...are what?

I guess here's one. If you have a good midi, it will reproduce the exact break and leads, etc. of the original song. Often, a style won't do that. Unless the style was created for that particular song.

Bad thing about a midi is you are locked in, you can't wing it on the fly.

What else?

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

I guess this topic has been around the block a few times before and it usually seems to end up in two camps.

1. Those who see nothing wrong with the practice of using midifiles, citing their reasons as the very ones you mention.

2. Those who regard the wholesale use of midifiles as nothing more than outright cheating.

FWIW, of the 120+ songs in our duo's repertoire, I use 7 midifiles for numbers that don't quite cut it in arranger mode alone.

True, most audiences like to hear songs that sound 'just like the record', but I don't like being shackled by the restrictions imposed by midifiles, and find that if you do a good job using arranger mode, audiences will enjoy what you do.

Anyway, I've always been a 'player'. (Oops, don't tell the wife that )

For those who believe good basslines should be more than just a repetitive 'thump' at the bottom of the band, SMFs are one solution to the loss of good voice leading and melodic counterpoint that arrangers force on you.

Some songs work OK with preset bassline, but many are changed almost out of recognition by the loss of the melodic element of a good bassline. Have a good listen to any good song from the 60s and 70s and beyond (not to mention the jazz greats) and you realize that, probably, the bassline is the one element MOST compromised by the 'loop' nature of arranger play.

But to say you give up all control with an SMF ignores the recent advances by Roland (and others, I think) to be able to place 'markers' or cue points at various places in the sequence, and jump to them on-the-fly, whenever you need to extend (or shorten!) a song.

This, in combination with easy ways to solo and mute tracks quickly, DURING playback, are really starting to blur the line between SMFs and arranger play...........

Yes Diki,

I was just about to say the same thing.
The Tyros2 has 4 markers that you can use to loop any part of a midi.
On top of it you can mute parts and play them yourself.

Eric

I feel using midi files has it’s place. There
are songs you just can’t play without a prerecorded file if you wish to sound like something close to the original. So they do have their place for me.
Playing live – I enjoy it, it’s the reason I bought the keyboard. I play, I can express myself and you hear my personality.
My relationship with music

1-I played guitar for many years, I loved it, studied intently and had a romance with it. When playing my favorites on guitar I was complete.

2-When I was forced to go to keyboard, OMB, I missed the guitar, but at least I was still playing music.

3-A most important revelation; I learned that it was not so much that I loved the guitar, but I love music and the guitar was only the vehicle. After becoming comfortable with the keyboard I lost my desire to play the guitar, the keyboard was so complete – it allowed me to express my feelings so completely. I feel the keyboard and I are one when I am playing. There is nobody else.
4-When I sing I enjoy being free with the way I handle the lyrics. My right and left hand go right along with the feeling. I call this freedom, I love it.

5-IMPORTANT, None of this is about the people who are trying to earn a living and having to please for an audience. I feel you use whatever you must to succeed, I did in my younger days.

You now have my reason for wanting to play live and use midi files only when I must.

IMHO. John C.


[This message has been edited by bruno123 (edited 07-02-2006).]

I always get a kick out of the midi file/cheaters debate. I think it's pointless, because whether you use an arranger, or synth--we're ALL cheaters We loop our drum lines (even user recorded ones-but we still "cheat" and loop them to save time).

We loop other tracks blah blah blah..., We at time "copy" and "paste" to once again save time. We use one of the "greatest" cheats available--QUANTIZE! If that's not the biggest cheaters tool than what is--geez a feature to perfect our "unperfect" timing. Just accept it---we're all cheaters.

Last time I checked didn't the majority of PSR's now have a SONG DATABASE of presets??? Hmmmm I remember many of those presets titles fall quite close to the original song title the file was intended to be used for.

The moment you select a preset style, press play, and jam away....guess what..? You've just cheated! Does it make you any less of a musician. NOPE!

It's the same way with my synths. It's loaded with preset patterns, and preset arps that take the headache out of creating difficult passages. Do I cheat? YUP-and with a big smile on my face too.

The moment you turned the keyboard on and select a non-piano voice--you've cheated. You may hear a beautiful sax playing, but is it "really" a sax player? Heck no. It's the skilled musician who has learned how to properly emulate that sound utilizing the tools provided to him by modern technology as well as his own knowledge of said instrument.

So we all cheat--do arranger players cheat? Hell Yeah.., but they cheat and do a damn good job at it too : Do we synth players cheat..., better bet your arse we do.

"Moden Technology" has made us ALL cheaters. So what..., enjoy life, make the music, kiss a beautiful woman, run in the park naked, but don't EVER let the music stop!

Cheat on my friends,
Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-02-2006).]

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-02-2006).]

You're on MY wavelength Squeak.
I am now at an age when I have to enjoy what is left for me, but I stop short at running in the park naked. I wouldn't want to scare too many unsuspecting people

As for the thread theme, I am all for cheating. Life's too short. Get your enjoyment NOW



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Eddie from Rotherham
Skype:eddiefromrotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

While midi files usually make up about 10 to 25 percent of my performances, midi files are just one more tool in the OMB entertainer's toolbox. Use anything that keeps the dancefloor packed, the toes tappin and the audiences singing. Obviousluy, the constraints of midi files are such that when the song ends it's over! Therefore, if you have an audience that is slow getting to the dancefloor the song could be ending just about the time the couple begins dancing. Consequently, this is where style files are the obvious choice. I have thousands upon thousands of great style files that have served me well over the years. But, I have a fair number of outstanding midi files that I utilize as well.

As for the "Cheating" part--that's crap! This is all part of the entertainment business--and that's why the audiences pay us--to be entertained! If you don't believe this is the case, stop entertaining them and see how long you stay in business.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

All styles are midi files - they're just shorter. This inevitably brings up a certain repetitive nature to the sound whenever an arranger is used. I find that I can give midi files a far more human sound my varying the velocity of the instruments, especially percussion, over the entire song rather than just the measure or two that arranger styles allows. Additionally of course I can record backing keyboard parts over midi files for the entire length of the song.

Also using midi files relieves you of the housekeeping duties an arranger demands when playing live - an arranger takes a lot of button pushes at exact points, not to mention that it can tie up your left hand with chording duties. I'm a pianist foremost so arrangers can be inhibitive to my freeranging performing.

Midi files allows you to program far more than just instruments - I've programmed harmonizers, lights, mixers and even computer graphics to execute complex scene changes during songs. Granted you can do this with arrangers too but not to the level of complexity that you can with a midi file.

If you want to ad lib just build solo sections into the midi file and make the song long to start with... you can then cut it off short on the fly if you want. String several of your fav dance numbers into a single-file-medley and cut it off when appropriate. Also you can do the opposite: make some relatively short "jam" midis that you can start over on the beat thus making a song that can be played as long as you want.

I see little difference between using midi files and a well-rehearsed band because in the end the idea is to rehearse the song enough to get it right everytime. There is an art to creating and using midi files and not everyone does it well. Same can be said with arrangers.

Having said all that, the ideal solution is to use both an arranger and midi files for the greatest range of options. That's what I do, but I rely on midi files 90% for reasons already given. I've also spent a good deal of time explaining the advantages of arrangers to guys who only use midi files.

Jim, I have the same perspective as you..

I have the same ratio as you with the trio..
My solo work is about 60% SMF's, 25% MP3 and 15% arranger mode..

Gary today's markers[on newer boards] eliminate the [dreaded song is over as people come to the dance floor ]problem..

Right now I need to carry two boards to get all that I want for a performance....The G70 sure could make this easier for me.

If I wasn't spoiled by how good the harmonizer is on the DisCover 5, I would only still need my G1000.

I am looking forward to Hank and Don's comments about Hank's new G70..