter to me, it's all just music...every gig
is a blessed event. consider the alternatives....ouch...


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Miami Mo

You can practice wrong chord changes all you want...you will just play the changes wrong and feel that you are better.....After this date I am no longer responsible for it's content..

Learning a new tune is not really practice...Practice to me is learning techniques...and I am already set in my ways to put up with that...now where did I put that accordion...........

Man, this kind of stuff really bothers me. Chas is a fellow I highly respect for his willingness to articulate and stand by his beliefs...beliefs regarding music, social issues and more. I get and appreciate all his refrences to music styles, players etc.

Mo shows an admirable understanding of the music business, music history, major players, instruments, etc.

Chas, Mo and I are mostly on the same page in those areas, and, on a bandstand, I have no doubt that we would "cook" and enjoy!

That's why what I believe mostly issues of semantics is so unnecessary. When you "just play" and you're at a certain level of proficiency, you're doing variations on lead lines, playing fifths...you're practising! Maby you're not learning new material, but you're still learning and improving. It just happens that way.

I really don't see a major disagreement...only nit picking.

Why?

Russ
Russ

Hey Russ, it's not me, it's him...that ol' meanie, Miami Mo. I hate him.

Hey Mo, I hope you realize I'm just kidding and trying to illustrate just how childish this kind of stuff sounds, especially coming from old men. I apologize for whatever I may have contributed to the negative turn the post may have taken.

chas

NOW EVERYONE KNOWS WHY FRAN ONLY KNOWS ONE TUNE--BUT HE KNOWS IT WELL!

Gary



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Travlin' Easy

If you play a sax, trumpet, trombone flute etc. and you want to be successful in a OMB, an excellent sequencer on an arranger is essential, especially if you really like the lively styles on a particular keyboard like I enjoy my i30 Big Band and Jazz styles with the longer loops.

I also enjoy playing the arranger live when I do vocals. If you try to do more than one or two tunes solo on a wind instrument you'll most likely bore people to death unless you can play like Dexter Gordon and Sonny Rollins.

Charley Parker used to practice 8 to 10 hours a day at times for several years. Don't think Art Tatum got there without ever practicing. Maybe he didn't practice after 10 or 20 years of experience. If you try to practice for more then an hour or two a day and try to compete with Charlie Parker’s practice time, you’ll probably have to do as much drugs as he did and you probably won’t live very long. Sad but true. I don’t ever expect to be as good as Charlie Parker.

If you don’t practice you’ll probably play every tune in the same key and perhaps the same 20 tunes over and over. If you are trying to play a wind instrument and you never practice you’ll probably never get a professional sound. You’ll always sound like a second year Jr. High sax player which is OK for a second year Jr. High school kid but not for someone who claims to be playing for 20 years and sounds like he‘s been playing for a few months.

Practice practice practice.

What i find interesting when these sorts of debates happen is that whatever anyone says is true from their experience but let me add my 5 pence worth

Everyone has a measure of the "gift" of music (not equally so however) but what makes great players stand out is undoubtedly the aplication of that gift with focused directed practise. Art Tatum did not just sit at a piano and play briliantly, he must have practised to get to a level where he could play well (there are lots of myths about great players and their natural abilities but to the most extent they are simply that ...myths). Practise could involve playing certain riffs over until you can play them fluently or listening to music until your ear becomes highly trained to chords and progressions and harmonic content. Some people will develope more quickly through practise than others but EVERYONE can improve their musicianship if they practise the areas they want to improve. I get just a tad upset when people say they wish they had the gift to play a musical instrument. If they can hear one note diferent from another and can keep time reasonably they have all the gift they need. The rest is down to application and focused learning and practise.

And thats the same for any talent or gift be it sport music,public speaking etc

[This message has been edited by Spalding1 (edited 03-06-2007).]

Anybody know how many forms and genres of music would die out if everybody was as good as Tatom or Getz or Montgomery or any other artists like that? I mean, would bands like ACDC even exist if all the musicians were supremely gifted on their instruments?

I guess, when you think about it, arranger users are using arrangers BECAUSE they don't have a great rhythm section to play with. So ANYTHING technical that interferes with the smooth, controllable aspect of arranger play is worth complaining about. Who knows? Perhaps there's an R&D guy actually READING this stuff, and maybe fixes a problem or two with the next OS or arranger.

I can certainly attest to having heard several 'greats' bitch royally at a rhythm section (or sidemen!) that didn't perform up to expected standards. We are just doing the same.

I've spent a lifetime trying to learn each and every inflection of a horn sound, and try to translate it to the keyboard and bender. I am a reasonable trombone player, and understand about phrasing, breathing, a host of horn techniques that can be translated to synth sounds and sax samples, to make for a realistic and authentic heart-felt solo. I've spent decades practicing to do the perfect pedal steel sound, or lead guitar scream. Practice does indeed, make perfect (or as close to it as technology allows).

UNFORTUNATELY.... my favorite arranger manufacturer dropped the ONE feature of their arranger line that allows me to utilize those skills..... the ability to have the arranger's chord sequencer repeat whatever whacked out (or standard!) changes I just came up with, and now go and use what I have practiced.

So, in fairness, I am not whining because of my lack of skill, but because I DO have it....!

Hold your hand(s) up if you consider yourself to be fully two-fisted players....... Doesn't it just make your blood boil to see that perfectly good left hand get hijacked to a job a monkey could do?!!

So, cgiles, while keeping your practice regimen up is always good advice, trying to get a manufacturer to re-introduce a feature that ALLOWS that practice to be used is also 'good advice'.

So correctomondo, Chas...you really hit the nail squarely on the head.

Ian




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Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

On the subject of practice

Someone once asked Pable Cassels the great cellists: Why at the age of 94 do you still practice? His reply was, " I'm starting to see some improvement".

practicing is only repeating what you already know..learning is the real enjoyment, for me, in music...so i play everyday,not practice, trying to learn that one new technique, or a new tune that i didn't know yesterday...
dennis

Extensive study and knowledge of chord theory is an attribute that arranger players are proud to have - I doubt you could teach that to a monkey.

zuki

yep, hold down a white key then add a black one below it, and there ya go a minor chord yippee!! certainly could not teach that to a monkey.....

There are some pretty smart monkeys out there....

But pat yourself on the back if you think that's enough. Most jazz guitarists and pianists are supposed to know that, AND turn a great solo in, too.

Stan Getz, Bird, Trane, you name 'em..... I defy you to find one solo they ever played that doesn't use slurs, scoops, bends, trills, cross-fingering, a myriad techniques to get more than just 'the note' and then 'the next note'. How they are joined up, how they transition from one to the other has as much to do with their individual styles as the notes themselves.

If you ever want to get away from pianism, and explore expressive horn lines, you HAVE to learn these techniques. There is nothing in the world more 'fake' than listening to a keyboard 'sax' solo that doesn't use the bender, or can only use it at times when there are no changes.

We'll discuss piano sample sets 'til the cows come home, but then play a decent sax sound so poorly that it will make any horn player in the house want to get up and leave. That's the thing about synthesis - every sound demands a different technique to make it realistic (at least imitative synthesis), you have to use the tools that make it work, or better to not play the sound at all.

Just as Yamaha have finally cracked the 'tongued/legato' problem, with the SA technology, they tie it to a system that doesn't allow (short of sequencing in advance) you to use the other thing that makes saxes (and so many other sounds) so expressive.

One step forward, one step back.....

Kind of throws the topic off topic, but couldn't pitch bend be set up on a controller pedal, a foot pedal, to get around the not having a chord sequencer feature?

correct diki, never heard a guitarist yet who could bend down...but you have people playing guitars on keyboards bending every which way..

I often use a pedal(FC7)for pitch bending on my PSR-3000...I'm sure other arrangers can be set up in a similar manner.

I first used this technique on the Yamaha Electone HS8...takes a bit of getting used to but it does the job admirably.

Aftertouch, on keyboards so equipped, can be used to replicate the modulation wheel.

Breath controllers are very handy and used to be on Yamaha synths as well as the Kurzweil K2500 and others.

Anatek used to make a little MIDI box for the Yamaha Breath controller, and I believe a company called MIDI Solutions makes one that is still available.

You can assign aftertouch, pitch bend, control change etc.

These devices add incredible expression to your playing, but they require the ability to ADAPT and a commitment to practice.

Ian


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Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

Well, if you start from a bent string, you can indeed bend down. Sometimes you bend the string before you pluck it, and then release the bend after. And of course, there is also the option of having the wammy bar floating trem on your guitar, in which case you can bend down quite easily. So, the arranger player could theoretically bend down without breaking laws of guitar, provided he knew how it could be done.

well, yes, but that was not what i meant..and i think you knew that

Sorry, miden, but he's right. The way on a guitar (AND a keyboard) to bend DOWN, THEN carry on the phrase is to start bent up, then return and continue. That's why aftertouch is useless as a bender - you can't bend up first without hitting the note.

Foot controller bending IS a viable option, but it fights with sustain, variation selection, and a host of other things your feet are usually doing (including possibly playing the bass line!), but in lieu of a chord sequencer, I would be happy if Roland offered it as an option (they don't).

But it also flies in the face of over 37 years (at least since the minimoog) of using your left hand to control pitch, timbre and vibrato. Talk about practicing! Why not ask a sax player to use a trumpet mouth piece, or a bassist to use a MIDI mandolin....

It kind of reminds me of Joe Zawinul's experiments with the 'reversed' keyboard on the Oberheims. Sure, you COULD learn to play it as fluently as the other direction, but why would you? Even Joe only used it as a gimmick, to break pre-concieved patterns of playing, not as a substitute for a normal keyboard.

Two (maybe three!) generations of synthesizer players have grown up with the concept of using their left hand to alter pitch and other non-keyboard aspects of sound. But here come a few to say, 'oh no... you can't use that skill on an arranger, you have more repetitive things to do with your left hand'.

I say rubbish! Roland already worked out how to get around the problem. The trouble was, so few arranger players (and let's be honest, while some are VERY skilled, they are the exception, not the rule in this 'hobbyist' form of music-making) recognized the opportunity this afforded them (if you lack the skill to utilize a feature, what value does it have?) that Roland's marketing division must have gone 'drop it, no-one uses it....'

Yep they definately would. I love bands like AC/DC. Between the song writing, Angus Young's blues rock guitar style and the lead vocal that band really knows how to make good rock music. That is why they have become so famous over the years. It's no accident. They have since the early 70s always been produced by George Young ( Angus's older brother) and Harry Vanda both from the 60s band The Easybeats ( "Friday On My Mind" ). There are many reasons they became so successful.

I also love Django Reinhardt ,Charlie Christian and Steely Dan as well so I do have a wide range of musical interests.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 03-07-2007).]

So on the Tyros 2 of course on some voices you stike the note hard and it gives you the glide. It starts low where it should and ends up on pitch.

Anyway, talking about practicing reminds me of something that is rarely mentioned.

I remember reading a book called Psycho-Cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz. In the book it mentioned a well known concert pianist who never praciticed. He was once asked after a brilliant performance how he could play so brilliantly and never practice. He said he just practiced in his head!

Another time I saw an interview with guitarist Herb Ellis I believe. He was asked about talent. His answer was talent is someting you can buy in a book called Psycho-Cybernetics.

Interesting to see this same book referenced twice. That book has mainly to do with relaxing mentally and physically and "seeing" yourself as you want to be. In a sense programing your mind. In these instances it was used to improve ones playing ability. This technique comes by a lot of different names today, but it all boils down to relax, visualize and let the mind take over.

I think in a sense we are all doing this with our playing. Acutally with everything we do. It defines who we are and what we can and can't do.

As an experiment on a few occasions I "saw" myself playing well beyond my ability. Felt is as if it had already happened. And forgot about it. A short time later, the exact thing I had "seen" happened. I was a bit stunned.

I have mentioned this to a few of my students. And have also seen a major rapid increase in ability.

Liberace is another who did this. It was mentioned in a book by Claude Bristol that it wasn't until he started to spend some time "seeing" himself successful that he became successful.

There is also a study that was done with 3 groups of people throwing freethrows. All were initially tested. Then one group practiced 1 hour a day physically throwing baskets. Another group ONLY pracitced in their minds for an hour a day. The third group was the control group and did not practice in any way.

The results were interesting. The group who actually practiced for an hour a day, improved 24%. The group that did not pracitce in any way did not improve. The group that practiced only in their minds improved 23%!!

So, I thought this would make for some interesting disscusion. Has anyone used this for music or anything else as far as that goes and how did it work.


Scott http://ScottLMusic.com

Well Scott, don't know if it works but I'm trying it. Right now I'm seeing myself in a brand new Porche convertible and not only that, my wife actually supports and encourages the purchase. No wait, it's not a purchase at all; my kids, who so far have managed to overlook our last fifteen birthdays, anniversaries, Mother's and Father's days, have suddenly pooled their resources and presented it to me as a gift.

I'll let you know how this turns out.

chas

I must agree with Scott about his reference to Max Maltz and Psycho Cybernetics.

I have used these procedures to great effect, both in my playing life, and also with my personal life in dealing with my addictions to alcohol and drugs(in conjunction with 12 step programs).

In a way it is similar to several other "programs" which emphasize "visualization" but it is far more effective and permanent.

Highly recommended.

Thanks for bringing it up, Scott.

Ian




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Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

Great response Nigel. I'm not a huge AC-DC fan per se, but I can certainly appreciate them and why their fans like them, and I like a lot of other so called " less complicated " music.

In spite of being a big fan of Jazz, Jazz Fusion, and Progresive Rock Groups like Rush, ELP, Pink Floyd ( especially Syd ) and Yes, I also found some humor and understanding for the attitudes of the early Punk / New Wave bands and later the early Alternative genres that largely considered the Prog music of the 70's to be " way over the top", too establishment, and self indulgent ".

The irony maybe is that lot of these groups later went on to cover some of this material, especially the Syd Barrett era stuff. Back in the late 70's and early 80's, while others in my musical circle were lamenting the "death" of the so called great music we were accustomed to, I tried to listen to some of the new stuff and found new music to enjoy as I saw true innovation in some of the stuff that groups like Elvis Costello, The Cars, The Police and Joe Jackson were doing. I still like them all to this day.

Maybe I'm old for it, but I can't help but like things like Eminem's "Lose Yourself" too. I can also appreciate that there is some effort needed and a good ear to make today's modern beats and sounds, even when there isn't a "real musician" playing when they are created. I can play a pretty fair drumkit, but I can't imagine trying to compete with some of these folks who are constantly trying to find the latest hot beats and samples.

I just looked back at the old video on Youtube of Pink Floyd playing on the "look Of The Week" and how Hans Keller, who interviewed them afterward, so deftly played the stodgy old critic. Roger Waters and Syd both replied quite eloquently to his critiques of them though. Today many see them as icons. I guess it's just life's lot..where we come from, what era, etc.. Many years later in an interview, when told that the young groups and fans found Floyd's stuff to be dated and self indulgent, Waters said he felt that's the way the young are supposed to look at it, as they want to identify with their own sounds and stuff, much like the early Floyd did. I guess maybe I don't quite fit that mold though.

I would say I'm happy with my keyboard skills, and the fact that I've become a fair drummer, but I still practice when I can and try to learn new things when I can as well. Life probably isn't long enough to learn all that I'd like to, but I'll keep plugging away while I'm here anyway. What I have learned to do is appreciate that everyone's techniques are going to be slightly ( or more ) different from anyone else's, much like you could put Jimmy Page and David Gilmour on the exact same guitar and have them play the same solo or progression, and probably easily hear the difference just based on style of play and physical attack alone. Both would likely sound great, yet different.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 03-07-2007).]

AC/DC ROCKS
My favorite Rock group of all time!
http://www.acdcrocks.com/



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-07-2007).]

For those sad, ignorant, pitiful folk who have never heard of AC/DC, just think of the greatest concert you have ever been to.

The Beatles, for instance. John, Paul, George, and Ringo are all on stage playing their #1 hit singles "Yellow Submarine" and "Kill the Innocent and Drink Their Blood".

Behind them, the majestic moose frolics alongside children from Nova Scotia. Everyone is happy except the moose, who would rather not frolic as it makes his neck look misshapen.

Now imagine a terribly loud noise that causes one's ears to bleed. Then terrorists leap out of a train and take the entire crowd to their country to work as slaves in the Goblin mines forever.

That train is AC/DC. All hail AC/DC!

Ian



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Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

My point wasn't so much that bands like AC-DC are not valid. What I was trying to get at is, that kind of music exists because you don't have to be an amazingly gifted and technical musician to make that kind of music. I'm not saying it wasn't original, or creative, only that it isn't particularly difficult music. So I was wondering if music like that only exists because there are musicians who are not as good as other musicians.

Maybe a better example would be someone like Green Day. Never once is there a guitar solo to speak of. So if all guitarists had amazing technical chops, then would Green Day's guitarist still enjoy playing power chords all day every day? Maybe less talented musicians is actually what makes certain genres of music. Would a pianist as skilled as Tatom ever make a new age CD?

Question: Have you ever tried playing anything by AC/DC?

Ian



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Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

Get more gigs. The more you play live the better your skill development is. You only practice the things that you are not familiar with, and the things that you don't know much or the new stuff. If you know how to walk then you don't need to practice walking because you are doing it everyday. Now, do you practice how to cry?

Answer: Yes I have.


Question to you, if you were teaching a guitar student, (which you wouldnt as a keyboard player probably) would you expect he'd find it easier starting on a Green Day song, or a Pat metheny song?

Acoustic or electric? 6 or 12 string?

Ian



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Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

From a Country viewpoint, Johnny Cash's unique sound and style wasn't done on purpose. It was because that's the ONLY thing the trio could play when they first started. They actually learned to play AFTER they had a couple of huge hits. Ironically, every time they strayed much from the bum-chick sound, they weren't as successful, at least until later years when John recorded with some of the hot rock stars of the 90's. And every note he ever sang was sharp, pitch-wise.
DonM

Folks, the GRERAT take-away from all this is an impressive collective demonstration of in depth knowledge of the history and accomplishments of major players across the music spectrum and over time.

Toots Thielmans, Ray Brown, Herb Ellis, Victor Wooten, Cole Porter, Cannonball, Jimmy Page, David Gilmore, Steely Dan, Yes, Django, Charlie Christian, Art Tatum,Stevie Wonder, Getz, Parker, Pat Metheny, Jimmy Smith and others mentioned here...the best ever in the field of music. An impressive demonstration of knowledge and appreciation of the business we're all devoted to and the major creators/innovators.

To Chas, Mo, AJ, Nigel, Diki, Zuki and others, YOU KNOW YOUR STUFF!

That common bond, to me, far superceeds the petty "games" that sometimes surfaces, due to bordom, ego...whatever.

Thanks for your comtributions.

Russ

Russ;
what's a nice guy like you doing in a den of iniquity like this?
Mo

Well, that solves ONE small problem (and they have a few of those in the Roland's too). Now tell me how you do the same bend quietly? Or slower (it's sampled)? And on ANY sound?

Next figure out how to either do it as a true 'bend' or the sampled fret-slide (which is what it is).... You begin to see the staggering range of different articulations real instruments can choose from. A bender can only do so much. For hammer-ons and offs, trills, tongued/legato phrases etc., a pitch strip (like Korg's, Kurzweils, old KX-5 strap-on controllers, etc.) are another choice.

But no sampled, velocity triggered 'effect' is going to allow for 'true' expression, just a poor imitation of it.

probably the best post ever posted on this forum.

Yes, I do understand the point you are making. Of course Green Day would be much easier for a beginner to accomplish.

I just don't think that technique is everything though it does open a lot more possibilities. On the other hand technical accomplishment doesn't automatically mean the music will always be better. Some of the music I like is incredibly complex then on the other hand some of my favorite music is very simplistic.

But I always think it pays to improve your technique whatever style of music you choose to play.

lets be clear here. There will always be technical limitations that a keyboard has when mimicking a real life instrument that is not a keyboard instrument and technologies like super articulation have gone a long way to helping us out but poor musicians with great technically advanced instruments still sound like poor musicians and this is a universal truth. The basic premise of the original thread is that a great musician even working within the limitations of the technology whatever that is through practise and ability can still make great music.

Sure we can ask the manufacturers to improve on their product and there is nothing wrong with that at all (so dont jump all over me!) but whats the point in that if the muscian sounds even with the latest improvement in the instrument like a poor player ? I have been on other forums and its the same problem. Master the instrument you have and it will surprise you how minor the limitations of your instrument become.

No argument there, spalding....

The problem comes when you have already mastered an instrument (or at least got good enough to fool real players!) and then the manufacturer DROPS the feature that makes that possible. It's not like I've been on a crusade for a feature not invented, yet.

On the G1000, using the bender extensively was a snap. It got dropped on the V-series (and I never knew, cause I never saw one in our area for all the years they were out). Apparently, no-one made sufficient fuss about it back then, and the policy stuck.

Unfortunately, the new G70 is SO more advanced sonically and functionally (except for this one feature!) I finally had to change. Luckily, Roland have been VERY good about listening to our requests for new and improved features (we're at OS3 already!) that I feel that the more noise I make about this feature, and the more I encourage others to make noise, too, once they learn the TRUE value of it (it isn't good JUST for the bender.... let's say you play a REAL sax, and want to jam with your arranger), the more likely it is to be re-introduced.

In the meantime, I practice every day, play out with as many different people as I can, jam on any style I can find, and listen to others play. It's not like I spend all day posting, you know.....

By the way, my arranger, when at home, sits directly in front of my monitor, with the mouse and keyboard on a shelf underneath it, so I COULD practice and post at the same time....!

FINALLY..... a good use for One Finger Chord mode

Although I do not.....how many people here are using one finger chords while playing?
I see this being used in many OMB acts around the area......are people getting lazy?

Donny ... is this a case of laziness, OR, have other musicians, i.e. horn players, drummers, bass players, who no longer have bands to play with, come to the realization that OMB is a good way to make some dough, but not having the piano training necessary, have found it easy to play an arranger using one note chords ??? .....
I can't imagine anyone with piano training using one note chords...
t.

Might I mention to the opposite extreme that it is possible that quite a few guitar players wish they could make their guitars sound like DonM when he's imitating a guitar on any keyboard that I've heard him improvise on. He's the best that I've heard doing guitar on a keyboard.

Yes it is possible ....& lazy aint even the word for half these so called musicians out there callingthemselves OMB's ....should be
OFB..."One Finger Band"