Advantages / disadvantages of MIDI over a style

...are what?

I guess here's one. If you have a good midi, it will reproduce the exact break and leads, etc. of the original song. Often, a style won't do that. Unless the style was created for that particular song.

Bad thing about a midi is you are locked in, you can't wing it on the fly.

What else?

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

I guess this topic has been around the block a few times before and it usually seems to end up in two camps.

1. Those who see nothing wrong with the practice of using midifiles, citing their reasons as the very ones you mention.

2. Those who regard the wholesale use of midifiles as nothing more than outright cheating.

FWIW, of the 120+ songs in our duo's repertoire, I use 7 midifiles for numbers that don't quite cut it in arranger mode alone.

True, most audiences like to hear songs that sound 'just like the record', but I don't like being shackled by the restrictions imposed by midifiles, and find that if you do a good job using arranger mode, audiences will enjoy what you do.

Anyway, I've always been a 'player'. (Oops, don't tell the wife that )

For those who believe good basslines should be more than just a repetitive 'thump' at the bottom of the band, SMFs are one solution to the loss of good voice leading and melodic counterpoint that arrangers force on you.

Some songs work OK with preset bassline, but many are changed almost out of recognition by the loss of the melodic element of a good bassline. Have a good listen to any good song from the 60s and 70s and beyond (not to mention the jazz greats) and you realize that, probably, the bassline is the one element MOST compromised by the 'loop' nature of arranger play.

But to say you give up all control with an SMF ignores the recent advances by Roland (and others, I think) to be able to place 'markers' or cue points at various places in the sequence, and jump to them on-the-fly, whenever you need to extend (or shorten!) a song.

This, in combination with easy ways to solo and mute tracks quickly, DURING playback, are really starting to blur the line between SMFs and arranger play...........

Yes Diki,

I was just about to say the same thing.
The Tyros2 has 4 markers that you can use to loop any part of a midi.
On top of it you can mute parts and play them yourself.

Eric

I feel using midi files has it’s place. There
are songs you just can’t play without a prerecorded file if you wish to sound like something close to the original. So they do have their place for me.
Playing live – I enjoy it, it’s the reason I bought the keyboard. I play, I can express myself and you hear my personality.
My relationship with music

1-I played guitar for many years, I loved it, studied intently and had a romance with it. When playing my favorites on guitar I was complete.

2-When I was forced to go to keyboard, OMB, I missed the guitar, but at least I was still playing music.

3-A most important revelation; I learned that it was not so much that I loved the guitar, but I love music and the guitar was only the vehicle. After becoming comfortable with the keyboard I lost my desire to play the guitar, the keyboard was so complete – it allowed me to express my feelings so completely. I feel the keyboard and I are one when I am playing. There is nobody else.
4-When I sing I enjoy being free with the way I handle the lyrics. My right and left hand go right along with the feeling. I call this freedom, I love it.

5-IMPORTANT, None of this is about the people who are trying to earn a living and having to please for an audience. I feel you use whatever you must to succeed, I did in my younger days.

You now have my reason for wanting to play live and use midi files only when I must.

IMHO. John C.


[This message has been edited by bruno123 (edited 07-02-2006).]

I always get a kick out of the midi file/cheaters debate. I think it's pointless, because whether you use an arranger, or synth--we're ALL cheaters We loop our drum lines (even user recorded ones-but we still "cheat" and loop them to save time).

We loop other tracks blah blah blah..., We at time "copy" and "paste" to once again save time. We use one of the "greatest" cheats available--QUANTIZE! If that's not the biggest cheaters tool than what is--geez a feature to perfect our "unperfect" timing. Just accept it---we're all cheaters.

Last time I checked didn't the majority of PSR's now have a SONG DATABASE of presets??? Hmmmm I remember many of those presets titles fall quite close to the original song title the file was intended to be used for.

The moment you select a preset style, press play, and jam away....guess what..? You've just cheated! Does it make you any less of a musician. NOPE!

It's the same way with my synths. It's loaded with preset patterns, and preset arps that take the headache out of creating difficult passages. Do I cheat? YUP-and with a big smile on my face too.

The moment you turned the keyboard on and select a non-piano voice--you've cheated. You may hear a beautiful sax playing, but is it "really" a sax player? Heck no. It's the skilled musician who has learned how to properly emulate that sound utilizing the tools provided to him by modern technology as well as his own knowledge of said instrument.

So we all cheat--do arranger players cheat? Hell Yeah.., but they cheat and do a damn good job at it too : Do we synth players cheat..., better bet your arse we do.

"Moden Technology" has made us ALL cheaters. So what..., enjoy life, make the music, kiss a beautiful woman, run in the park naked, but don't EVER let the music stop!

Cheat on my friends,
Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-02-2006).]

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-02-2006).]

You're on MY wavelength Squeak.
I am now at an age when I have to enjoy what is left for me, but I stop short at running in the park naked. I wouldn't want to scare too many unsuspecting people

As for the thread theme, I am all for cheating. Life's too short. Get your enjoyment NOW



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Eddie from Rotherham
Skype:eddiefromrotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

While midi files usually make up about 10 to 25 percent of my performances, midi files are just one more tool in the OMB entertainer's toolbox. Use anything that keeps the dancefloor packed, the toes tappin and the audiences singing. Obviousluy, the constraints of midi files are such that when the song ends it's over! Therefore, if you have an audience that is slow getting to the dancefloor the song could be ending just about the time the couple begins dancing. Consequently, this is where style files are the obvious choice. I have thousands upon thousands of great style files that have served me well over the years. But, I have a fair number of outstanding midi files that I utilize as well.

As for the "Cheating" part--that's crap! This is all part of the entertainment business--and that's why the audiences pay us--to be entertained! If you don't believe this is the case, stop entertaining them and see how long you stay in business.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

All styles are midi files - they're just shorter. This inevitably brings up a certain repetitive nature to the sound whenever an arranger is used. I find that I can give midi files a far more human sound my varying the velocity of the instruments, especially percussion, over the entire song rather than just the measure or two that arranger styles allows. Additionally of course I can record backing keyboard parts over midi files for the entire length of the song.

Also using midi files relieves you of the housekeeping duties an arranger demands when playing live - an arranger takes a lot of button pushes at exact points, not to mention that it can tie up your left hand with chording duties. I'm a pianist foremost so arrangers can be inhibitive to my freeranging performing.

Midi files allows you to program far more than just instruments - I've programmed harmonizers, lights, mixers and even computer graphics to execute complex scene changes during songs. Granted you can do this with arrangers too but not to the level of complexity that you can with a midi file.

If you want to ad lib just build solo sections into the midi file and make the song long to start with... you can then cut it off short on the fly if you want. String several of your fav dance numbers into a single-file-medley and cut it off when appropriate. Also you can do the opposite: make some relatively short "jam" midis that you can start over on the beat thus making a song that can be played as long as you want.

I see little difference between using midi files and a well-rehearsed band because in the end the idea is to rehearse the song enough to get it right everytime. There is an art to creating and using midi files and not everyone does it well. Same can be said with arrangers.

Having said all that, the ideal solution is to use both an arranger and midi files for the greatest range of options. That's what I do, but I rely on midi files 90% for reasons already given. I've also spent a good deal of time explaining the advantages of arrangers to guys who only use midi files.

Jim, I have the same perspective as you..

I have the same ratio as you with the trio..
My solo work is about 60% SMF's, 25% MP3 and 15% arranger mode..

Gary today's markers[on newer boards] eliminate the [dreaded song is over as people come to the dance floor ]problem..

Right now I need to carry two boards to get all that I want for a performance....The G70 sure could make this easier for me.

If I wasn't spoiled by how good the harmonizer is on the DisCover 5, I would only still need my G1000.

I am looking forward to Hank and Don's comments about Hank's new G70..

The debate will go on...and on...and on! What's right is what's right for each person. I DON'T use MP3s or MIDI files of any kind. My choice is to use left handed bass and either a real drummer or arranger drums only 40%, arranger function 30% and classical guitar or piano with no assistance at all 30%. That's my choice and it works for me. But, I'm not an entertainer, and the kind of jobs I do are right for this approach. This is my way of dealing with the demands of the marketplace. It works...I turn down a lot more work than I take.

This approach may change over time, but right now, this is what I do to keep working and feel good about the music I'm playing.

Russ

All valid points from the pros....I agree with all approaches because I personally use them all specified above including recording SMF files to Mp3's for backing tracks....but not the same percentage MIX every gig....all the methods mentioned should be in your "TOOL BOX" at the ready to entertain depending on what specific needs arise in any one gig.....you need to be proficient in all of them & be ready to utilize them at a moments notice in order to survive in this business as a pro vs a weekend warrior.....its all about "MAKING MUSIC" my friends in whatever way possible with whatever gear you want....bottom line is, having a good sound
FOR THE PEOPLE!!!



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-03-2006).]

Anything that continues to blur the line between arrangers and SMFs is a good thing, IF........ it adds more options to playback, not less.

One of the coolest features I've read about, but not seen yet is (and I'm sorry, I don't remember which arranger has this feature) the ability to switch off your SMF's drum track, and have the arranger play mode for the drums, WHILE your SMF is playing. Brilliant!!

This makes it easy to replace poorly made SMF drum tracks (unfortunately the rule rather than the exception) with your choice of patterns and fills, and, hopefully (not sure if the keyboard does this) record the performance to your sequencer to edit the SMF.........

What would any of YOU like to see help blur the SMF/Arranger line.........??

Well Said!!

Some may not want to admit it is cheating but that is what it is. Most of the time, a one man band keyboard player is cheating not because we are born cheaters, but the demands of today's market place and the financial benefit of cheating makes it much better for us to make a living out of a one man band set-up. It is also good entertainment for people who come to see us. They love to see how one person is doing all that.

If you look at it from just an entertainment point of view, it really does not matter if you use midis, arranger mode, mp3s or just standing up in front of the equipment pretending to play, just as long as you keep your fans happy, dancing and wanting to come back for more.

If you do have some type of musical integraty, you can use midi files and actually play something all at the same time.

One example is while the midi file is playing, you can split the keyboard so you have one sound in the left hand and another in the right and play those while the file is playing.
So you can play a bass in the left and piano in the right and play along with the midi file.


It is not a question of whether midi files are better than arranger mode, but how well do you use those modes.

IF you are a professional entertainer, then it should be all about the audience, not YOU. If you are an ARTIST, then it should be about YOU. Can an artist be entertaining? Of course, but that is not the ARTIST's main objective, as opposed to the PROFESSIONAL ENTERTAINER (Brittny and Madonna are entertainers, Winton Marsallis is an artist). Can one be both? Yes, but not at the same time. Being a musician, I am not your typical audience so the following is mostly irrelevant; however, I would not walk across the street to see a guy playing an arranger OR midi files whereas I would shower, shave, dress up, and drive across town, to see a good jazz trio (with or without a vocalist). The audiences that are attracted to a OMB/arranger player/SMF "cheater", are usually the same ones that would be entertained by a good DJ. Don't be offended by this, I own two arranger keyboards which I use mostly for composition and arrangement (also "cheating") but have never played out using one. This doesn't mean that I don't clearly see the advantages of arrangers (and SMF) in OMB applications but I still believe that it's main advantage over the DJ is the visual effect (in that sense, the DJ is more "honest"). Of course, I'm really off-topic here anyway as the original question/debate was style-mode vs. SMF. The real answer; WHO GIVES A S---? Certainly not a clueless audience.

Peace,

chas

I like that chas... I have always felt that I am a MIDI artist - I create and perform with my own MIDI files exclusively using my own unique arrangements of popular and original music. My canvas is the music technology at hand and every single note is a product of my imagination and ability. I'm equally capable of making music with nothing more than a basic piano or keyboard and would probably command the same fee and respect as an artist, but since I can imagine full arrangements in my head I choose to use technology to share that sound with my audience.

If you or anyone else would "not walk across the street" to see me perform with my midi files that would be your loss. I play for hundreds of people nightly and the people that hire me could easily afford to hire a trio or whatever musical act they think would entertain the most people... they chose me. If they are willing to bet their business on the quality of my music, don't you think it's worth gambling a few precious minutes of your time to see why?

If I had the time...I would travel to Hilton Head to see you...

I would even travel to Valrico to see Chas...

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 07-04-2006).]

If you or anyone else would "not walk across the street" to see me perform with my midi files that would be your loss. I play for hundreds of people nightly and the people that hire me could easily afford to hire a trio or whatever musical act they think would entertain the most people... they chose me. If they are willing to bet their business on the quality of my music, don't you think it's worth gambling a few precious minutes of your time to see why?

Ditto. I've traveled all over the east coast and central U.S. to see dozens of OMB entertainers, and every one of them was worth the time and expense to see, hear and talk with. I had hoped to see Esh and Vern on my last trip, but conflicts and time constraints made it impossible. Hopefully, I will get to see them sometime in the near future.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Though I perform primarily (90%) in arranger mode, I too will utilize custom pre-sequenced midi backing tracks for certain songs, to free me up to play in a more traditional solo piano style, and/or to allow me to step out into to the audience to sing directly to them.

Play solo keyboard, play in a band with other live musicians, or play in arranger mode and/or utilize midi backing tracks, but more importantly, be honest with your audience to gain their respect. The type of CHEATING entertainers I hate are the ones who deceive their audience into thinking they're actually playing (on the keyboard)the part/parts played by a pre-recorded backing track.

Scott

Scott, who cares what the "entertainer" is playing...Guess what? The audience doesn't care..

I play 100% of the time with SMF's..Sometimes I will play only to my ears[headphones] while a SMF is playing, if what I am doing will not necessarily improve what the audience hears.

Using the DisCover 5 has made this easier for me, showing chord changes a measure ahead, while playing sequences.

Scott since you are "honest"...do you have a sign hanging out front that says you are not playing the parts that the audience hears, but the machine is playing all those nice "backing tracks" in arranger mode?

Or maybe, you make an announcement before you perform explaining that what the people hear is not you playing..

Of course you don't!!! And why? Because it really doesn't matter.. You are there to entertain, not to be "honest"...

I dont know if I belong here, but, I do some keyboard but mostly guitar. I use a midjay and kick pedals. I dont think you using any arranger or whatever you use is the to me the important thing for the listeners and the dancers is when they get on the dance floor, words and music is the all thing, but, the most important is the bass lines. When you dance you feel the bass and step to the rythm and the bass makes all possible.For me styles is the way to go, but if you can get the bass from midi or wherever you get your music, concentrate on the bass....JOE

Scott go to Disney and watch the shows.......most all use lip syncing technics..........but guess what people all leave with a smile because they were entertained ....its a new world out there for the musician my friends utilize all the tools available in any way you can......bottom line is to make music for people ........sad truth, purist will go by the wayside as the future progresses, hop on board the musical train now its a new da, "All-Aboard"!!!! .

That's kind of the problem. If we continue a long the parth we are going there will be no "musical train". Entertainers with no traditional musical skills would be all that is needed. Musicians would not be known in the future.

What a sad future for music. It is all about entertainment.

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 07-04-2006).]

ESH, I have two very good friends with beautiful summer homes on Hilton Head Island. I also used to (before we moved to Hawaii) fly (my C310F) into Hilton Head Airport for my 2X/year golf school with these same friends (more social than instructive as none of us ever improved). I still visit them now that I have moved to Florida and will most definitely drop in if you happen to be gigging during the time that I am there. Of course, there isn't much to choose from as HH is not exactly a mecca for live entertainment (but then I'm usually there off-season). Then we can continue this deba..ah, discussion in person. In the meantime, keep on midi-swinging.

Oh, and Fran, don't you dare come to Valrico, it's nice and peaceful down here .

Peace,

chas

Chas is one of my favorites, and I completely understand what he means by making a distinction between being a musician and an entertainer. I admire some entertainers, but just don't "have it", myself.

It's also a matter of taste. Frankly, some "entertainers" are boarderline irritating to me, and have little or no musical taste or ability, in my estimation. Several are my friends and work all the time. Good for them, if they are fulfilled, getting paid well and are satisfying owners and audiences.

In my offtime, I listen to musicians; rarely OMB performers. But, that's my choice and it's no more than that.

Frankly, if I could only work with an arranger, I'd probably give up...I just wouldn't feel fulfilled as a musician. It is the complex, unspoken interplay between players of equal ability and commitment that hits my "on" button. My relationship with my Ketron is a complex, "love/hate" one.

My satisfaction come from producing high-end film scores for industrial films. Nigel and Tony Mads have heard examples...boring stuff, I'm sure for 90% of you. Of course, the satisfaction comes from also writing the script, camera work, animation, if needed, and editing. I never post work because this is an arranger forum, and film scores sound a little "funky" without the graphics, voice-overs, etc.

But again, that's just me.

Whatever works for each of you is GREAT!


Russ

CHEATING ----- If you feel you are cheating, then you ARE cheating. If you do not, then enjoy.

John C.


[This message has been edited by bruno123 (edited 07-04-2006).]

To me, CHEATING means to deceive someone ... If I am playing an arranger keyboard and 'deceiving' someone into thinking I am playing the drums and all the other sounds, then my audience is asleep ... HOWEVER - I will NOT pretend to be playing a solo when I am not !!!

And I would gladly 'cross the street' to hear a good OMB - heck I went to NJ to hear Dnj ... and DJs may have talent, and may be entertainers, but NO I do NOT equate a DJ to a OMB !!!!!
t.

Tony .....I remember it well, it was great to meet you & your lovely wife at my dance club............your front row table is always ready Gumba!!

Ok Donny, if that's the case, you better watch out, as I suppose , not only musicians, but singers & entertainers too, may all become replaced by animatrons. Pretty scary thought.

Pirates of the Caribbean:


Country Bear Jamboree:


[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 07-04-2006).]

Uhmmmm....hope that applies to marriage as well .


...just kidding, just kidding; geez, lighten up.

chas

If you lot are there to entertain then don't you think it's about time you learnt how to play the songs instead of shoving in a disk and thinking well my audience are a bunch of thick people who know nothing about music so they won't know or care if I'm not playing.
Your audience wants to be entertained and they expect to listen to the performer, so why don't the fakers get off of their idle butts and earn their money for a change instead of just buying midi files and miming.
Feel free to attack me on this I always look forward to a good laugh on here
Just remember all the Elvis impersonators will look like this in a few years time hehe





[This message has been edited by Craig_UK (edited 07-07-2006).]

Chas, the last time I applied that to my marriage I lost both my keyboards.

John C.

I might go through USMC boot camp at Parris Island SC AGAIN just to get close enough to Hilton Head I can see Esh in action !!!!!! Well, not really, but ...

Esh, do any of those jarheads swim down from PI to HH to catch your show?