My KN7000 will someday need to be replaced, as you all know. I have decided to execute a preemptive strike and go to software. I have ordered the Muse Receptor http://www.museresearch.com/ .

After reading threads from Frank L, TAPAS,AJ, Rikki, and others, I think I am aware of the many problems with this approach. Nonetheless, in the meantime my arranger is alive and well.

Until such time the developers start making applications more suitable for the performing musican, I will endeavor to learn this approach, as many of you think this is the way of the future.

I am not up to speed on many basics of MIDI manipulation of modules, and would ask you good people for some help.

My Receptor is coming with a 160 gig hd, and 1.5 gig of RAM and can handle many major VST's like Colossus,Ivory,Garriton, etc.

Eventhough heavy, my arranger has extensive(i think), MIDI implementation . I can use Kontact maybe and achieve the ability to change banks and patches to use with my KB ?, or should I use a dedicated controller too. CME maybe ?

MIDI playback should be superior if I load a GM soundset. Maybe Garriton Bandstand ?

Superior lead instruments. Colossus ?

The bottom line is I will have to get through a large learning curve and put up with some drawbacks, but I need to know what VST's I would need to be somewhat compatible with an arranger style of playing, and sometimes playing over MIDI's in a performance setting.

As most of you know, Frank L is recuperating from his hip surgery, and he offered to help me later.

Thank you in advance for any help you can give me.

Bernie

Bernie, I am happy to see you move towards a software based arranger system....you will never look back. You will be very surprised at the very high quality of the sound and flexibility of such a system. Yes there are drawbacks....large learning curve....control surface not as good. This is all outweighted by the high quality sound, especially the emulation of acoustic instruments. No hardware based system comes anywhere close to these sounds. Talk about super articulation voices (SAV)....well I have used such voices for years....it is called keyswitching in my software world, e.g., keyswitching from growl to breathy sax, up bow down bow violin and so on.

There will be times where you will through up your hands and say why did I do this but if you stay with it you will be rewarded big time.

Thanks Frank
I guess the first question is the necessary software to start off with.

Hi Bernie
The KN7000 Midi spec will never be as good as a dedicated Midi controller, but if it does what you want, then it will save you money by not having to buy a separate controller. (You can always get one later if need be)
The learning curve will not be quite as bad as a full computer based system, as you will not need to worry about the computer side of things, as the Receptor acts just like a hardware expander, but you are not tied to the instruments the manufacture gives you. (If the facility is available I would get a larger screen to use with it, as it will make life a lot easier)
BTW I started off using hardware instruments (Mainly Organs) and then moved on to a computer software based system, the flexibility being brilliant, but the amount of wires and setup can be rather trying.
A few years ago I moved over to a Wersi Abacus, (A normal looking Arranger Keyboard, but controlling an internal Windows computer, so you don’t notice its there) which has allowed me to have all the advantages of a Computer based system, with the ease of use of an Arranger Keyboard, and I can say without any doubt, that there is NO WAY I would ever go back to either a pure Hardware or Computer based system.
A tip I can give you however is that if you cant seem to get it to do what you want, don’t stick at it, but have a break from it, (Make a Cuppa, Have a beer or whatever) and when you come back you usually find you can sort out the problem relatively easily.
Hope this helps.

Bill

Thank you Frank and Bill for your encouraging replies. Does anyone know about the Kontact format ? What should I get first ?

Bernie

Hey Frank, How are you doing?

Are you getting around already?

Hope everything is alright..


Speaking of soft arranger..I recently started to use the Roland DisCover5 on the job[a non arranger keyboard, but a great sequence playback unit with the best harmonizer I ever used]..
Yesterday I set up control keys to use OMB7[arranger software].
I am using Hyper Canvas for the soft synth..
It looks like I can get by with this set up...
I also have Jammer Live ready if I need it..

Fran, I am still on a cane but getting around. The good news is there is a whole lot less pain. It is the first break in pain during the last 3 years. It will be nice once I can again resume normal activities after about 3 months.

It looks like Fran is getting closer and closer to a software based system. Who would have thought?

Bernie Kontakt is considered by many to be the top of the line sampler. There are some issues with it but NI is hard at work to resolve them. There are other good samplers as well, GigaStudio, etc. So it is a matter of checking out the various samplers and how you may wish to use them. I use two:

Kontakt for lead or melody voices
Bandstand for my auto accompaniment

If you can go with a little lower quality of sound then you could use one sampler for both lead and auto accompaniment. I say this since for auto accompaniment you need a sampler which quickly loads instruments but at the expense of slightly lower quality of sound. It needs to quickly respond to program and effect changes.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 03-06-2006).]

Bernie,
in my opinion (amateur at home playing for myself), Hypercanvas provides a very quick and acceptable solution to GM/GS/midi file player/simple accompaniment needs. Driven by my own keyboard's styles, the sounds it provides have "freshened" my sound palette.

Its sound quality is inferior to more modern approaches, (on the other hand it has a more "dirty" sound and that may be of benefit sometimes) but I find that it is very quick to understand and tweak, and the interface is (again IMHO) flawless.

Along the same lines, HQ Orchestral is a very good solution foe orchestral pieces with very good orchestra instruments and Superquartet casrries a good selection of everyday Piano, Guitar, Bass and Drums voices (some with velocity-triggered affects such as slides etc) with better quality than Hypercanvas provides.

Drum and Bass Rig has a fair selection of basses and drum sets, quality easily surpassing everything Hypercanvas has to offer, but they are WAY more demanding on the CPU.
(Two instances of hypercanvas play at 15-20% on my CPU, add Drum & Bass rig and skyrocket to 60%, just substituting the bassline and the drum channel.)

Key Rig has a selection of piano sounds, (adequate IMHO), a simple? (never tried to operate it) synth, a Hammond module and a GM module which sounds crisper than Hypercanvas but IMHO lacks the "integrity" of the Hypercanvas. (Hypercanvas sounds tend to complement each other in a mix, they seem like a "collection" of sounds rather than a "bunch" of sounds thrown together. But it is good.

Bandstand is supposedly superb, carries very big samples but...... it doesn't sound like it to me, either by headphones or with speakers. (Others here share the same opinion).
Also, it responds to GM program changes, but it takes A LOT of time to change. A simple change of style in my setup, takes maybe 20 seconds to completely change all the instruments in bandstand, and since you probably will play it live, it won't do, I think. Faster (more dedicated) setups will give you faster responses but not "point and click" fast. Some loading will be required.

Luxonic Ravity is a synth module with very good capabilities which exceed my knowledge of synths by 95%. It has a good selection of basses and synth leads and other synth sounds that sound very good to me, but is probably geared towards modern music (house, techno etc).

The B4 Hammond demo I have heard and played sounds very good, but for me to even attempt criticizing that sound would be immoral, since I havent even seen a live B3, let alone play one. Others here know better of the real thing and the softsynth also.

Of the others, Kontakt and the more expensive sound libraries like Garritan and such, I know nothing.
Hope it helps somehow.
Please share with us what you find about the Receptor.
Theodore

PS if you manage to take advantage of the style buttons, variation buttons etc on your arranger it will be a godsend. you just continue playing in a platform you know and take advantage of the better sounds where available.

NI, realize the issues with respect to loading times, etc. with Bandstand and will provide a fix in the future. When ... who knows. I happen to like the sounds of Bandstand but for me I would like to have some continuity with Kontakt and Bandstand. It would be nice to beable to use instruments from kontakt in Bandstand. NI will take a look at this. In addition, Bandstand may beable to load other GM/GS/XG wavetables in the future. Some fairly good wavetables include SGM180, Papel 2006, etc.

So in closing I hold out hope for a very good quality system from NI. I think they got caught in rapid grow of new products and can't keep up with the required fixes and customer service.

As I have said many times the feeling is amazing to set down and play a great jazz piece with a Bardstown/Steinway Piano, Scarbee Bass, Bardstown Jazz Guitar and dirty keyswitched Sax (VRSound, VSL, etc., Colossus Drums and so on. Oh does this sound so good!!!

By the way, Colossus is a very good GM wavetable plus many other high quality lead voices. Not fast enough to load for midi or style files in a live situation. It may be fast enough to use in a coffee shop, book store or high class night spot jazz session. It just depends on your application.

If you stay with it and use your imagination you will always and I mean always find a better sounding system when compared with any workstation or arranger keyboard.

Thank you, Theodore, for the most enlightening responce. I was hoping more from Bandstand. There is some freeware bundled with Receptor, and will get my feet wet there first. I am hoping for faster changes if I preload multies in RAM. Also, there is a 30 day trial period on the prestige plug-ins.

Frank mentioned a compromise on quality for style sounds, and better quality for lead. I am sure he is right. At any rate the fun shall begin Thursday, and will report my findings as I go along.

Thanks for you help
Bernie

Frank
I was under the impression one could,e.g., have Colussus residing in HD, and save some preset configurations from it for lead voices without streaming direct from hardrive. Am I missing something ?

CME's new VX controllers may have some kind of style/arranger system built-in along with a new type of plug-in synth architecture. Release date is May. I'm keeping an eye on that.

While I intend to be on the forward edge of the softsynth arranger frontier, I also intend to have parachutes galore.

For the moment I am concentrating on turning my large library of MIDI files into MP3's and finding ways to play them back conveniently so I can pull off gigs with the least amount of equipment and hassle. To create the MP3 files I am using a combination of my Yamaha 9000 Pro and Colossus at home, which sounds awesome. I have bought a Music Pad Pro with v4.0 (it now plays MP3's as well as displaying music) and a new Kawai ES4 piano... I intend to gig with just these two primary components plus amplification in the next month or so, reducing my cartage and setup time to scant amounts. From there I can add my Acer Ferrari laptop, which would give me the option of using Reason live and/or using softsynths and OMB for a live arranger system. If the CME VX controller turns out to be a hot item, I can add one of those later too.

The live softsynth-arranger system, or combination of components that equates to that, that I would feel comfortable with on stage isn't quite there but I feel it is close, so I am developing a stage system that can grow in functionality while giving me rock-solid live performance options and presenting the lowest equipment profile. On top of that, it's gotta look good too!

Best wishes Frank... your efforts in softsynth arrangers are creating a legacy.

Colossus always streams from HD, and the faster the HD the better (7200 RPM and up). But it loads the initial attack samples first, then the rest of the sample streams from HD. This is how you can play a sample that is 20GB long when your computer only has 2GB of RAM, but that initial attack sample takes time to load... too much time currently. You can load a set of sounds that you'll be using but changing those sounds live is a problem.



[This message has been edited by Esh (edited 03-07-2006).]

I recently tried out a setup using my laptop, my P250, OMB and HyperSonic 2. At first this didn't work very well, I had some problems with dropouts, inconsistent playback speeds and weird midi behavior. I first thought it was my laptop that lacked the juice for this application, but it was actually due to a registry configuration for the MIDI-Yoke driver. I found a fix at the MIDIOX website, and I now it works flawless! The sounds of HyperSonic 2 are great! And the program changes are almost instant! I'm currently looking into building patch maps to be able to use all the great sounds of hypersonic from OMB and sequencer software, and not just the GM bank, don't get me wrong, the GM bank sounds awsome, but there are many other patches that sound better in HyperSonic!
If I get this setup up and running, this will replace my live arranger setup!

Doc-Z

I wud think that that is highly unlikely (although I am not familiar with the KN7000).
The KN7000 is only 61 keys as well, so you would not be able to use lower keys for fills, variations, stop,etc.
OMB can't be customized to accept various MIDI control messages, just notes, or computer keyboard key press.

Hi Bernie,
first up, Frank, it's great to see you back, and so quickly.

Bernie, what an interesting looking bit of gear. I haven't quite worked out what it does.
Is it basically a soundmodule (computer based) that uses vst's for sounds , instead of having inbuilt rom sounds ( ie like our keyboards)?
If it's only a soundmodule, will you also require a computer to run a sequencer to play/record midifiles?
& if you want to use it as realtime arranger keyboard setup, you'll also need software along the lines of OMB or Live Styler.

I ended up using a laptop/omb software and an assortment of soundfonts, after I sold my kn7. Unfortunately I blew mp laptop up, a few weeks back, so until I either get it repaired or replaced, I'm using my old win 98 laptop with my Clavinova or Ketron SD1 as a soundsource for OMB.

Be interesting to see if loading time of sounds will be an issue as far as using it for styles ie are all the sounds in a particular bank ready for use immediately, or are they loaded as required by the program changes.ie a style requires program change 49 strings, does it have to be loaded individually,
or can you have a whole bank of up to 128 sounds preloaded , ready for use.
That would make it very useful.
I've been toying with the idea of using my sd1 as a controller, plus using it's styles, but using external sounds. I was going to try triggering the soundfonts, but didn't get a chance after it blew up.
If your module could be used, ie no loading time issues, that could open up all sorts of possibilities.

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bernie9:
[b]

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 03-07-2006).]

Hi Fran,
I ended up getting a 18 key numeric keypad for omb. Haven't quite been game to stick it on to my Clavinova ( just in case I mark the veneer), but I have considered sticking it onto the sd1 if I start using it as a controller. Works really well. I was able to assign 14 of the 18 keys to functions ie intro's , fills etc saved trying to find a spot for the laptop on top of the piano.
best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fran Carango:
[B]Yesterday I set up control keys to use OMB7[arranger software].
I

Rikki,
you could try to replace the rubber feet of the keypad with some transparent silicone-blob like things that are usally found under glass on tables. Can't describe them better. they provide a lot of friction and sometimes the stick lightly on the surface they touch. Or try to use the chewing gum like substance they use to stick posters to the wall.

Starkeeper,
my "idea" is to actually use the KN7000 styles (hence all the style, variation and such buttons will work) but substituting the internal sounds with the sounds of the Receptor. This will surely work. I doit with the Casio at home. The other thing you describe requires
1) the KN actually sending some data to the MIDI OUT when you press a control button (style, start-stop etc) and
2) the style player (OMB) acually recognising them for what they are and react accordingly. (pretty tough). Casio doesn't do this, but I have never actually looked in the event editor of a sequencer, to confirm.

Bernie,
please share us what you think about the receptor when you get it. I believe you will be the first here to have one.

Hi Rikki
From what I can gather, Receptor is like my Wersi Abacus in that if the sounds/Styles etc, are assigned to a button or preset, they are loaded into Ram at start up, (The Wersi OAS instruments have no Rom Banks) obviously the more instruments you want direct access too, the more Ram you need.
Also on my Abacus, all Buttons and controls output Midi codes, so that I can just use the learn function of the VST (Which with Wersi OAS is loaded direct into the Abacus) to assign what buttons I need, so I would check to see if your Ketron will do the same, rather then having to use a separate keypad.
With most manufactures now combining computers and hardware controllers together it should be interesting to see what’s new at Frankfurt this year.
Enjoy.

Bill

Hi Bill,
so you think that the sounds do get loaded on startup , rather than have to be streamed across like some of the samples have to be when using computer softsynths.

My ketron can use samples also ( limited size though) and it can also load them on start up.

I think the only way I can see what the ketron transmits is to connect it to a p.c. sequencer, and see if it sends all the program & contol changes required to run a soundmodule using ketron styles. Module would have to be a very flexible, though .

Sorry, the reference to the keypad was for One Man Band realtime arranger system.
I've got 2 arrangers,
my Ketron keyboard,
& my OMB software system, which unfortunately at the moment is running using keyboard sounds instead of my softsynths.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by abacus:
[B]Hi Rikki
From what I can gather, Receptor is like my Wersi Abacus in that if the sounds/Styles etc, are assigned to a button or preset, they are loaded into Ram at start up.

Hi Trident,
suppose I could try something like Blu Tac (it's like the chewing gum for posters you mentioned haa haa).

I don't think the kn7 will make a great controller in as far as using the internal styles and using the buttons for variations fills etc . It sends out too many messages via midi. It used to totally lock up my friends Cubase sequencer with too many controller messages, total clog up. Unless some of the controllers etc can be filtered out, I have my doubts it would work.
I think maybe Bernie is looking to the future ie life without a kn7.
Reason I ended up selling mine was because if anything ever happened to it, I would have had no way of replacing it, so I didn't want to keep spending time creating styles etc, just in case one day it was gone & wouldn't be replaceable.
One good reason for using a software arranger like OMB, even if Jos doesn't create a version 9 of OMB , it is still totally useable as it is, plus there's always Live Styler & the dozens of software programs created by the psr users.

It will be interesting to see how I go with the sd1. I know I can turn certain control messages off, just depends whether it also transmits the required ones.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by trident:
[B]Rikki,

You are right, Rikki. Whereas I would like to incorporate the Receptor with the 7000, tommorrow I will see what it does as a master. I am already thinking about the new CME controller that is coming out.

I play three different ways; styles, playing and singing over midi, and in a non-arranger setting with a 20 pc band. I know the midifiles are going to be superior. I also know that I can forge together some awsome band and orchestral layers with the Receptor. Two out of three ain't bad until I can figure out the midi configuration or software apps for styles.

Thanks to all for the tips.
Bernie

Hi Bernie,
one thing I was sorry that I never did before selling my KN7, was record backing track midifiles and Wav files ( rather than mp3's)
of some of my favourite tunes. Wav's would have left me with something to play along to.

Midifile would have left me with the option of revoicing them some time down the track with a new soundsource.

Wav file would have given me the original kn7 backing for the song, just in case revoicing the midifile didn't work out as well as I'd hoped ( sometimes drums can be a bother to revoice). I would have then had the option of converting them to an mp3 if required.

That CME controller sounds interesting.

Be fascinated to hear how you go with the receptor.

best wishes
Rikki

So Bernie, any news?

Hi Trident

Well it's here, and am in awe of it's capabilities. It can handle 57 VST's, and play simultaneously on 16 channels, and has the capacity for 16,000 banks of registrations.

There is no question about the Receptor. I now have to learn to use a controller keyboard ,to setup zones for splits, etc.

The sounds out of the box through my Bose PAS are great, but, they are all synth textures. I have to register and hookup to my pc to get the $400 free VST's . Then, I can go for the good stuff for a 30 day trial.

I have to play for a funeral,so haven't had time to go into it much today.

Rikki,
Can you elaborate on the numeric keypad. Is it wireless? Can you connect this with a keyboard connected as well?
Starkeeper

You know Rikki you can convert those MP3s back into WAV file format if that would help you. Quite a few apps will do that for you including even Winamp freeware.

Hi Nigel,
thank you , but too late,
I didn't think to record kn backing sequences in any format. Wav , mp3 or even midifile. I usually just play in arranger mode to entertain myself.

All the other keyboards I've had are replaceable, with newer versions, ( should I feel the need (haa haa)
didn't take into account the kn7 was the last of the line, and the odd recorded backing sequence would have been nice.

Only reason I mentioned Wav format, is , my understanding is that it's the highest quality of all the audio formats?

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Starkeeper,
it's usb.
below are some details from a while back.
I haven't used it since I fried my laptop, a few weeks back. I'm getting a new computer shortly.
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/012758.html

Don't know if this link will work, but it's similar sort of thing to mine
http://tinyurl.com/mvwkj

The company I got mine from is no longer trading on ebay. There again for $15 , I'm not particulary worried.

You can probably get good quality ones from computer stores, but I didn't want to spend the money, just in case it didn't work.
best wishes
Rikki





[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 04-10-2006).]

Oh. It's a USB. Does Windows recognize it as a keypad as soon as you plug it in, or do you have to configure it somehow?
Starkeeper

Hi Starkeeper,
I'm pretty sure with my xp laptop I just plugged it in & it worked.

I'll try it on my old xp desktop later & let you know how I go.

best wishes
Rikki

I have Windows XP at home.
Starkeeper

Hi Starkeeper,
my desktop xp , automatically recognized it.
The only setting up will be in OMB itself ie
assign which keys on the keypad do whatever function.

Out of the 18 keys I've got on my pad, only a couple of them appear to be useless..

best wishes
Rikki