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#190810 - 08/20/03 09:05 PM Frank- FLR2003 status?
Vquestor Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 554
Frank,
We haven't hear from you in quite a while.
I was wondering if you built your six-pack-
size computer yet, and how things are
working out?

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#190811 - 08/21/03 05:21 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Vquestor, things are still progressing along those lines. A relative of mine will be purchasing (at a very low price) one of my computers once she has enough money saved. Once that happens I will put together my shuttle version of a music computer.

In the meantime, I am one of the beta testers for Brainspawn's forte wrapper. It seems like a very good VST/DX instrument and effects wrapper. In addition, they will design a future version with Audio in, e.g., voice, etc. so that I could use VoiceMachine or DecaBuddy. If this happens then this will be the most slick and economical approach to a totally software based solution for arranger systems. Currently, I use Cubase SX (expensive) with Project5 Rewired (expensive). It works very well but it is not slick as forte would be with Audio In. VoiceMachine still does not work in real time - very large delay. Steinberg will correct this in a future update of Cubase SX. Apparently older versions of Cubasis do not have this problem.

Soundtrek seems to be very slow in coming out with a Windows XP compatible Jammer Live. Similarly, Seersystem's Reality is nowhere to be found for Windows XP. Oh well, I don't need them. LiveSynth is doing a fine job.

I just installed VRSound's 3D Pipes which emulate the Baylor University magnificent pipe organ. It sounds very good indeed. It consists of 46 presets for the 4 manuals and the pedals. The whole sample set is about 400 MB.

I have started to tweak the Tyros styles for use on my system. They sound like Yamaha, i.e., fairly good.

I am still very pleased with my system. It is efficient and effective - it is reliable, plays well and sounds excellent.

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#190812 - 08/21/03 08:21 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
Frank,
Can you explain, in layman's terms, why you require 2 sound cards to operate your FLR2003 keyboard?
Thanks
Starkeeper
_________________________
I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#190813 - 08/21/03 02:21 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Starkeeper, actually you don't need two soundcards if you can take the somewhat lower quality of an Audigy for both the accompaniment and the melody/lead voices. I needed the Audigy at first because there was no easy way to play styles with program changes. The soft synths are not very good at this. As a result, I used the Audigy for this and the M-Audio Audiophile for my lead/melody voices. It worked real good!!!

It is now about a year or so later and there are very good soft synths around that can accept program and effect changes from the style player, e.g., Project5 with LiveSynth Pro. I can rewire Project5 thru to Cubase SX launch Kontakt for my lead voices and DecaBuddy for my vocal harmonies. As a result, I really only need one soundcard. I have sold the M-Audio and purchased the Steinberg VSL2020. This soundcard is a step up from the Audiophile. Once I build my Shuttle Music Computer, I will likely go to one of the top RME soundcards.

In the meantime, I have kept my Audigy to serve as 2 Midi In/Output Ports as well as a mic input. The sound of the mic is sent thru to the VSL2020 for processing.

So the short and the long answer is you only need one soundcard. You can use the Audigy for most things including ASIO, WDM and GSIF drivers if you use the KX Project Drivers. You will find however that the so called professional cards give slightly better performance (Signal to Noise, dynamic range, frequency response, distortion, etc.).

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#190814 - 08/21/03 09:08 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Vquestor Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 554
Frank,glad to hear everything is progressing
smoothly.
What did you think of the other wrapper
I had recommended to you (along with Brainspawn Forte) called RT Player Pro?
I have been playing around with Brainspawn's
Solo and think it is excellent.
The only thing is that it does not work
with the Roland VSC DXi that comes with
Cakewalk, but will work with the HyperCanvas
DXi Demo. I hope their audio version, you described, becomes a reality soon.
BTW, doesn't Vsampler3 beta accept program
and bank changes like LiveSynth?

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#190815 - 08/22/03 05:21 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Vquestor, you are right that not all DXi or VSTi work with Brainspawn. It appears, among other things, any instrument or plugin specifically keyed to an application like Cubase or Cakewalk will not work in Brainspawn. My guess is that this is some form of copy protection. The good news is that there are enough around that will work with Brainspawn or any other wrapper.

I have not taken a close look at RT Player Pro as of yet.

VSampler 3 does accept program and effects changes but it continues to have problems finding the Yamaha Drum Kits in Bank 127 (16256). So far the only solution I know is to go into each style with a sequencer and change to the appropriate drum bank, i.e., from 16256 to Bank 127 (really the same thing). Once having done this VSampler works great. This is alot of work and as a result I will stay with LiveSynth Pro. LiveSynth Pro uses the Alive (Soundfaction) voice editor to change or edit any of the voices/instruments in the Wavetable. So far this seems to work well.

Vquestor, its about time that I acknowledged all your suggestions (Brainspawn, LiveSynthPro, etc.). I probably would not have stumbled on these without your help. In fact, this was the last step in my totally sofeware based arranger system, nemely the, flr2003. It works beautifully!!!

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 08-22-2003).]

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#190816 - 08/22/03 05:13 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Vquestor Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 554
Vquestor, its about time that I acknowledged all your suggestions (Brainspawn, LiveSynthPro, etc.). I probably would not have stumbled on these without your help. In fact, this was the last step in my totally sofeware based arranger system, nemely the, flr2003. It works beautifully!!!

Frank, you are much too kind (although it is
nice to be appreciated after all the countless searches and inquiries). But, by the same token, it is you, whom all of us have to thank, for your investment in all the time and money in making the flr2003 a reality. Believe me, I'm as happy as you are!!
BTW, it's too bad you already sold your
M-audio card because the "RT Player" is
supposed to be optimized for it's use.
Also, is Live-Styler still your program of choice or have you switched to OMB 5.0?

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#190817 - 08/22/03 05:51 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Vquestor, thanks for kind comments.

At the moment I still use Live - Styler as my first choice. It has an excellent user interface. You can tailor it to suit your needs, e.g., performance setups for styles and voices, etc. In addition, if I get a touch screen in future it is well suited for that approach (Refer Branda in Germany www.branda.de ). OMB has its pluses too. It plays the PSR2000, Tyros, etc. styles better, i.e., without modification for such things as OTS.

Finally, you might be right that I missed an opportunity with M-Audio and RT Player Pro. Oh well!!!

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#190818 - 08/28/03 10:33 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
Frank,
Can you explain some terminologies for me?
Is Live Synth Pro a standalone Software synthesizer? Why does it need to be used with Project 5? Project 5 is a soft synth workstation. You said you can "rewire Project 5 thru Cubase SX". Do you need Cubase SX, Project 5 and live synth pro all running plus "live - Styler" to get the arranger functionality?
Does Kontakt have some excellent organ sounds, or would I have to get NI B4 for that?
Starkeeper
_________________________
I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#190819 - 08/28/03 02:27 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Starkeeper, you ask some menacing questions.

First off, LiveSynth Pro is a DX instrument and needs a DX Wrapper like Project5 or Brainspawn. Given I also wish to use a Vocal Harmonizer like DecaBuddy or VoiceMachine, I need something like Cubase which allows you use these effects and to import your voice. The vocal harmonizers do not work in Cakewalk Sonar or Project5. Alternatively there is no DX to VST conversion software that I can find. So by Rewiring Project5 to Cubase SX I got everything I need (expensive and not very elegant - but it works well) Once Brainspawn comes out with Audio Inputs then I have it made. It imports both DXi and VSTi as well as effects.

If you have no need for a vocal harmonizer then you have the world as your oyster, e.g., Brainspawn, Project5, Console, etc. All these will load LiveSynth and Kontakt. Alternatively, you could use Cubase SX if you can find a good Soundfont VSTi, e.g., VSampler 3.0, etc. Best of all would be a Yamaha XG to GM style conversion, especially the drums. This would allow you a great deal of freedom to choose excellent wavetables such as Edirol's HQ Sound Canvas.

Kontakt comes with few samples of their B4. In addition, I use Sonic Implants B3 samples which are very good and relatively inexpensive. These samples include, slow and fast rotating speakers, stopped rotator and many drawbar settings. As you know I have the B4 also but often use the Sonic Implant samples. This facilitates setting up and loading 8 or so instruments into Kontakt to cover a given genre of music, e.g., jazz. These samples come in Giga Format and need to be converted to Kontakt. Kontakt does a good job converting these samples.

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#190820 - 08/28/03 02:39 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Starkeeper, I should have added that I like organ sounds/music. So I will often play the B4 by itself (upper & lower manual and bass pedals). I might on occasion add the drums with Live - Styler but that is it.

In general, because my melody/lead voices are all of very high quality, I will often only use the Live - Styler to add drums and bass. As they say less is more!!!

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#190821 - 08/28/03 09:58 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Vquestor Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 554
Frank,
Is Kontakt a higher sound quality sampler
than Vsampler3?(i.e.,why exactly are you using Kontakt instead of Vsampler?)

I am also curious if you had a chance to
try out RT Player Pro yet. I read that it
has VoiceMachine listed as a compatible plugin. Unfortunately, you have to buy
their hand controller to use the program,
and it is a VST host only, No DXi.

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#190822 - 08/29/03 05:21 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Vquestor, I have no scientific evidence on whether VSampler or Kontakt is of higher quality. I do know the 'big guys' do not use VSampler. They use Kontakt, GigaStudio, Halion, EXS, etc. Some of the biggest Sample developers and serious composers are using these samplers. Keep in mind that VSampler 3.0 has not been released yet. It is taking forever. If it has good disk streaming it may merit consideration.

For my money I would select Kontakt - for the most part it works as advertised and does a good job of importing other file formats, e.g., Giga, Soundfont, Halion, etc.

The reason I have not tried the RT Player is that it cannot handle DXi or DX effects. V-STack, Cubase SX and other Wrappers provide very good VST hosts. What I need (or would like) is a host that could handle VST, DX and Audio. If RT Player can handle Audio In and VoiceMachine then that is a significant improvement over other Wrappers such as V-Stack. If it can handle VoiceMachine then it is even better than Cubase SX - amazing!!! I am involved in a number of beta testing projects and just have not taken the time to test the RT Player - but I will.

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#190823 - 08/29/03 10:14 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
Phew! I don't need a vocal harmonizer. So, 1) I would need Brainspawn or Project 5, or console. (Wrapper) 2) Live Synth Pro (DX instrument). 3) Live styler. I then load my samples into Kontakt for the lead voices.
Does Live Synth Pro play XG voices?
Is there a more technical name for "wrapper"?
Kontakt needs to be loaded into a wrapper as well to work?
Starkeeper
_________________________
I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#190824 - 08/29/03 10:20 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
Frank, Your second post re: NI B4. NI B4 is a stand alone program (wrapper, Instrument, and samples combined). If you use "Live Styler" then you need a wrapper and Live Synth Pro, correct?
Since I have no experience with soft synths at all, it sounds complicated.
Starkeeper
_________________________
I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#190825 - 08/29/03 02:18 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Starkeeper, if you don't need a harmonizer then you can very economically build a software based arranger:

Live-Styler for Auto Accompaniment $30
LiveSynthPro & DXi Host/Wrapper $100
sYnerGiGs Wavetable $20
Soundfonts mostly free

So for around $150 (assuming you already have a computer and controller keyboard) you can have sound equivalent to the top end arranger keyboards. Amazing!!!

Now if you have an Audigy 1 or 2 Soundcard you don't need LiveSynth Pro. You just load the sYnerGiGS wavetable into your Audigy Soundcard and use Live - Styler and start playing. This would save a few bucks. In addition you could use the effects of the soundcard, e.g., reverbs, chorus, delays, etc.

If you want to take the next step then Kontakt would be a good choice (expensive). Kontakt can be operated as a standalone softsynth but you usually cannot have more than one application running on the same audio drivers. There is a way around this by operating LiveSynth on WDM and Kontakt on ASIO drivers for your soundcard.

Similarly, the B4 can be used as a standalone or DXi or VSTi. So if you were going to go the route of Kontakt, B4 and LiveSynth then the best approach would be to use a DXi Wrapper/Host, e.g., Brainspawn, Project5 (expensive) or Sonar (expensive), etc.

LiveSynth will play any soundfont wavetable. sYnerGiGS comes the closest to XG. If you have the energy you could build your own full XG Wavetable. I find sYnerGiGs sounds very good on most Yamaha styles and midis. I have made alternate wavetables using sYnerGiGS as my base and improved the pianos, strings, brass, bass, etc. The wavetable I now use for my accompaniment is up around 128 mb.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 08-29-2003).]

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#190826 - 09/01/03 02:30 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Vquestor Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 554
Frank,
Now that the software end of things is more or less operational, what are your thoughts as far as output structure from soundcard to
PA system?
I would recommend at least 4 outputs so that
each can be tweaked, on the fly, with a mixer(i.e,, one for bass, one for drums, one for melodic accompanient, and one for leads.)
I am particularly impressed by the M-audio
Firewire 410 since it has 8 outputs(1/4",
but unbalanced). Do you think the firewire
interface will have inferior performance
compared to a PCI audio interface?

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#190827 - 09/01/03 02:59 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Vquestor, now you are getting into areas I am not as familiar with. My Steinberg VSL2020 has the following:

S/PDIF
ADAT 2 IN/OUT
Coaxial S/PDIF
Analog 1 IN/OUT

In general, I will take a similar approach and try to keep everything software based including all the Analog In/Out mixing. As a result I will only need one Analog Out to my mixer. To make quick changes during live performances I would setup all my instruments, harmonizers, auto accompaniment, etc. in advance and switch them from my keyboard via channel changes, volume changes or style part changes. In addition, your soundcard comes with a mixer. Finally, I use a Yamaha volume pedal to vary the overall volume of my external Yamaha rackmounted mixer.

I agree, your approach would be better for live performances.

Firewire performs very well from what I have heard on other forums. Firewire works very well for fast Hard Drives (7200 rpm with 8 mb Cache). M-Audio produces high quality sound cards. So you should see very good performance indeed. My soundcard also uses unbalanced analog In/Out. While balanced would give you better shielding and performance, unbalanced will do very well.

Just curious, why would you go Firewire if you have PCI slot?

There are some advantages to running more than one soundcard. It gives you more opportunities to run standalone soft synths.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 09-01-2003).]

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#190828 - 09/01/03 08:01 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Vquestor Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 554
Frank, thanks for your valuable input.

I, of course, have a PCI slot on my desktop, but I was considering the firewire since I may someday have a laptop, and so thought it would be great to just invest in one interface for both(in addition to the
easy connectivity). The PCI is only if I decide to get a six-pack PC instead of laptop. So I just wanted to weigh the pluses and minuses of each.

From your comment about having advantages
for having more than one sound card, are
you implying that a single host with several
soft synth plug-ins using one soundcard is not recommended?

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#190829 - 09/02/03 05:07 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Vquestor, your approach to Firewire is good if you are thinking of using a LT some day.

In general, my preference is to use one host and load the soft synths and effects you need. It is clean, elegant and reliable. There is also less potential for conflict when you use only one soundcard.

I was just thinking if you ever wanted to use Kontakt and the B4 as a standalone together it would be easier with two soundcards. This allows you to use all the manuals and bass pedals of the B4 layered with other sounds from Kontakt. You can do the same thing in a single host but you have to bring up more instances of the B4. In any event, I agree with you 1 host & 1 sound card!!!

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#190830 - 09/03/03 11:36 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
oleg7 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 54
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Frank,I just saw that there is a new version of the Brainspawn's Forte 1.2 that supports native VST and VSTi.
http://www.brainspawn.com/

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#190831 - 09/04/03 04:59 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
oleg7, yes I was one of the beta testers for it. It will also load DXi and DX effects.

I believe in the next day or so version 1.3 with Audio In will be tested. I hope I can get this to work with Vocal Harmonizers.

Thank you

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#190832 - 09/04/03 10:28 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
oleg7 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 54
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Frank, which model of Forte do you recommend to use, Ensemble or Quartet ? The prices are $99 or $59. I think $99 is actually pretty expensive for a host.

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#190833 - 09/05/03 05:03 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
oleg7, quartet might be enough if you use it as follows:

1. Livesynth/Live - Styler - Accompaniment
2. Kontakt - Lead/Melody Voices
3. & 4. For other instances of VSTi or DXi

The effects do not require a separate instance. I assume this will be true in the future for Audio In & Vocal Harmonizers.

You would need the ensemble if you are into using many instances of synths. I will likely get the ensemble even if the quartet looks like it would be enough for my use. Oh well - I always over design!!!

I agree with you it is relatively expensive. It costs the same or more than V-Stack or RT Player Pro but it can do more for live performances, e.g., Scenes - midi/audio setups, etc. It costs very much less than Project5, but Project5 may work better and is supported by a larger company. Finally, there are the low cost/free hosts, e.g., Console, Chainer, etc. which may be good enough for general use.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 09-05-2003).]

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#190834 - 09/05/03 08:50 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Alex K Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/99
Posts: 731
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
Frank,

in his posts Jos Maas argues for the hardware XG synthesizer approach for playing accompaniments.

Are you able to achieve good performance (low latency) with the software-only synthesizers?

Thank you,

Alex
_________________________
Regards,
Alex

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#190835 - 09/05/03 09:25 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Alex K, I don't want to undermine what Jos is recommending and doing. We need people like him to continue to make software for our use. Also it is risky to assess what Jos' goals are. In reading his tread I get the distinct impression that he is designing systems for use by hobbyist or home users and not the professional (live & studio).

Older Yamaha soundcards use the 4 mb wavetables. While such wavetables are amazing for their size, the sound quality in terms of today's standard is very low. Latency of Yamaha's soft synths and soundcards are generally very high and not useful for live performance. Yamaha's SW1000XG soundcard (ASIO, WDM) may have overcome some of these problems with their recent drivers but in the past the best latency they could get is around 40 to 50 ms - not good enough!!!

Yes, I get excellent latency (2.9 ms) with software synths, heavy duty streaming from the Hard Disk and professional effects. You need to use the better or pro soundcards, good drivers and good soft synths (Kontakt, Halion, LiveSynth Pro, etc.). I know some find this kind of information hard to accept but it is true!!! The sound developers and serious composers use this equipment and software all the time for live and studio work. In fact, you will find that they will often LAN together one sequencer PC with 2 to 6 sampler PCs with no problems with latency or overall quality of sound. These people use the Vienna Symphonic Library and Eastwest Quantum Leap Orchestra ($3000, 68GB):
http://vsl.co.at/index?http://vsl.co.at/news/product_news.htm?cmsqflag=1
http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-155

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#190836 - 09/05/03 02:38 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
For those who may be interested, Cubase 2.0 has been released.
http://www.steinbergcanada.com/

Sonar 3.0 has been released.
http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/studio.asp

Obsolescence continues, new things happen and my pocket remains on empty!!!

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 09-05-2003).]

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#190837 - 09/12/03 08:06 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Vquestor Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 554
Frank,
I hope your beta testing is going well.
I was wondering if the following scheme would
allow playing of yamaha styles with a minimum
of tweaking:

OMB-->MidiYoke-->Forte-->HQ HyperCanvas, and
LiveSynth-->Custom soundfont with all Yamaha
drum kits ONLY.

I was thinking if you used Hypercanvas for
all style sounds except for drums, and
LiveSynth for all the drums (in Yamaha drum map format),then you would no longer have to
remap any style. Is this feasible?

[This message has been edited by Vquestor (edited 09-12-2003).]

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#190838 - 09/12/03 08:47 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Vquestor, you might be on to something here.

Keyboard->OMB->MYoke->forte->Hyper Canvas

OMB->MYoke->forte->LiveSynth (drums)

The problem I see is that you would somehow need to suppress the drum channels going to Hyper Canvas. In LiveSynth you could run only the XG Drums from sYnerGiGS. I am not certain whether OMB lets you use more then 1 output. Some programs like Cakewalk do.

forte is very powerful when it comes to midi and it may well allow you to suppress the channels of your choice going to specific synths. I just don't know this aspect well enough. I will ask the experts.

The beta testing is an up and down game. They just released a fix for some midi issues (stuck notes, etc.). However, some of my styles play out of tune - oh my!!!

I tried installing the RT Player Pro demo and got a message during installation that my time had run out. I will have to get into the registry and remove all reference to RT Player (assuming I can find them all) and try the installation again.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 09-12-2003).]

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#190839 - 09/12/03 11:00 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Vquestor Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 554
Good news Frank,
This may be easier than you think.
You can set OMB to output to Midi Yoke NT:1.
Next load Forte with HQ hypercanvas, and click the "Midi Configuration" tab, then
click the "Channels" tab. On the left column
deselect all Midi Yoke channels except #1.
On the right, click the "Disable All" button.
Now you will have to double click on the
to bring up a pull down menu from
which you will select the same midi channel
as the input. Do this for all channels, except for channel 10 which you will leave
as "disable".
You can now load LiveSynth into Forte, and if
you are using your full Synergi SF, you
do the same thing except disable all channels
except for channel 10. Of course, if you
have customized a drums only SF, this is not
necessary.
So, it appears that Forte can control the
Midi channel selection of the loaded plugins,
and so, you only need OMB to use one
MIDI Yoke channel output.
Please let us know if this works well.

[This message has been edited by Vquestor (edited 09-12-2003).]

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#190840 - 09/13/03 06:18 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Vquestor, this should work!!!

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#190841 - 09/13/03 08:23 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Vquestor Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 554
I hope we can finally see the light at
the end of the tunnel for the FLR 2003.

But I have some terrible news!!
I just read that Live Synth has gone under.
I couldn't find either website www.livesynth.com www.liveupdate.com

Do you know anything about this?
I hope they are/will be acquired by someone
who will continue support.

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#190842 - 09/14/03 05:32 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Vquestor, you are right, LiveSynth has been off line for a while. I also noted a de-emphasis of LiveSynth on Cakewalk's site. Hopefully, it get's a new life including as a VST instrument. Oh well!!!

If worse came to worse, we could always translate the drums from 16256 to 127 and use VSampler 3.0. SeerMusic may provide another alternative in the future - Windows XP & Yamaha XG compatibility. There could be other alternatives in the future - who knows!!!

If I wasn't so old and if the job wasn't so boring I would just go ahead and convert the Yamaha styles to GM format. This opens up many more alternatives. In the meantime I will continue to use LiveSynth Pro or your alternative LiveSynth XG Drums and the rest on Hyper Canvas or other GM Wavetable.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 09-14-2003).]

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#190843 - 09/14/03 09:43 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Vquestor, I have just been notified that forte beta version 1.3 with audio in will be available for testing today. So I should be able to test DecaBuddy and VoicMachine.

If it works, I will move out of Cubase SX, Project5, etc. (expensive) to a simpler world of forte (elegant & affordable). Life is on the verge of getting better. We'll find out soon!!!

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#190844 - 09/14/03 02:47 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Vquestor Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 554
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
Vquestor, I have just been notified that forte beta version 1.3 with audio in will be available for testing today. So I should be able to test DecaBuddy and VoicMachine.

If it works, I will move out of Cubase SX, Project5, etc. (expensive) to a simpler world of forte (elegant & affordable). Life is on the verge of getting better. We'll find out soon!!!


I surely hope it works!!! I will keep my
fingers crossed. Fortunately, it seems like they have a very good and customer friendly group at Brainspawn, so I'm sure they can work out any problems(hopefully).

One side note. I agree with you that
it is a lot of work to change XG styles to
GM, and this SHOULD NOT BE necessary for
your "flr software XG arranger" since it should play PSR styles with no tweaking whatsoever.
If worse came to worst, I think a custom XG
SF(all instruments including drums) in the now defunct LiveSynth, will do the trick.
That is also the beauty of Forte, since LiveSynth is a DXi, and Forte hosts both
VSTi and DXi.

Good Luck and GO FORTE!!

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#190845 - 09/15/03 06:01 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
I did my first round of testing of the forte Ensemble beta version 1.3. It worked remarkably well with only the WDM drivers implemented. ASIO Drivers will be implemented soon. Everthing operated properly:

Live - Styler
LiveSynth Pro
Kontakt
DecaBuddy

I set my latency at 2.9 ms and the computer handled it very well. I had to back off on the number of instances of high quality reverbs (Ambience) I used - not a big sacrifice.

This is definitely an elegant and affordable solution compared to my previous music operating system (Cubase $700 & Project5 $400).

Things just keep getting better!!!

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#190846 - 09/16/03 04:12 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
elle Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/00
Posts: 95
Hi Frank,

I think your queste has come to a point where you (and others) might want to setup should setup a "Open Software Aranger Group" of some kind, which could approach the core vendors for your framework (the likes of Brainspawn and livestyler/OMB) and beyond the mere software interoperability of these modules pressure for a higher level (hardware simulation?) interface so the FLR can also be used in live situation.

jus a thought

elle

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#190847 - 09/16/03 04:50 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
elle, thanks very much for your kind comments.

With some additional developments, Brainspawn's forte will be ready for prime time, i.e., live performances. forte has powerful midi and scene changes implemented where you can make total system changes from your keyboard, e.g., using program & control changes, etc. You can also program your computer keyboard to make 'scene' changes along with other changes - hot keys. In addition, I could use a touch screen to improve the control surface. There are various companies working on control surfaces, e.g., M-Audio, etc. The partnership between Roland and Cakewalk could be helpful. But you are right, more needs to be coordinated with the hardware side. This will only happen if there is a market opportunity.

While the control surface is not as good as a regular arranger keyboard the other benefits such as, high quality effects and instruments outweigh the drawbacks. Plus you can use the instruments of your choice or synths of your choice without adding weight to your system.

I believe a viable software based system has just arrived!!!

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 09-16-2003).]

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#190848 - 09/16/03 07:36 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
Frank,
Would I be able to use my Yamaha PSR550 as a controller keyboard? Is it possible to use the existing buttons for program changes, fills, etc.?
Does you controller keyboard have expression pedal input (so that you can change the volume of the lead voices without affecting the accompaniment)?
How will the fact that LiveSynth Pro might be bankrupt effect us in the future? Just to confirm, LiveSynth Pro can play XG voices without any conversions?
Starkeeper
_________________________
I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#190849 - 09/16/03 07:46 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
Frank,
What would be the bare bones minimum Laptop system I would need to run the flr2003 (no voice harmony software required)?
Starkeeper
_________________________
I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#190850 - 09/16/03 09:39 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Starkeeper, you are making me sweat! This feels like a test. If I don't get it right I fail. Oh well I will give it a try.

Yes, you can use your PSR550 as a controller keyboard.

Yes, you can send program changes from your PSR 550 provided you have midi implemented on it. I think you do.

No, you can not send changes in fills, variations, endings or Intros using the buttons on your PSR550. Here is where a longer keyboard (76 Note) is better you can program the bottom octave to do that.

Yes, you can attach expression/volume pedals to my Roland A37 (Roland EV-5 or FV-300L expression pedal). Yes, you can control your lead/melody voices with such pedals. All these attached devices and other program and control changes can be stored in 128 Flash ROM locations. These are then there each time you turn it on and you don't need batteries.

Yes, you are right it is not a good thing that something seems to have happen to LiveSynth Pro. Hopefully someone else will pick up on it or others are going to jump in and take up the slack. If this does not happen then we are into selecting something like VSampler 3.0 and adjusting the drum banks from 16256 to 127 for each style. It is not the end of the world. I could do it but I would rather watch grass grow or the weather channel. SeerMusic may present another alternative in 6 months or so. There are other alternatives just they don't work as well (Bismark BS-16, Audio Compositor, Orion Sampler, Sample Farm ( www.soundburst.com ), etc.). In addition, one could also use Music Companion (good), Evolution Sound Studio ProII (good but few styles), Jammer Live (if those guys ever get one out for Windows Xp). So there are alternatives - not to worry!!!

The barebones minimum for a Laptop - hmmm?

If you want to use the voices of the PSR550 then all you need is:

Live-Styler or OMB & a midi cable ($30)

If you want to generate a new sound different from the PSR550 and you are happy with the sound quality of the LT sound chip then you will need:

Host/Wrapper ($100)
LiveSynth Pro ($70) or alternative
sYnerGiGs Wavetable ($20)
Live - Styler ($30)

The next step would see significant improvements in sound quality, namely:

In addition, to the above you would need something like Kontakt and premium voices (expensive), a Firewire Hard Drive and Soundcard (expensive).

So Starkeeper there you have it. If you need more information just let me know and I will see if I can find it.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 09-16-2003).]

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#190851 - 09/16/03 10:01 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
Frank,
Didn't mean to make you sweat, and no it's not a test. Just extremly interested, as I am thinking of taking the softsynth route.
Starkeeper
_________________________
I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#190852 - 09/16/03 10:17 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Starkeeper, all those who have taken the soft synth route are happy. There are some one-time costs (money & sweat) but it works. The world is your palette. You can go with a Datsun (Do they still make them?), a Cadillac or anything in between and at your own speed.

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#190853 - 09/16/03 01:13 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
They don't call them Datsun's anymore (I use to own a Datsun 510), they're Nissan's now. I do have to take that route. Sigh! The question I had before was, "what is the minimum Laptop requirement" for a soft synth arranger. By that I mean cpu speed. Would a Pentium II 466 LT be able to handle the load? (NI B4 says it requires a 266)
Starkeeper
_________________________
I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#190854 - 09/16/03 01:29 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Starkeeper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1704
Loc: Toronto
Frank,
I know, I ask a lot of dumb questions, it's not that I'm dumb, I'm ignorant (lack of knowledge). You are the man with knowledge. When you throw terms around like: Brainspawn forte wrapper, DXi, Cubase Sx, Project5, Live Synth Pro, VSL2020, RME soundcards, ASIO, WDM, GSIF drivers, Kontakt, Synergigs Wavetable. I'm thinking, what is he talking about.
What's Synergigs Wavetable?
Starkeeper
_________________________
I play Roland EM20 and Yamaha PSR550

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#190855 - 09/16/03 02:13 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Starkeeper, I guess I am not reading your questions properly.

If you are going to play the sounds on your PSR using Live-Styler or OMB almost any LT will do.

If you are going to play Live-Styler with LiveSynth Pro using the sYnerGIGS Wavetable then any Pentium will do with 256MB plus RAM (Windows XP - 128 MB + Wavetable - 50 MB + programs - xy MB = 256 MB plus).

If you are going to use things like the B4 or Kontakt plus effects (especially reverb) then you should use some thing like a Pentium 4 with 512 MB & 1 GHz. I use a Pentium 4, 1GB RAM, 2GHz and even at that I can bring it down to its knees with heavy doses of effects like reverb.

The sYnerGiGS Wavetable is a GM and Partial GS/XG set of instruments contained in one soundfont file. This file is about 44 or 50 MB in size. It is this file you load into the soft synth LiveSynth Pro and use for playing your styles with Live-Styler or OMB. So you have to connect Live-Styler using something like Midi Yoke (free) to forte/LiveSynth Pro. And then Play!!!

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#190856 - 09/16/03 09:30 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Vquestor Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 554
Quote:
Originally posted by elle:
Hi Frank,

I think your queste has come to a point where you (and others) might want to setup should setup a "Open Software Aranger Group" of some kind, which could approach the core vendors for your framework (the likes of Brainspawn and livestyler/OMB) and beyond the mere software interoperability of these modules pressure for a higher level (hardware simulation?) interface so the FLR can also be used in live situation.

jus a thought

elle


Yes Elle, I agree.
I think that Nigel should consider adding
a "Software Arranger Forum" in the near
future. The time has finally arrived.

Frank,
I can't express how absolutely excited I am
at the fantastic success you have been
having! I think that LiveSynthPro 1.4
still is the best option presently, so using
it as long as it works is not a problem.
I hope someone would buy and support their
great product.
Once they perfect ASIO compatibility, my only fear is that Brainspawn will get bought out by one of the big boys(e.g.,Cakewalk,Steinberg,etc.), and get put
on a shelf, so it won't compete with their
other products. Sorry for being so presumptuous - I hope I'm wrong.

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#190857 - 09/17/03 05:19 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Vquestor, I find Brainspawn very responsive to requests for additional features and changes. After listening to me yap about Audio In they are now including it as a feature. I think one of their code writers is also a guitarist and finds this feature will be useful for adding live guitar effects. You see everyone benefits from working together.

One can only hope they remain a viable separate company - makes for competition and product enhancements & differentiation. Brainspawn's forte will definitely irratate Steinberg & Cakewalk. You now do not have to spend hundreds of dollars to buy Cubase SX or Cakewalk Sonar just to get Audio In. As you mentioned, RT Player Pro can host VoiceMachine. As a result, it to must have Audio In. We have 2 alternatives besides the big 2 or 4 companies.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 09-17-2003).]

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#190858 - 09/17/03 07:52 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Starkeeper, I should have added to the previous posting on activating fills, intros, endings, variations, etc. that you can also program your computer keyboard to do this. So you don't absolutely need a 76 note keyboard to program the lower octave for this function.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 09-17-2003).]

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#190859 - 10/10/03 10:15 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Vquestor Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 554
Frank,
How is Forte 1.3beta working out?

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#190860 - 10/11/03 04:49 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi everyone,

I'm new here at this board.
And registred after reading all this posts.
My question is the following..
I have a DAW station, and recently added an aardvark LX6pro audiocard (really good low latency but no sounds onboard). I couldn't make it work together with my old audigy, so I putted this one into my other internet pc.
I used to play midifiles (xg/gs/gm) with vanbasco together with a good soundfont. And playing live guitar, keyboard and singing. Worked fantastic. No need for launching nuendo. But I can't do this anymore.. No more access straight to soundfonts :-(
I use winXP Pro. After reading these posts, I think a combination of MidiYoke NT, Vanbasco, Livesynth Pro, Brainspawn forte will simulate what I did before with only the audigy..
I can order brainspawn via the net, but can not find Livesynth pro anywhere. Is the support of this program finished? Or does anybody knows where I can order this?
If I understand right, is it possible to select the BS Forte inside VanBasco?

Thanks for answers in advance, regards, Nina

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#190861 - 10/11/03 06:01 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Vquestor, I just got forte 1.3 Beta 3 and tested all the things critical for my application (selfish) with the following results:

Works & Sounds Excellent:

LiveSynth Pro
Kontakt
UltraFunk Sonitus Effects
Audio In
DecaBuddy (fixed harmonies)
Appearance Excellent
Launches quickly
Loads VST instruments in Kontakt fairly quickly - not as fast as in Cubase SX

Nice to have & issues:

Save the Audio In Module settings in the forte Ensemble files.

Midi notes are not reaching VoiceMachine or DecaBuddy.

As far as I am concerned the good people at Brainspawn could remove the Beta designation (once the midi notes to DecaBuddy/VoiceMachine is solved) and call it a day - which is almost a lifetime for an old man. I am happy with the way it is. They plan on implementing further innovations, e.g., MidiFx similar to Cakewalk Sonar. You should know that the guitar guys are very happy with the implementation of Audio In. It significantly enhances their ability to generate noise. Good for them!!! By the way, I got Cakewalk Sonar 3.0 and it still can't do vocal harmonizers - no way of getting midi notes to the effects. It can now play more than one synth at a time without the use of Project5.

Brainspawn forte Ensemble is by far the most effective, efficient and reliable host. Plus it is affordable (relatively).

Finally, who knows what happened to LiveSynth Pro. There are other synths on the market which will play soundfonts, e.g., BS-16, Audio Compositor, Orion Sampler (I think), rgaudio, SeerMusic, Sound Burst, etc. These just do not work as well or sound as well on Yamaha styles or midis. The styles and midis would need to be modified to work with a GM Wavetable. If you are going to make such changes then Edirol's HQ Hyper Canvas is a good option. Also VSampler 3.0 is out and it can handle soundfonts quite well but can't find the Yamaha drums in sYnergi GS.

Hopefully, LiveSynth Pro will come back stronger than ever or in a new incarnation of some kind.

Alternatively, we should convince some of the very talented programmers on this forum to devise a small tranlation program (XG to GM) with emphasis on the individual drum instruments and appropriate note numbers. I would even be willing to pay $30 for this program. I could do this myself with GNMidi but I am an old man and would rather watch grass grow or the weather channel!!!


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 10-11-2003).]

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#190862 - 10/11/03 12:44 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Vquestor Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 554
That's fantastic news Frank!!
I'm sure those Brainspawn guys can resolve
the midi note issue you are talking about.
Is your main style player program still
LiveStyler, or OMB or both?

I agree that LiveSynth is just too good a
program to let die.
I wish I had the programming skills and
know-how to make the drum map translator
you describe, but hopefully someone here
will do so. It seems to be the last missing piece in your full-fledged software arranger
system, that will allow loading of standard
Yam style files,so we can just PLAY, and
finally not get bogged down by all this technology that doesn't quite work right.
Kudos to you and your flr2003!

[This message has been edited by Vquestor (edited 10-11-2003).]

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#190863 - 10/11/03 02:25 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Vquestor, you are right the Brainspawn people already know the answer to the missing midi note problem. It is the result of 4 missing lines in the Option.ini file. In fact, this is a temporary solution just for me to accommodate the vocal harmonizers. The future solution (version 1.4) will make it part of the overall MidiFx enhancement.

So again, I am very happy with the whole outcome of this adventure.

I still use Live - Styler as my main style player. I am currently doing some beta testing for it (harmonies, mp3, midi player, etc.). OMB has its pluses too. It plays PSR2100 & Tyros styles without modifications for such things as OTS, etc.

With respect to LiveSynth Pro I plan to proceed as follows:

* Continue to use it for as long as it remains the best option.

* Start planning to use another alternative. If I had to make a decision today I would pick VSampler 3.0/sYnerGi GS Wavetable and modify the styles (change drums from 16256 to bank 127) and do a few each day.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 10-11-2003).]

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#190864 - 10/11/03 08:31 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
oleg7 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 54
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
I saw that the new version of the Sampletank 2 will respond to the MIDI program changes. Here is the quote: "SampleTank® 2 sounds can also be associated to MIDI program change with one easy one click. This allows for instant recall of sounds during live performance, and makes it easy to build your ultimate General MIDI set."
Sampletank 2 is not cheap but the sound quality should be better than Soundfonts. Maybe it could provide another alternative...
http://www.sampletank.com/Main.html?sampletank2-desc

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#190865 - 10/12/03 05:47 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
oleg7, you presented another very good alternative. The same thing applies here and that is the drums will need to be modified either in the sampler or the Yamaha styles. Yamaha has chosen to be unique at the expense of customer satisfaction.

As far as quality goes, you can achieve very high quality by converting premium voices to Soundfont. The drawback is the Wavetable gets very large very quickly. I have done some of it for instruments of critical importance to me, e.g., piano, sax, trumpet, etc. If I wanted to, I could convert my Giga 500 MB GM Wavetable (GM500) to Soundfont (or other format) to use with my auto accompaniment only. I would still keep using my premium voices with Kontakt for my lead/melody parts.

While I have not tested it, Halion 2.0 may present another very high quality GM Wavetable solution. Sonic Reality may be another more moderate quality possibility.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 10-12-2003).]

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#190866 - 10/14/03 12:11 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Jick Duck Offline
Member

Registered: 12/16/99
Posts: 140
Loc: Brooklyn NY
"TEST"
Please ignore.
_________________________
Jick

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#190867 - 10/14/03 12:49 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Jick Duck Offline
Member

Registered: 12/16/99
Posts: 140
Loc: Brooklyn NY
Hi,
I havn't posted for quite some time now,
but I've been reading the posts.

I'm very interested in this software arranger project. My dream is to have "everything" in one box (portable) and upgradable that I can use live at gigs.

I am thinking of mounting a:

76 key controller keyboard
P4, motherboard, harddrive, CD-RW etc...
High quality soundcard
Mixer (doesn't have to be a gigantig one)
Flat panel touchscreen (not so expensive on eBay)
Maybe a midi control surface with touch pads.

I want to assemble all these things in one "box"
All the components (besides the box) should weigh very little. I would take the mixer out of its metal case and attach the pc boards(s) inside my box with the pots sticking through the top and in/outputs
on top and in back.

I can use any software I want and the computer parts are cheap and upgradable.

Also, Live styler 4.0 is available and you can directly load soundfonts (I think this means no softsynth is needed).

My only problem is the "box". What do I use and it must not be too heavy.

I would appreciate your ideas.]
Do you think it's doable?
_________________________
Jick

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#190868 - 10/14/03 01:53 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Clif Anderson Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/00
Posts: 532
Hi Jim

This seems to work.
Sony GRT170 Laptop 2.8 GHz P4, expanded to 1G RAM, 60GB HD, 16" LCD. Add Indigo IO card for ASIO drivers and high quality AD and DA conversions. Yamaha UX16 is my MIDI interface which I use with various keyboards as controllers. As long as you have an AC outlet, you are fine. Don't expect much on the internal battery.

I am running, Forte (Demo), Kontakt, Virtual Guitarist, NI Carbon, X-Phrase. I have not tried HD streaming with Kontakt with this system.

If you are going to carry stuff around, there is no more need for a desktop computer.

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#190869 - 10/14/03 01:58 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Jick Duck, I guess almost anything is doable if you are sufficiently motivated and take the time and money to make it happen.

To get everything in one box you could go the very expensive route as follows:

Eko Systems http://www.openlabs.com/
Wersi & others

These approaches my satisfy your objects but it will come at a high cost.

Another approach is go about it with separate modules:

Roland A37 midi controller or other
Shuttle computer with an excellent soundcard http://www.shuttle.com/
Mixer/Amp/Speakers
Etc.

After all this you would need to get your choice of software some of which has been discussed in this thread.

I hope this helps.

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#190870 - 10/14/03 02:01 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Yes, and I also agree with Clif. A number of live performers are going this route.

Clif, it is interesting that you are running forte. I have finished testing forte 1.3 Beta 3 and it seems to work very well. It does a far better job with VoiceMachine (Generator & Processer) as compared with Cubase SX. There is far less delay. There is still some and hence I prefer to use DecaBuddy.

And there are more interesting things for forte in the future.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 10-14-2003).]

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#190871 - 10/14/03 09:23 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
oleg7 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 54
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Frank, what is the feature described for the Live-Styler Ver 4.0: "You can load a Soundblaster soundfont directly". Is this the version you are using ?
http://www.live-styler.de/news.html

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#190872 - 10/15/03 05:01 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
oleg7, I have not tested this feature but yes you can load soundfonts or soundfont wavetables. I believe the accompaniment cannot use these soundfonts but your left hand and right hand keyboard voices can. I have used version 4.0 for a while and am currently testing version 5.0.

I guess from my perspective, I would prefer a style player which focuses primarily on the accompaniment and less on these esoteric features. With forte Ensemble or other hosts and software synths these features become superfluous. Some of the other arranger/workstation type features may be interesting, e.g., harmonies, play mp3 or midi clips, etc.

I would even take a good XG to GM conversion over some of these features.

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#190873 - 10/15/03 05:59 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Clif Anderson Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/00
Posts: 532
Frank, I am using Forte thanks to you. I needed something to run VSTs. I first tried Cubasis, which cost $100. I assumed since it was Steinberg (who created the VST and ASIO specs), it would work well. But it had latencies on the order of a second! I read the earlier posts in this thread and decided to try Forte. I downloaded Solo (Free), and the Ensemble (Demo). I highly recommend Forte Solo as a free program to test VSTs for those who do not have something else. I have downloaded DeccaBuddy, but haven't tried it yet. I look forward to future versions of Brainspawn and I appreciate your inputs to them, because they serve my purposes as well.

BTW: Harmony-Central has a press release on the 64-bit NeKo (name has been changed) from Open Systems. Maybe Donny will repost the kewl picture here or in a new thread.

[This message has been edited by Clif Anderson (edited 10-15-2003).]

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#190874 - 10/15/03 09:12 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Clif, Akai DecaBuddy seems to do an excellent job. You can create nice rich harmonies using either midi notes or fixed harmonies. There is no noticable latency when using it in forte Ensemble (or even in Cubase SX - Amazing).

It has been a long time since I first started using DecaBuddy but if my memory serves me right there were some glitches in the demo and the purchased versions. I phoned Akai and they made an updated version available (v1.01) and everything has worked well ever since. If you go this route make sure you get the updated version and if necessary contact me.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 10-15-2003).]

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#190875 - 10/21/03 08:57 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Vquestor Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 554
Frank,
I hope all is progressing well.
I just read that Halion2 has program
change capability. Have you checked this
out yet and if it works properly with Yamaha
drums?

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#190876 - 10/22/03 05:11 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Vquestor, things are going very well. I expect to see a new Beta version for forte soon. Although for my purposes everything is working very well indeed. Further, there should be a new version of Live-Styler soon with some interesting new features. For me the harmony feature is of some interest.

I just installed an update for Sonar 3.0 and it has some problems. I noticed the update page in Cakewalk has suddenly disappeard. This is a bit of a pain. With Sonar 3.0, I have VSampler 3.01 but have not spent a whole lot of time with it as yet. It provides an option to LiveSynth Pro should I need to use it.

I have not got Halion v2.0. So I cannot say how well it will work with respect to program changes or drums. My guess is that the same issues will apply with respect to the drums, i.e., XG vs GM compatibility. Halion, however, is receiving very good reviews. Should LiveSynth Pro become a less desireable alternative then moving towards Halion for both the Accompaniment and the Lead/Melody voices looks very appealing. This would need some testing - Halion is expensive.

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#190877 - 10/28/03 07:04 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Jick Duck Offline
Member

Registered: 12/16/99
Posts: 140
Loc: Brooklyn NY
Frank, Thanks for you advice.
Is it still possible to get livesynth pro for purchase or for free?
I've tried live-styler. It looks promising for live use but I'm havig problems with chord recognition and with transpose.
Is this a demo limitation or a hardware conflict?
I e-mailed live-styler but I still havn't recieved an answer yet.
Maybe I sent it to the wrong e-mail address.
What is the address I'm supposed to send it to?

Jick
_________________________
Jick

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#190878 - 10/29/03 05:15 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Jick Duck, here is my response to your questions:

I do not know of a way to purchase LiveSynth Pro. It may become available again.

I am not certain what you mean by having transpose & chord recognition problems with Live - Styler. If you want to transpose the style voices you can do that in a style editor. If you mean the right/left hand voices then that should be possible utilizing the UM1, UM2, etc. shift buttons. I generally do not use this feature and prefer instead to use Kontakt for my lead/melody voices. In this case, I either transpose in forte Ensemble or in Kontakt.

If you wish to contact Norbert Stellberg concerning Live - Styler, then the followign E-mail address should work:

Norbert Stellberg@stellberg.de



[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 10-29-2003).]

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#190879 - 10/29/03 07:31 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Jick Duck Offline
Member

Registered: 12/16/99
Posts: 140
Loc: Brooklyn NY
Thanks Frank, It's a shame about livesynth pro. No way to get it.
About live-Styler, I mean the transpose buttons in the main live-styler window.
The instructions state:

Transposer:
These two buttons allow you to transpose the played notes. The accompaniment is also affected by the transposition. The display between the buttons shows your actual value by which you are transposing.

I'll try it out again and see if I can sort things out.

Anyhow, Thanks for your help,
Jick
_________________________
Jick

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#190880 - 10/29/03 09:50 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Jick Duck, if you just want to change the transposition of the upper/lower voices (not the accompaniment) then you could do this by:

Using the shift button for the UM1 to UM4 voices or,

Go into controller for the UM1 to UM4 voices and adjust the pitch.

I have not tried this in a long time but I believe you can also send volume/transposition changes via midi messages from the keyboard.

In my case I can set this up as Scene Changes in forte and send it program changes from my keyboard. Works great for live performances.

Those of us who have LiveSynth Pro may need to have a private discussion as to whether we provide copies of this program given there is no longer a business impacted by such actions - with the exception of its competition. What do others think?

If this does not work then there are other alternatives as already mentioned in this thread.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 10-29-2003).]

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#190881 - 10/31/03 08:34 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Jick Duck Offline
Member

Registered: 12/16/99
Posts: 140
Loc: Brooklyn NY
Frank, I want to transpose "everything" (Right, Left, and accompaniment)at the same time by pressing just one key. I thought that the up and down transpose arrows in the live-styler main window are suppossed to do just that. However, when I click on one of the arrows I think its trying to transpose the accommpaniment but my chord recognition goes haywire. I don't hear any transposition in the right hand voices. I'm expecting just the simple transpose feature found on all arranger keyboards.

What do you mean by "UM1 to UM4 voices"?

Midi messages from the keyboard (Roland A70 A37 etc..) sounds like not a bad idea.

I am using forte solo and demo but I'm not to farmiliar with their features. By the way, what are the limitations in forte demo?

About livesynth pro, well, I wish I can have it. I still didn't get Vsampler 2.75 (demo?)
to load my gm soundbank that I downloaded from hammersound site. Its an 80 or something megabyte font so maybe thats the problem. I really want to try out live-styler with a softsynth that I know can handle big gm banks and be efficient and stable for live use. I still havn't gotten that yet.

Before I go about assembling my software based arranger keyboard I want to have the software and know that it works good.

[This message has been edited by Jick Duck (edited 10-31-2003).]
_________________________
Jick

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#190882 - 10/31/03 02:42 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Jick Duck, I don't know which version of Live-Styler you have. This could be the cause of missed communications. However, the way you describe the transposition should work. Here is a quote from the help file on the Live-Styler web site:

Transposer:
These two buttons allow you to transpose the played notes. The accompaniment is also affected by the transposition. The display between the buttons shows your actual value by which you are transposing.

I am currently testing version 5 and the following are the voices you would play live on the keyboard:

UM1 to UM4 (probably means upper manual)
LM1 to LM3 (Lower Manual)
PED (Bass Pedal)

In previous versions of Live - Styler these voices would have been referred to as R1, R2, R3, L1, etc.

When you go into Options and uncheck the Accompaniment, these voices should be revealed at the bottom of the main view. For each Voice UM1, etc. there is a shift key which will transpose the voice up or down one octave. If you go into controller you can adjust the pitch.

Sending pitch/transposition changes from the keyboard to so many different voices plus the accompaniment may not be to easy. You would need more than 16 channels to do so.

Keep in mind you would need to have voices loaded in Live - Styler and assigned to UM1, etc. for this to work. Alternatively you would need to assign the appropriate Midi Port and Channel from Live - Styler to the Sampler for each of UM1, etc. As I noted previously, I do not use these features in Live - Styler. I prefer to work in forte and transpose each channel/voice and assign it to a Scene. If I then want to change transposition I just send the appropriate progam change number from my keyboard - fast & easy!!!

I am not certain of what all the restriction for forte may be but this is a quote from their site:

'Evaluation

THE USER has the right to evaluate this PRODUCT for the period of 30 days, provided that terms of Operating license are compiled with, and that the PRODUCT is not used for profit, including but not limited to creating patch libraries and sounds for any pieces THE USER are profiting from. Should you continue use of the PRODUCT after your evaluation period expires, or use it for any profit, THE USER shall pay the registration fee.'

VSampler 2.75 only has 64 banks. So if you load anything with more than that (GM - Drums Bank 127) you will end up with an unworkable mess. I would try Version 3.02 and see how it works for you. Remember you would need to reasign the drums from Bank 16256 to 127 within the Yamaha Style for this to work. This might work very well for you given that you have interest in changing/transposing voices. VSampler has far more control over voices than LiveSynth Pro. With LiveSynth Pro you would also need to acquire Soundfaction Alive or Vienna to modifiy the voices.

What about trying OMB? Jos is very good at answering questions. I happen to like Live-Styler but you must remember I started with it and have grown accustom to it.

I hope this helps.



[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 10-31-2003).]

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#190883 - 11/09/03 04:19 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Jick Duck Offline
Member

Registered: 12/16/99
Posts: 140
Loc: Brooklyn NY
Live-styler 5.0 is now available for download at http://www.live-styler.de/download.html
I'm still waiting for the English manual though.

Version 5.0 looks very promising especially with all those one touch settings. It is adaptable to use with a touch sensitive lcd screen.

One thing though, I keep on getting an illegal error and the program shuts down. Can't play for more than a few minutes at most.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong while manually installing those dll files. I copied them to c:\windows\system and system32. Does this have to be done with 5.0?

Whats the deal with the soundfonts in live styler? Do I need a softsynth at all?

Also, the new vsampler site is up at http://www.maz-sound.com/

C'mon. Why no posts on this subject? Its the thread I'm always waiting to read.

[This message has been edited by Jick Duck (edited 11-09-2003).]
_________________________
Jick

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#190884 - 11/09/03 06:16 PM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Vquestor Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 554
I downloaded the new Vsampler3 demo,
but it seems that while it loads soundfonts
that can be played via external MIDI, it will only play the demo techno distorted sample file when played from a sequencer(via
Midi Yoke).
Am I doing something wrong or does the demo
only allow this?

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#190885 - 11/10/03 05:31 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Jick Duck & Vquestor may have to start a new thread. This one is getting long in the tooth!!!

Jick Duck, one of the benefits of Live - Styler is exactly as you point out, i.e., it's suitability for touch screens. Branda of Germany does just that and uses a modified version of Live - Styler.

The dll files should be placed in Windows\System32 as you did.

I would say the loading of soundfonts in Live - Styler is only marginally useful for playing live the right and left hand side of your controller keyboard. It is much better to have a softsynth for this especially if you are going to use a host like forte Ensemble.

Vquestor, after seeing your note, I quickly tested the DXi Version that came with Sonar 3. Quess what - it works!!! It even seems to work without having to make adjustments to the style drum banks 16256 to 127. This version of VSampler automatically copies the drums from bank 127 to 128. Now, I have to do far more testing to see whether it works ok in general. I only ran 2 styles using Live - Styler and it worked ok. I got some hanging notes but that could be that I did not remove LiveSynth Pro from forte which uses the same midi ports. I will let you know as I find more things.

I have been able take advantage of several updates, namely, Cakewalk Sonar 3 (UltraFunk Sonitus Effects) and Live - Styler. These seem to work well on my system - so far. I have finished beta testing forte Ensemble Release Candidate 1 (RC1). It is a winner!!!!!!!!!!!! The public release should happen shortly. This is an important milestone in quest for a software based arranger system - efficient, effective, reliable and priced right. You can't lose - I think.

I should remind all those contemplating systems like this that it pays to tweak your Windows XP as per the information I pointed to in past posts on this topic. It is especially important to do this if you run heavy duty samplers with disk streaming.

Talking about disk streaming, VSampler is not able to do this and therefore you would not beable to effectively use the premium instruments, e.g., Bardstown Bosendorfer 2.5 GB Piano. They are planning on adding this feature in the next update. I think they may be optimistic. This is a difficult feature to get to work properly - as others have learned the hard way.

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#190886 - 11/10/03 05:43 AM Re: Frank- FLR2003 status?
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Jick Duck, I forgot to comment on your Live - Styler faulting issue. Most often this can be corrected by being very careful in how you setup your midi ports/channels. Live - Styler does not make this part very easy. I understand N. Stellberg will have his English Manual available very soon. This may also help. Other than this, I don't know why Live - Styler is faulting on your system. It could be conflicts with other software running in the background, other Live - Styler settings, etc. Sorry can't help much with this one.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-10-2003).]

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