Does the Yamaha psr3000 have a decent b3 sound? Versus Tyros? If not, what options would you recommend for music that needs a good organ sound in gigs? Hardware or software.

Tyros have much more rotary efects ,and the sound is MUCH better than the 3000!
I tested it side by side and the Tyros sounds even beter than the Hamm Xk2 and the NI B4 (without a original leslie).Only the Hammond XK3 sounds much better.
Just my opinion.

Regards,
Arno

I'm a little fussy about B3 sounds on my keyboards (I was spoiled rotten when I owned a Hammond L100 and Leslie 122), and not happy with the organ sounds on the PSR550 (unless I play everything 8va). When I demoed the PSR1500/3000 the organs there seem to be quite acceptable IMO. There is all kinds of controls in the user organ section.
Starkeeper

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 10-18-2004).]

Roland VR-760 if you just need órgan's/piano's.

If you need an arranger I would wait on the new Roland as seems to have the same engine and drawbars as the vr 760.

Hey - Impuls

How do you get the Tyros Organ to sound like a B3? I've played around with the drawbars and settings and it just sounds like the Yamaha Electone Organs I used to sell.

I'd love to gat a Jimmy Smith/Jazz B3 sound with level C3 Chorus vibrato setting (no leslie) or a screaming rock organ but I mainly get cheesy or theatre organ sounds.

It looks like you have managed to create some really great registrations - please consider sharing them with us.

KFingers

?!?!?

That's saying a lot... anyone else agree?

The quickest and cheapest way to an almost spot on Hammond sound is almost definately the Native Instruments B4 software package...we can hark on forever about The Tyros this and the Tyros that...the Tyros is a great keyboard with a big price to match, making Hammond sounds is just one of its many aspects so it just gives you the equivilent of just the upper manual on a Hammond to compliment the other sounds whereas the NI B4 is totally dedicated to providing the 2 manuals and a pedal board as per a proper Hammond console which only a seasoned Hammond player would appreciate...if the the occasional Hammond sound is all thats required in your music then most modern keyboards will provide a passable imitation, if you want close to the real thing go for the B4...you can download the demo and read user reports here....
http://www.kvr-vst.com/get.php?mode=show&id=51

Rgds
larigot

If you MUST have an authentic sounding Hammond B3, just 'pick up' a re-conditioned unit & try moving it. The next best thing of course is Native Instrument's B4 software, but that means (at least for gigging purposes) bringing along & hooking up a fast laptop as well. The Yamha Tyros' Hammond B3 sound may not sound exactly like the real thing, but its certainly impressive to my ears, especially when you utilize CD-Soft's huge IMPRESSIVE Organ voice collection. Checkout the MP3 samples here:
http://www.cd-soft.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=45

Scott

The simple answer is the Roland Vk-8m Drawbar module:
http://www.rolandus.com/products/details.asp?catid=10&subcatid=42&prodid=VK%2D8M

The Tyros organs do NOT sound like a NI B4 NOR do they sound like the XK2. The VK-8m, on the other hand does and in my opinion playing live it surpasses many sample based and other lower quality Hammond Simulators. I did a study of all available products on the market and the VK8M, although it does not match a real Hammond or Leslie, is the next closest thing.

The VK8m features real drawbars, Tonewheel emulation, Vibrato, leslie, has the D-beam, controller, and is fully tweakable.

Plus it has buttons to trigger presets.

I play live with a Tyros and a Korg Triton Extreme, and for my personal taste, the VK8M blows them both away. I'd rather have an A-100 with a 122, but I'd rather gig with this baby any day.

Al

It is a matter of taste,But the Roland VK8M and the VR76 do not come even close to a Hammond,They sound great but they sound different.
I using at home the B4 with the Tyros and in my opinion after tweaking the Tyros drawbars (Rotary effect(16 type,s) and the EQ )you get a better result than the B4.
I also have the software from CD-soft and you wont believe youre ears.
On the other hand i played and listend to the New XK3 ,and that sounds like a B3 !
I am thinking to buy one .
The only thing i am missing on the Tyros are the real Drawbar sliders.
Btw on the VK8M you cant connect a footpedal for the Rotary speed,Strange?

Best Regards ,
Arno

Wow .... this is like a peacock festival! Feather's up boyse !

What I heard on the Yamaha's sounds like sinus-sound (WERSI). The 'drawbars' on my SD1 sound terrible!

Realize that real tonewheel Hammond organs sound special because of :

Polyphonic key-click with random volumes,

Monophonic percussion,

Each key has its 'own' harmonic distortion,

Each key has its 'own' hum-noise

The rotary speaker LESLIE effect is hard to simulate and (in my view) no current keyboard comes close!

The Scanner-vibrato is pretty complex because it is a mixture of phase- and frequency-modulation.

Every B3 has a specific sound.... the older the better ?

People who actualy know how a B3 sounds, know that Native Instruments B4 Tonewheel software DOES come very close to the real thing

I hope the new G70 sounds like B4 Tonewheels

Roel,
The Tyros have a lot of Rotor simulations,like i sad and you can make a real rough hammond sound with it,I use it on stage with both bands i play in,and they like the Hamm, sounds a lot.
Like i wrote ,the best hammond in a portable pakkage is the Hammond XK3.

Regards,
Arno

know that it can sound like a million+ possibilities. They also can be fooled by the right combination of tone and effect. I've heard a chordovox in a leslie that would make Groove Holmes turn his head.

There is no ONE sound that defines a B3 more than the leslie, itself. The key click and percussion etc ..... are all secondary to that doplar effect that whizzes the air around the room.

A B3 is as personal as the player on it, but there are many worthy contenders in the UNDER 410lb catagory that I just love.

I know this is just opinion but I don't think Roland does such a great job with their combo-organs/organ module...It all sounds too cheesy.

Also I listened to the demo's of the Hammond XK-3 and I wasn't impressed with them...But I think maybe it was just the demo's because so many people have been saying it sounds very close to the real thing. So I think the demo's are some kind of misinterpretation of what it really sounds like. If anyone knows where I can hear some GOOD sound clips of the XK3, please tell me I really want to purchase one soon but I wanna know I'll be happy with it.

Sorry didn't mean to take over this thread. But I'd say for organ sounds, go with Hammond, they seem to do the best job. I think they also have an organ module so you might look into that. NI B4 is awesome too. I use that for some of the recordings I do. I've found though that really to play an organ well, you need something that feels like an organ. Seems to make I difference to me.

The Clavia Nord Electro2 or Electro2 Rack is the answer.

[This message has been edited by Vquestor (edited 10-19-2004).]

Take a listen to Jimmy Smith - his style embodies that Hammond sound and for most of his stuff, he never uses the Leslie!

It's all about the Tonewheels!

Good point kbrkr !! (I agree)

I love Jimmy Smith, but I prefer the sound of the Leslie to that dry, Hammond sound. Again, it's Jimmy that makes it sing ..... he could shine on a DX7 .... which, BTW makes a darn good tone wheel sound. After all, it's sine wave technology ..... just creatd in a digital world. I've heard DX7s through a Leslie and you'd be blown away. The only tell-tale sign(sine?) is the lack of monophonic percussion. That's a trademark sound for sure.

Say what you want ....... there are MANY, many respectable substitutes that negate lugging around a 410 beast these days. Sure, there is a certain individuality to each old relic, but if you play it right, and you amplify it right ( Like Joey D does) you can wow any organ audience with today's newest technology and no one will be disappointed with the result.

Ah the mighty B3...still own one...still play one (it stays at a local country club).


It a love-hate relationship...

Russ

I'll never forget the first time I was in a music store and the demonstrator turned on the Leslie speaker and the sound was just thrown all around the room, circling my head, the walls, it was everywhere.

Then watching him emphasis a phrase by making the Leslie turn faster creating an orgasmic sinoidal dance.

I was blown away and that experience was one of the reasons I was determined to learn to play the keyboard.

Yup .... it's that "on/off" of the leslie speed that really adds life to the performance. You can just hold down a chord for 12 measures and it can come to life with the right emphasis!

Thats the truth.

I confess my ignorance about specific organ hammond playing techniques. Does somebody know this book?: http://www.berkleemusic.com/store/product?product_id=54810&category_id=3

-- José.

I was turned on to a band called Niacin just the other day. Check'm out. A drummer, a bassist and a keyboardist. And they're all great musicians. They base their sounds around the B3.... hence the name Niacin (vitamin b3).

Peace
Bob
<><

Now that's gotta be cool

gotta be a royal flush (a winning hand) or band in this case. - Scott

If your are a Hammond B3 Afficianado, check out my Jazz Piano teachers website which I designed for him last year. He is a Hammond B3 player and gigs with the beast. He uses a cut down version with a Leslie 122.
http://www.jeremybaum.com

One thing I really like to do when I'm playing the organ with our 122 at church is to unplug the the slow motors. This not only gives a nice brake effect but having the bass rotor's slow motor unplugged causes the drum to decelerate at a MUCH slower pace, giving it a nice drag effect. It really emphasizes the music

This thread is already more than a week old, but I think that you might find the following interesting:

for those who love the tonewheel sound and are especially interested in the playing technique, check out this demo-video: http://www.ke-musik.dk/ShowArticles.asp?Close=No&ID=1070

This demo is mostly done on the "new" B3 and the XK2 with the virtual tonewheels, but to my ears it all sounds very authentic! This proves also that the playing technique and the proper Leslie amplification make about 75% of the sound. I guess this organ player can even make an organ on a cheap keyboard sound great.

BTW: his name is Leon Kuypers and he just happens to be Dutch

Anyway, I hope the Hammond devotees among you enjoy this video.

------------------
Tom NL

Tom, a great link.. It brought back the days when I was a Hammond salesman[mid 60's]..His technic is the style I like ,and beleive it or not, I use to play a little like that ...then...

A lot of the tunes were the same songs I played back in that era..including My Favorite Valentine and There will never be another you....in the natural keys[right feel] Cm and Eb...and Secret Love in F...I picked out my favorite organ on the G1000[perc with leslie set on high]..and had a ball playing along..
The XB1 and KX2 sound good ,but nothing compared to the old guy[B3]..Then he really shined..

If the Hammond was and is so great...why couldn't I sell more in the 60's..I must have gotten all the hard sells...

Great keyboards, all of them. I have and love my VR760, which uses the VK8 organ sim engine. Check out the November issue of Keyboard Magazine for their latest B3 shoot out. Roland is highly rated.

www.keyboardonline.com

Not only does every old B-3 (and M-3's, for that matter) have their own qirks (that's personality), but leslie's are the same. You had to "age" one. Sound was a function of the age of the tubes,tightness of the belts, etc. As belts aged and stretched, players had to alter the timing of switch activation.

Dave, good to see someone else appreciates Richard "Groove" Holmes.


Those old guys are something to watch.

Notice how many touring groups and even youngsters on some of the late night shows (Letterman, Jimmy Kimmel, etc.) have a "Mighty B-3" on the bandstand.

Some of these youngsters are great players who know all the notes, but just don't hav that leslie activation timing of the long-time players.

Russ

That was a great link. I downloaded the 548kbps version. Does anyone know where you can purchase the new leslie 21 model? Or at least know how much they're selling for now?

Try this link http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=21821&Category=Keyboard_Amplifiers

Cassap, Thanks for the link, but I can't find the article. Where did you see it?

Al

The article is in the November issue. Looks like the online link only goes up thru the Oct. info.

And a damned fine organist he is too.

I saw him play a couple of years ago at the Dutch Keyboard and Organ Exhibiiton and I almost decided to give up playing...

It's a shame that it's not that easy to find out where he is playing.

Jerry
Amsterdam

Jerry,

Leon, a very nice guy (in dutch 'gewone vent'), often plays at my dealer near Zwolle :
Oostendorp Wezep. www.oostendorp-muziek.nl (during organ shows) You could call them?

As far as I know Leon teaches electronic organ at the Zwolle Conservatorium.

His music on Hammond.... wow !!



[This message has been edited by Roel (edited 11-03-2004).]

Uncle Dave will have the real thing on Friday...He wanted a B-3 so bad...he bought one...Now he needs a sucker to go pick it up...Anyone?

I agree with Impul's assesment of the Hammond XK-3 also. I had the privilege of actually playing the new XK-3 in person a couple weeks ago and I have to say it is an amazing instrument. It comes very close in my opinion to that famous B3 leslie effect.

If you want stupendous Organ and B3 sounds with a very convincing Leslie simulation and you don't want to lug around a real B3, then in my opinion you need not look elsewhere or further than the new Hammond XK-3. I picked the XK-3 up from its stand and although not light, it is any thing BUT heavy. It actually weighs less than the Motif ES7 from Yamaha.

The leslie simulation is breathtaking. As a comparison there was right above the XK-3 a Clavia Nord Electro 2. Running through the same Amp as the XK-3. The Nord Electro is good, don't get me wrong, plus it has other sounds in it besides Organ sounds. But the Hammond XK-3 had a fuller, rounder, richer, more vibrant sound than the Nord Electro did in my opinion. Plus the Leslie Sim was a lot better in my opinion on the XK-3 also.

I mean come on; Hammond wrote the book on the Leslie effect. The XK-3 is a Hammond FYI. >> In case it hasn't sunk in yet...

The best portable B3 emulator on the market right now is the Hammond XK-3 in my opinion. And when I say portable, I mean something under, oh... let's say, 480 lbs.

It really is THAT good btw...

OTOH, the Tyros is weak in comparison IMO. There are good Organ sounds on the Tyros but a great B3 there is not. The Leslie Sim on the Tyros just doesn't cut it for me which is a shame. You would think a $3,000 dollar Keyboard such as the Tyros would have a good and convincing B3 simulation on it. NOT!! Oh well... Maybe the Tyros II. Are you listening Yamaha??

Best regards,
Mike

Btw, here is some info on the XK-3 if you'd like to take a gander: New Hammond XK-3

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 11-03-2004).]

Does a stand come with the XK-3? I've been trying find this out and haven't gotten any answer on that yet. I've been seriously considering saving up for an XK-3, but I don't wanna order one then get and find out I needed to buy a stand too...

Ryan, I'm not sure there are any offers right now that include a Stand with the XK-3. The price of the XK-3 itself is excellent for an instrument of this caliber. The price of a Stand to rest it on is chicken feed when you think about it.

Here is a Stand that is recommended for the Hammond XK-3:



The Pinnacle KS20 Keyboard Stand is rugged, well built and double braced for sturdiness.

And for a mere pittance of $35 it can be yours.

Here is the link: Pinnacle KS20 Keyboard Stand

PS: If you buy the XK-3 and Stand from Music123 you won't have to pay any shipping charges either. Many other Web Music Retailers offer the same thing.

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 11-03-2004).]

Well it don't matter to me whether it comes with one or not, I just needed to make sure if I should buy one or not. I'm saving up enough to buy the full blown deal. The organ itself, the pedals, and the expression pedal, and it they sell it for the XK-3, a half-moon leslie switch (I heard they are either in the process of making it available or have already made it available). When you start getting up to $2900, whats another $35 right?

Actually.. Laurens Hammond the inventor of the Hammond organ hated the 'Leslie' speaker and did everything he could to stop it being fitted to his organs.

True. Fortunately for Hammond though - In 1980, the Hammond Corporation bought Electro Music which was Don Leslie's Company {the man who invented the Leslie Cabinet} and the Leslie name from CBS. Currently, Leslie remains part of Hammond under Hammond/Suzuki, USA.

Beyond that, Hammond was well aware of how Leslie Cabinets were a boon to the sales their Organs. People realized that a Hammond Organ sounded wonderful when hooked up to a Leslie Cabinet and when word got around people started buying more and more Hammond Organs. Over the years, Hammond engineers routinely checked out new Leslie Speaker models as they were introduced and the company was well aware of their impact on Hammond tone cabinet sales. Hammond never admitted it but after 1940, there never was a time when there were "no Leslie Speakers at the Hammond Organ Company." So there was constant interaction with the in's and out's of Leslie speakers by the Hammond Organ Company years ago. PS: I would guess the Hammond engineers intimately scrutinized the workings of Leslie speakers from the inside out, and were "thouroughly" aware of its technology and how they worked from an engineering perspective. Which helped immensely I would think when they finally acquired Don Leslie's Company, Electro Music in 1980.

In fact many Hammond people, some of them Management personnel, respected Don Leslie and didn't support the Hammond Organ Company's "Anti-Leslie" policy from years ago.

It has also been said that Laurens Hammond was musically tone deaf and the reason he rejected the 'Leslie Effect' in Don Leslie's speaker cabinets was his inability to appreciate and notice the improvements the Leslie rotary effect made in the sound of his Organs. If he really understood what most everyone else already knew, i.e. that the Leslie rotary effect provided an absolutely marvelous sound improvement to a Hammond Organ, he probably would have hired Don Leslie on the spot. But being tone deaf he allegedly couldn't "hear" the difference the Leslie's made so he rejected them and their maker Don Leslie. At least, so the story goes anyway.

Best regards,
Mike



[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 11-06-2004).]