Yesterday's job was at a location where I've been performing for nearly 5 years, a well established senior center in the Highlandtown section Baltimore. From the time I fired up the sysetem until I stopped nearly 3 hours later, there was always folks on the dancefloor, and the applause after each song came from everyone in the room.

At the end of the job, dozens of people came up and told me how much they enjoyed the music. Many said the songs sounded so clear and wonderful, and the volume level was just perfect.

The same comments were also heard last week from dozens of individuals at a 50th wedding anniversary party I played. The irony of this party was I was performing for about 100 people, of which I only knew 10 at the most. Many were retired, most were over age 70, and though the host said there wasn't a prayer of anyone dancing, a dozen couples were on the dance-floor most of the evening.

The Bose PAS is definitely a keeper, next week I'll harness the cables into a neat package and it will be my primary system. The Logitech Z-5500 will be my backup, and the Barbetta Sona 32-Cs will be sold.

Again, a special thanks to Uncle Dave and Eddie (Btweengigs) Shoemaker for their help.

Gary

Gary, are you saying you got more compliments than usual? You think people knew something was better? Have you ever used z5500 with them?

------------------
Me Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

My PAS has been on gigs for the last two months and there was favorable (almost unanymous)comments from the git-go.

People DO notice the difference...not only in quality of sound but in dispersion throughout the room. So far, everyone in every room I have used them is in the "sweet spot". No more complaints about being too loud up front and not loud enough in the back.

The Bose PAS offers up to 99 presets on two channels. The presets are an EQ thing designed to enhance different types of instruments, mics and personal preferences. Experimentation is the only way to decide which preset you like best.

Unlike conventional systems there are no seperate controls for effects. You can use a mixer or processor if you feel the need...but I haven't found it to be necessary and, in fact, like the pure, unadulterated sound it puts out.

He hasn't mentioned it here on the forum, but Gary is the only guy I know with a complaint. In spite of his glowing assessment of the PAS he doesn't like having to lift the heaviest part of the system: the 35 lb power base. What a wimp.

I think he is really upset because he bought another van to carry around his gear. Now, with the PAS, he could pack it all into a VW bug.

Eddie




[This message has been edited by btweengigs (edited 06-23-2005).]

Bill,

No complaints ever, reguardless of the system I used. Always get lots of complements from my audiences. However, with the Bose, the only thing I heard were complements and lots of them from everyone in the room. And, as Eddie said, everyone is sitting in the sweet spot because of the way the system covers the entire room equally. There has never been a system available that does this. Nothing even comes close. The Z-5500 is an excellent system, especially for the money, and that's why it will be my sole backup system. The Bose will be my primary sound system for all jobs--even for the larger assisted living and nursing home jobs.

Cheers,

Gary

Just a quick...me too. I have been using the Bose PAS as the sole PA system in my cafe for the past year. Individuals and groups ranging from 1 to 6 vocalists have used the system and have only gotten raves from from both the musicians and the audience.

I do have one advantage over most of the rest of you in that I rarely have to move it, however when I did have to transport the system (for a couple of outside jobs) the set up and take down took minutes and the 35lb base never seem to be a problem. BTW we have limited the use of the PAS to either vocalists, CDs or acoustic/acoustic electric guitars, although we do have a single bass sub, the only bass that has gone through the system, so far has been a mic'ed stand up.

Art

Hi Gary,

You've peaked my interest in the Bose PAS system. Which one did you get? I'm going to run down to Guitar Center this morning and take a look at them. Right now I'm using a Yamaha 640 PA head and 2 JBL speakers. It does the job but Bose is lightyears ahead in the audio field. I've long been a fan of their home products. I enjoyed the songs on your sight very much.

Cheers,

Joe


------------------
Songman55

I have no interest in one PAS, I have auditioned it on stage in a live situaton ........bottom line its not Stereo unless you have TWO Units & Subs..
I need the sound seperation in my large music performances...two complete PAS units = $5000.00
and I would still need another smaller sound system for smaller gigs which gives me much more versatility.....although it sounds good & is inovative its not for everyones needs.


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-25-2005).]

Joe,

I purchased the standard unit with a single subwoofer. It does a lot more than I would have anticipated, and yesterday's job was another great example. I performed at a large retirement center, one that has a high stage at the end of a 100-foot long by 40-foot wide hall with high ceilings. The stage is just over 3 feet above the floor and although the room has lousy accoustics, the Bose filled the room with music, all of which was at the same volume level. Everyone raved about the music, the dancefloor was active and I had several positive comments from indivduals who said everything sounded so clear and crisp. I've run MP3s through a single channel and the results were excellent, despite the fact that the stero was combined into a single channel.

For my purposes, I don't need a pair of them, and the single seems to work just fine when everything is properly tuned--and that's the key to success with any sound system.

Good Luck,

Gary

And besides that,unless you are sitting right in the "sweet spot",the stereo effect is lost anyway.

Too each his own regarding your sound systems.......but with one speaker you might as well chuck the Panning effects out the window....I just dont buy the MONO vs STEREO thing....without seperation my ears & audiences tell me what sounds right, its something I wont compromise. But I wish everyone good luck with whatver you choose......just try it, and play it live before you buy it!

My comments on the Stereo verses Mono..
At home ,everyone of us wants stereo.It just sounds right..
On stage , to me ,I feel the same...I want stereo..
If you do not seperate your speakers too far from one another[10-12 feet], you the player will be in sound heaven, and your audience will not suffer from lost of stereo image..It will be just like having a real acoustic band on stage, you will hear every instrument..
When the spacing of the speakers becomes too wide[trying to cover a large room without enough speaker cabinets], then you will lose that natural on stage[real band]sound...you may as well go mono...
When I have a choice it is a no brainer for me...Stereo...You have to please the performer first...without losing the best sound for your audience...Like I said ,Stereo cabinets 10-12 feet apart..

Unfortunately, when I play with the band "Just in Time"..our stages are big and the speakers are 20-25 feet apart,,worse yet ,they are out front,and we only hear our monitors......so we go mono...
When we play the big casinos, all we get is in ear monitors, and they run mono thru out the massive sound systems[$250,000]..
What a treat when I use my solo set up and run stereo,speakers 2-3 feet behind me and 10 feet apart..talk about the "Sweet spot"..

It is easy to see why Donny is spoiled with stereo over mono..
Uncle Dave was spoiled too, I think he just made concessions for the times.....
Well I got to get ready for tonight's mono stage ....

I have to agree with Donny here. I too auditioned the Bose PAS 'live' on more than one gig, and I decided NOT to buy it. If I could afford to dedicate it for my vocals only, I'd probably buy it, but I gotta have the impact of 'full stereo' when utilizing arranger kb combo & big band styles. Though I'm glad to hear that Gary Diamond has been able to make the PAS work with his PSR3000, I'm still not convinced (yet) I'll be able to get it to sound good with my Tyros, as a big part of the problem may have to do with the incompatibility of Yamaha keyboard sounds (which rely on stereo efx), but when mixed to mono, produces efx phase cancellation, and a terribly thin anemic sound. Curious to discover exactly how this is solved via EQ adjustment on the PAS as my PAS EQ adjustment tweaking didn't yield acceptable Tyros piano improvement. - Scott

Scott,

When you tried out the PAS the current OS and presets were not available. Things have changed, particularly the presets, which now have special EQ filters for keyboards.

As for the piano sound, the 3000s grand piano does suffer to some degree from phase cancelation, however, as I posted earlier, that problem was solved by utilizing the GM grand piano, which is not stereo sampled, then adding some effects. The modified GM grand piano sounds great.

As stated by Fran, the wonderful sound of stereo is thoroughly enjoyed by the entertainer, and those individuals who happen to be within the stereo sweet spot--a 90 degree cone of sound directly between the speakers. Those folks outside that cone, particularly those on the extreme right and left, don't benefit from the crossover effect because of the sound dispersion.

I believe, IMHO, the major benefit using the PAS is not only the excellent sound quality provided by the system, but additionally, the equality of sound dispersion throughout the venue. The audience gets to hear what you hear, and everyone hears it at the same volume. The person sitting 10 feet away is not having his or her head blown off, while the person in the back of the room is having trouble hearing the music. Those sitting to the extreme right or left of the system are no longer sitting in a dead zone.

Ironically, the Z-5500 system provides much of the same sound quality, and some of the sound dispersion equality. This may have something to do with the overall number of speakers and their individual frequency response. With the Z-5500 and PSR-3000, the total number of speakers pumping sound into the room is 10, just under half used with the PAS.

One of the other discoveries I made during the initial trial of the PAS is there is a significant difference between using the 3000s L/R-Mono out and firing this into a single channel, V/S using the standard stereo output and firing it into channels #1 and #2. The quality of the sound is improved dramatically, and the overall sounds are much fuller and richer than using the psuedo mono output. Keep in mind that I would prefer stereo as well as the next person. But, IMO, all of the PAS's other attributes far outweigh the sound dispersion of aspects of conventional sound systems.

I agree the PAS is not for everyone, and I imagine that sometime in the near future another sound system manufacturer will likely come out with a stereo version of the PAS that will cost significantly less. This wonderful industry never ceases to amaze me with all of the new, inovative products that it has produced over the past decade. I can vividly recall when the PSR-500 came on the market, and it sold for $600. By today's technological standards, just over a decade later, it's a dinosaur. I believe the same holds true with sound systems. They too will evolve over the new few years, and the transformation will be very dramatic. I just hope I'm around long enough to witness the change.

Cheers,

Gary

[This message has been edited by travlin'easy (edited 06-26-2005).]

Well guys, I got my PAS today morning, and have just tested it at home, at VERY low volume. PAS systems have just arrived to Portugal two weeks ago, and I had the opportunity to audition it extensively at the Bose portuguese distributor. I decided buying it a long time ago. This european version comes with Presets 2.0 already installed. After all I read in the forums, I confess I was expecting a worse piano sound. Although a little inferior to what I get from a good stereo PA, to my hears it doesn't loose that much in quality (with a keyboard specific preset).

I have two questions to my PAS-expert friends:
1) I'm connecting both L AND L/R Tyros' outputs to two PAS channels. This seems to be the way I get slightly better quality and definitely more volume (than just connecting the L/R sum in one jack).
2) I'm still not happy about how the vocals sound. I know, I'm impatient, this is just my first day, and this baby has a reasonable learning curve... I tried to fiddle with the general EQ settings and with the mic settings, but still could not find a really good combination. Question: how do you connect the mic? Through the keyboard, as before, or do you plug it directly to the PAS (using a certain PRESET), losing the harmonizer capabilities in the keyboard?

I was expecting a weaker tendency to feedback. It's true that I'm pushing highs a little too far and that doesn't help, but still.. I'm respecting the distances indicated in the manual (7-8 feet). If you have further tips, useful in achieving the best sound the PAS can give us, it to be great to hear from you.

Thanks in advance,

-- José.

Congratulations on getting the Bose PAS.

You are right about a learning curve...but it is not really too steep.

First things first. And this is important:
To get the benefit of the best sound from your Tyros, mic and PAS, it is recommended that you follow a procedure called "Gain Staging". You only have to do the trickiest part once.

There are three gain settings for the primary channels (1 and 2) and two gain settings for the secondary channels (3 and 4).

To set the gain for the primary channels (1 or 2):

1) Adjust the input gain. Set the trim for the individual channel at the back panel of the PS1 Power Stand. Supply a maximum source signal and watch the LED, when you start to see it flash red, back off slowly on the trim potentiometer until it flashes green again.

2) Adjust the channel gain. The channel gain is controlled via the R1 Remote Control. With the master at zero, set the respective channel gain at 12 o'clock or 6 on the R1 Remote Control. At this point, the LED on the remote will be at the same intensity as the LED on the back panel of the PS1 Power Stand. This is considered optimum gain. The musician can then add a bit more from the R1 Remote Control if he/she requires.

3) Lastly, the R1 Remote Control MASTER knob is the last stage of gain. This knob gives you control over all 4 channels of the PS1 Power Stand.

To set the gain for the secondary channels (3 or 4):

1) Adjust the input gain of the individual channel. These channels do not have indicator LEDs but are optimized for 0dB line level signals, such as from an effects device, mixer or CD player.

2) As above, the R1 Remote Control MASTER knob is the last stage of gain. This knob gives you control over all 4 channels of the PS1 Power Stand.

As for using both channels 1 and 2 for the Tyros, it will give you a richer sound and the benefit of using the harmonizer.

As for presets, try 55 or 57 and let me know how you like them.

Eddie

Eddie pretty much hit the nail on the head. The only thing I might add is to carefully tune the EQ's of both the keyboard and the keyboard's mic settings. This is a very important step in achieving the best sound quality for both the keyboard and your vocals as well.

Good luck,

Gary

If you are not happy with your vocals, my first concern would be the mic EQ (as Gary mentioned), secondly what mic you are using and thirdly, how you are using it.

The PAS is about as feedback resistant as any system I have used, but you still have to be careful not to point the mic directly at the L1s. Bose suggests you work VERY close to your mic.

I have been using Shure, EV and Crown mics without a hitch.

Eddie

Eddie, Gary,

Thanks A LOT for your tips concerning the PAS tuning. I already had done the gain procedure, following the manual, and only had tested Preset 50 (suited for electronic keyboard). Eddie, both presets you mentioned make the Tyros sound super, indeed , and better than #50. I prefer #57 (sounds like a sort of loudness-typical equalizer... I wonder how it will sound at high volumes...); #55 has the highest frequencies a little too much boosted for my taste and it inevitably worsens the feedback. I still didn't find enough time to play enough with both mic and general eq settings, but I think I'm on my way to make it sound the way I like it, as I'm getting better and better results. I'll probably test it for the first time in tomorrow's gig and this saturday, in a wedding. I confirm what's been said by most of you, PAS owners: the biggest quality of this PA is the amazing way it disperses the sound. No "empty spots", just quality hi-fi sound everywhere, in a very uniform manner, like no other system I've tried. I'm still a little bit distrustful about feedback (less resistant than I expected), but I have to wait until I try it in a real situation, use equalization with moderation, and extensively try different relative positions of the PAS/Mic. Eddie, I'm using Shure (Beta 58A, Beta 87A) EV (767) and Audio Technica MB 4K microphones.

Scott and Donny: While I still have to try the PAS in real situations, it sounds so good, that, at least for now, I'm not missing my stereo system. I urge you to follow Gary and Eddie's advice and audition it with different presets while tunning the keyboard internal equalizer. It DOES make a huge difference.

Thanks again for your advice, guys. I'll report back my impressions next week.

-- José.

Jose',

Be careful with the higher volume levels. Keep in mind that the audience will hear the same volume that you hear, and if you really crank it up, you'll be blowing them out of their seats.

As for the feedback, some minor adjustments on the mic's EQ settings should take care of that.

Good luck on your gig, and I'm confident you'll get lots of great responses from your audiences.

Gary

José
Testing at home at low volume is helpful, but expect some differences when you crank up the volume in a larger room. Depending how your EQs are set in your Tyros, the PAS settings of 55 and 57 will likely give you much more bass than you experienced at home. That is where the remote comes in real handy.

If possible, set up prior to the job and crank it up. Unlike conventional systems you do not have to have the speakers at ear-splitting levels on stage to accommodate the audience. Set the master level so that it feels comfortable to you. When the room is filled with people, you may have to tweak up a bit, but not much.

Best bet for avoiding feedback, if you are using a boom and a good directional mic, is to position it in a slightly upwards position rather than straight on to your mouth…and maybe a little off center pointing slightly away from the L1s. And work very close to the mic for best fidelity. Once you do some experimenting, I think you will find your vocals never sounded better.

One last hint: If you are like me you will be putting as much energy into analyzing and criticizing every nuance of the PAS as you do your actual performance. Relax. Once you find your PERSONAL preferences, you are going to love the PAS and devote all your energy to your performances.

Eddie

Gary,

I won't forget your good advice! I'll fire a couple of midis/mp3s to accurately adjust volume.

Eddie,

I know what you're talking about. There's always some time to get the best sound from a new PA. I expect to spend some time again, getting used to the PAS and finding the right way to use it. I took note of all your good advice; some of the strategies to fight against feedback are familiar to me, but I have to experiment a lot to know the whole story!

One last word to the price: it's pornographic down here in Europe! I don't know how Bose expects to sell this stuff around here, but they sure have to convince people to pay THE DOUBLE than they would pay for a conventional PA concept with similar fidelity (just talking about the component/assemble quality). I sure can understand all the hesitations in changing for this new thing.

Once again, I can't thank you enough, Eddie and Gary. Nobody at Bose (even those that went to the mother house, to learn with the product engineers) gave me such a "mature" advice! I'll be back soon.

-- José.

Here are some observations about my two first gigs with the PAS (one was a crowded bar, another was a wedding - large room):

- no doubt: the fidelity is high, but pretty comparable to other good quality conventional PA systems at half of the price.

- first impression is that it seems best suited for gigs at low/medium volume and especially intimate gigs.

- at high/very high volume it seems to lack some punch (or I'm too spoiled with my previous 15'' sub). i'm runnig the PAS with one sub only. it's possible that I still didn't find the proper eq settings, after all I'm still a newbie with this new thing.

- the great great advantage is the way it disperses the sound in the room. seems to considerably reduce my problems in "very rectangular" rooms, where the difference in volume tends to vary a lot through the room. no problems at all with excessive reverberation that I had in the past.

- more portable and easier to transport than my previous PA (the 15'' is heavy - 35 Kg - and big) and it fits better in my car. more powerful, too.

- my problems with feedback are desappearing. it's just a matter of properly choosing the relative positions of the mic and PAS. however, it's important to respect to distances indicated in the manual.

- people came to me very surprised that a "small" sound system could sound so good and loud. i took some time in my breaks to explain them what the concept was about.

Let me just insist in my problem finding the right sound at high volumes: it's as if in this situation, the well balanced punchy sound at low/mid volumes is replaced by a sound lacking a little bit low freq. (and sometimes high freqs too) - mids become excessively predominant.

In conclusion, I feel that I still have to do more experimentation and tunnig with the PAS to achieve better sound in dance situations, but by now, I don't imagine returning to my conventional HK Lucas PA. If someone (Gary, Eddie?) wants to comment... Thanks!

-- José.

[This message has been edited by Route 66 (edited 07-04-2005).]

Jose'

It took a while for me to get the settings on both the PSR-3000 and the PAS the way I wanted. However, once it was achieved, the sounds really improved quite a bit.

On the Bose base unit, I'm using the #57 preset and inputs #1 and #2 are hooked up to the keyboard's standard outputs--not the psuedo-mono. The volume control on the base unit is set at "6" and the Phantom power it set to off.

On the remote, the channel volume controls are set at the halfway point (straight up), the bass volue is also set at the halfway point and the bid and high range controls are set at the first mark to the right of the "0" which would be +4.

I position the tower about 3 feet off to my right or left, depending on the area I have to set up, and about 2 feet back from the back end of the keyboard. I've found the best sound I get with the sub's position is the place it directly between the front legs of the keyboard stand and facing sidways. Essentially, this too would depend on the venue's configuration, but thus far it has worked out well for long, narrow rooms with high ceilings and "L" shaped rooms where I'm not even seeing half the audience.

For the PSR-3000's settings, the master EQ I'm have the best success with is 4, 3, 2, 5, 8. The mic settings are as follows:

Low EQ= 80-hz @ 0-db
Mid EQ= 2.2-khz @ +4-db
High EQ= 10-khz @ +9-db

Noise gate ON, TH -60db
Compressor: On, -20, 5.0, 110
Vocal Harmony: Play, Off, Lower, L35>H, Auto, XF, Off, 85

Usually I set the PSR 3000's main volume at about mid range or a bit higher, then adjust the main volume of the PAS on the remote control, which is Velcro'd to the right side of the keyboard where's it's easily accessible.

ALmost forgot--A few days ago I custom built a 10-foot subwoofer cable following the specifications outlined by Bose technical support. I used a bit heavier wire (14-gauge) than the 16-gauge wire they called for--just to be safe. This allows a bit more versitility in positioning the sub in relation to the tower. Additionally, I'm replacing the short power cord with a 10-footer of the same wire guage and both cables will be wrapped with flexible cable wrap, which is available from Radio Shack for under $4 for a 10-fot length. I have already constructed a main harness for both audio cables, the remote cable and my connection that rums from the laptop to the PAS inputs. All of these cables are housed with cable wrap and makes a much neater package. I tested the system at various volumes and there was no interference because of the cables being close together. I'll post some photos of the setup at a later date.

Hope this is of some help,

Gary

[This message has been edited by travlin'easy (edited 07-04-2005).]

Hi Gary,

Again many many thanks for your help with details about your settings. It will certainly be very useful. Curiously my own seetings do not differ too much from yours. I'm also using preset #57, and both L and L/R Tyros' outputs go straight to channels 1 and 2. The global equalizer has almost the same "shape" that you use, and mic settings are not that different (I boost low freqs a little bit more, but it's difficult to compare as we utilize different mics). Interesting how you position the subwoofer relative to the tower. I just put it beside the tower, the main reason being the standard cable (that comes with the sub package) length. If the position influences the sound that much, I should then think about getting a longer cable and perform some tests...

I suspect that I have to retry the gain setting process. Although I have done it in a way that the red light never blinks - only the green (thus assuring that the gain is not too high), I notice the following curious thing happening: starting with a high volume and slightly less well balanced sound, and slowly fading out, I get better and better balanced sound (bass is better defined and overall sound improves). You use "6" as trim gain in the base unit; I'm setting it at "9" and the other gains (Tyros volume and remote control volume) are typically like yours'. Although the output signals from the PSR3000 and Tyros can be different, an hypothesis to test would be that the signal that enters the base unit is too hot... Humm...

Gary, I just printed your great message and will go through it in the next test opportunity I have. It's so great to count on your help and advice! I'll post some pics soon, too.

-- José.

Jose'

I now position my bass unit directly in front of the keyboard, right between the stand's feet and it's faced to the side instead of forward. In order to do this I had to make a custom cable measuring 10 feet in length, however, I used 14 guage wire instead of the lighter 16 guage that is used with the supplied subwoofer cable. I figured heavier wire would maintain high levels of conduction over the greater distance and help prevent distortion. Then, just this morning, I recieved an Email from Eddie pertaining to custom cables measuring greater than 10 feet that caused a reset problem with the older operating system. The new operating system seems to address that problem as well. I've used my new cable on a half dozen jobs with no problems at all.

The sideways positioning of the sub, at least for some venues, seems to provide better dispersion of the sub throughout the room. When the sub is facing forward, especially in long, narrow rooms, the levevl tends to be somewhat overpowering and not equally dispersed. I've read where some players have faced their sub toward the wall behind them, but when I tried it, the sound was a bit muffled coming from the sub.

Good Luck,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

That's an interesting observation, Gary. I will proceed with my experimentations, but your help and your conquered experience is
an unvaluable input! Thanks,

-- José.

Kind of a funny typo in that last sentence!

Tommy

Yep--I saw it, but figured that because the two keys are right next to each other it was a typo.

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

He, he! It wasn't exactly a typo but of course I meant INvaluable . Luckily you understand my english language glitches!

-- José.

I inderstood exactly what he meant.
Eddie