Yesterday Fran & I & my lovely wife went to breakfast & then aftewards decided to visit two of the biggest Music chain stores in the country to see whats new in KB's, whats hot, and demo a few different KB's & gear..........to my dissapointment they had a very very little selection of arrangers other then LOWEND Yamaha, Casio, & one PA50....THATS IT!!!!
all other were workstaions like the Fanthom, Triton, Motif, etc etc and a few electric pianos, nothing NEW....& forget about seeing or playing anything we talk about on here like the Tyros, 3k, PAX, G70, SD-1, Genesys, etc.....it just seems other then the internet it has become a lost art form to find & try an arranger KB....on top of that even if you bought a workstation with all the fancy appegiators, sampling, loops, etc, etc, you have to be a scientist to learn how to operate one besides being a good musician.......plus as I played some of these workstations they really seem to be all geared to hip hop, jazzy, new age, alternative type rythyms & sounds, & how you learn how to use this technology is way beyond the MANUAL.........seems like Arranger style playing is taking a backseat to creating your own SMF files in the future.....Ive been playing all my life and have seen many changes thrui the years but I have a bad feeling about what is happening in regards to
arragner KB playing in the future performing swing, foxtrot, chacha, rumba, polka, waltz, rock, disco, ballads,etc etc in the way we are used to in the coming years......technology is changing fast, & so is the gear we use to make music......I guess you have to settle with what we have OR start embracing new technology in the way you play & the way you operate your instrument.....this visit was a wake up call for me........
get ready my friends, "ITS COMING & GOING FAST" go to the biggest music store in your area and see what I mean, it's sad!!


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-25-2006).]

Then come to a small music store like mine, Kaye's Music Scene and you will see all the top arranger keyboards and the Motifs, Fantoms, Tritons and electric pianos. There are still many like me, trying our hardest to give musicians someting different then the big chain stores promote.
It's like going to a shopping mall here in Calilfornia. There are a ton of them and they all have the same stores, the same resteraunts, etc. etc.
When we shoppers stop supporting the small individual stores, whether music, hardware, camera, etc, and the specialty shops dissapear, then I will agree with DNJ that perhaps we will have little choice but to adapt to this new way of shopping and and being forced to buy what the few big stores will want you to buy because they don't have the sales force to be able to properly show and sell all the products but rather just the few most of these younger salespeople know how to use. This has been a sore spot since the chain stores have developed into such large players. Just look at the age of the average salesperson. I'm a 55 year old man who owns and loves running a music store, but do you think GuitarCenter or Sam Ash will higher many over 30 years old? I very much doubt it. And so, there lies many of the problems we confront in 2006. I sure wish we could go back to 1980 in the music store business. This decade was by far the most exciting and fun times in my 36 year history. There was only 2 guitar centers and Sam Ash was a few stores in New York.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

George ......if it wasnt a 3000 mile ride to your store for me I'd be there everyday...or even be a Demonsrator/Salesman for ya for sure.....what you say is true and happening all over the country. Every town is a CLONE of the next one , look around you.......1 Home Depot, 1 Lowes, 1 Walmart, 1 Sams Club, Costco, Malls, McDonalds, Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, Burger King, everywhere !!!!

I really miss the mom & pop stores ......going to a music store in the 60's 70's 80's was like going to
Disneyand ....ahhhhh whats the use?

George thanx for the reply hang in there buddy!

And on top of it, the personnel in those top chain stores NEVER (capital N) know anything about the keyboards, especially the arrangers.

If you browse around in there for a while, pay attention to the conversations that the personnel are engaged in.

They must be making the money that they expect because this problem is so consistent accross the chains and nothing from top management is done about it. You would think that top officials would make trips and lurk around, just to see what is going on, even ask common questions about certain products as to see how well the personnel knows the products. If they took only 25% of their idle chit-chat time and applied that time to looking over spec sheets, a manual or two, they would be over double their capacity to assist customers.

I buy the little junk odds and ends out of there because of the convenience, but I learn more about right here at the zone.

I happened to be in one of these chain stores to pick up a Keyboard magazine. It was at the time that I was planning to buy a PSR3000. I already knew that George way over in California, who has provided so much detail and assistance about all sorts of products right here at the zone, deserved my business more than anyone local to me. But I just wanted to hear the 3000. Well it was hanging on the wall rack, without the power chord. I walked over to the area where personnel was, stood there for just a minute. They continued talking about their own playing and related experiences so I walked away, not mad, but more confirmed that they are not deserving of the big dollars that I spend, even if they can save me a few nickels. By the way, when I bought the 3000 from George, I got a better price with it.

Thank you Donny, for opening the door to vent out my frustrations on this subject. I'm feeling much better now and should be good until 2007.

Eddie...your very welcome...seems Im not alone on this topic.....its a shame whats going on out there....we have to take care of our own here

Donny ... there is a new career for you ... you're young enough ... open a music store and stock it with arrangers of every make, shape, size and dollar amount ... and in your SPARE time you can play every one of these boards ...
I'll even drive down from RI to try them ...
t.

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 03-25-2006).]

I was in Tulsa a couple of weeks ago and saw a Guitar Center, so I stopped in. I asked if they had a Tyros 2 and the salesman said sure. He took me to a Tyros. He didn't even know there WAS a Tyros 2 out.
Except for the Tyros, they had some smaller Yamahas and a couple of Casios.
My dealer here quit stocking arrangers because of lack of interest. I tried to tell him he had to generate the interest. He said if he had to go to all that trouble, he'd prefer to spend the time promoting Grand Pianos, on which he can still make a decent profit. Every time I go there he offers me a job, so I don't go very often anymore
DonM

You know, the situation described above is not the fault of the big box stores. If so many US consumers weren't so obsessed with going to extremes in finding the absolutely lowest price as opposed to accepting a fair price from their local dealer, and if certain manufacturers stopped selling their products at greatly reduced prices to the large chain stores giving them a huge price advantage over independent retailers, and if the independent dealers would stick to their own territory and discontinue shipping product out of state at a price lower that the local retail store who probably demonstrated the instrument in the first place, and...... There are a lot more if's that contribute to the problem.

The local independent retailer can hardly survive running his store by himself much less pay a decent wage to a staff of knowledgeable professional salespeople. And the practice by consumers of using the local retailer as a showroom for a mail order purchase is just wrong.

Learning to operate an arranger keyboard is just as hard as learning how to operate any of the so-called professional workstations. To expect a big box store minimum wage employee who is only there for the employee discount to sit down and read manuals and learn everything there is to know about the instruments he clerks, uh�sells, well it�s just not going to happen that often. Of course that is not a global statement. I will say that I have run into a number of employees at these types of stores that I consider professional salesman, but they are far and few between.

Many of the same people who complain about these issues are the very same people who are perpetuating the entire situation. Having been in this business for a long time, I think the problem started at the manufacturer level. As it became common for certain manufacturers to introduce (or re-package) products every 6 months or so, they had to come up with a way to clear the warehouses of the old models. In some cases the discounts on discontinued products were offered to all dealers, but the only ones who could afford to purchase the large quantities required were the larger stores. That introduced deep discounts to the musical instrument consumer and it has grown into the problem as it exists today.

Luckily there are some manufacturers that are doing their best to correct the problem by running their business in a way that will allow the independent dealer to make a fair profit in order to be able to afford a good staff of employees. But if the consumers don�t start changing their ways, then the efforts of these manufacturers will be for nothing.

Sorry if this offends anyone. But if you are offended, it is probably because you are guilty.

Then there is the question as to why arranger keyboards are not as prevalent in the US as they are in the European countries and elsewhere. Perhaps it is because here in the US, a large number of people playing arranger keyboards started when organs with auto-accompaniment were the all the rage and the usual method of play is to use the single fingered chord mode and a simple melody. This is NOT to say that there is anything wrong with that nor is it a global statement. There are certainly many arranger players here that are more experienced players and use the full capabilities of their instrument. But many times it is either electric chord organ technique or playing to SMF�s, mp3�s or Karaoke CD�s and just standing there singing or maybe plucking a note here or there. Again, there is nothing wrong with that. The important thing is if you are having fun and the audience is enjoying the performance.

On the other hand, arranger players in other countries tend to use the full capabilities of the instrument by playing full left hand chords while also using the pitch bend and mod wheels to add articulation to solo instruments rather than using built-in pre-assigned multi-samples for automatic (but not as desirable as doing it yourself) articulation. There are many younger arranger players who play in bars and other venues that have made the one man band idea much more accepted.

But as we here in the US keep moving along I am hopeful that arranger/workstations will take their well deserved place on the pro keyboard wall of every keyboard store.

Dave


[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 03-25-2006).]

Dave.....as I cant agree with some of what your saying.....because there is much more to his problem if it really is a problem?
or maybe its something else......if you cant go find, see, touch, feel & play something before you buy it, most people will not spend big bucks to get one sight unseen....lets take the Genesys arrangers for example, might be the greatest Kb on earth....I'd love to try one ....but can I find one here in my area without driving hundreds of miles? no.....& I live between New York, Philadelphia, .......let me get my hands on one in a store sit down for a few hours, [play it....if I like it I buy it....but no I have to do it other ways like internet, 30 day return policies, bad advice from others, etc etc etc ....theres more to this problem....how musicians use the KB after they buy it is their perogative using any or all features within the unit.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Dnj:
Dave.....as I cant agree with some of what your saying.....because there is much more to his problem if it really is a problem?
or maybe its something else......if you cant go find, see, touch, feel & play something before you buy it, most people will not spend big bucks to get one sight unseen....lets take the Genesys arrangers for example, might be the greatest Kb on earth....I'd love to try one ....but can I find one here in my area without driving hundreds of miles? no.....& I live between New York, Philadelphia, .......let me get my hands on one in a store sit down for a few hours, [play it....if I like it I buy it....but no I have to do it other ways like internet, 30 day return policies, bad advice from others, etc etc etc ....theres more to this problem....how musicians use the KB after they buy it is their perogative using any or all features within the unit.[/QUOTE]

Actually, and I am fairly certain you are aware of this, there is a GEM dealer who I know stocks the Genesys that is only 33 miles from the intersection of I-95 (Jersey Turnpike) and I-195 in Toms River. He has been there for at least two years.

And I think most are aware that if a dealer is not in a close enough location, we offer a direct purchase with a return policy. This is only for folks that have no dealer close by.

As I said, as long as the person doing the playing is having fun, that is all that is important. If they choose to perform in public and get a good reception, it doesn�t matter how proficient of a keyboard player or singer they are, as long as they are accepted that�s great.

But one of the points in your first post has to do with the apparent lack of arranger interest at the retail level. And I expressed an opinion based on the experience I have gained of traveling across the US visiting GEM and non-GEM dealers as well as the connections I have in Europe and other countries.

Another issue that was brought up is the lack of knowledge of the salespeople on arranger instruments and again I was just offering an opinion as to at least one reason why.

If anyone reading my last post is guilty of the things I mentioned it is up to them to be honest with themselves and decide if they want to take a stand against it for the betterment of the industry as a whole. Eventually the prices are going to get so ridiculously low that the manufacturers will not be able to devote monies to future R&D and then that will be the end.

PLEASE NOTE: I am not trying to be argumentative so if it sounds like that, I�m sorry. Also note that I have left off my signature and did not mention GEM in my ititial post. The issues being discussed are across the board as it were. Altough GEM is one of the companies that is trying very hard to bring it's little part of the industry back to better days.

Dave

This is great I'm gonna vent again. No one seems to know if my i30 will work with the Midjay. Take my word for it one of the popular harmonizes a few years ago would not work with the Korg i30. You had to by a Korg ih Harmonizer. Uncle Dave laughed when I posted that comment, but it is a fact.

Now since the Midjay also works thru the midi signal, perhaps it too like the other manufacture's Harmonizer will not work with the i30 midi signals or whatever the problem is.

So, if I decide to buy a Midjay, I'm supposed to get it from the mom and pop guy and if it doesn't work I get screwed, when the big store will let me try it for 30 or 45 days in some cases and if it won't work I can return it?

Maybe I should order it from the big guy and send it back anyway and then buy it from the mom and pop guy after I know it works? Then I�d really need Prozac to sleep at night. I don't think so. I'm not rich. Once you buy it for $1700 you might get $1100 for it on ebay even if it's only two days old.

Now, the local guy lets me try stuff out for over a week. But he doesn't have many of the items that I�ve been interested in since I started this one-man band thingy. He sells the pianos for the big bucks and he has 40,000 guitars of every kind hanging on the wall. I told him he should change the name from Hart's Music to Guitar Center.

Thanks for this opportunity. This

Dave, I think you are on the money...

Dave good points for sure.......something is gonna happen one way or the other in years to come ...................shopping as a whole for ANY ITEM has been tremendously compromised since the internet shopping craze....if it werent for the internet we would never know about some of the smaller outfits & their products AT ALL!How can they keep building all these stores when half the customers buy thier items online & its growning year by year, something has gotta give & it ain't gonna be pretty !!

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-25-2006).]

The question that needs to be answered by you is "How are you trying to utilize any harmonizer when connected to your i30?"

Are you using the i30's single finger chord mode and expecting the full chord generated by single finger chord mode to be sent to the external harmonizer so it can create the appropriate harmonies? If so, it is possible that the i30 does not transmit that data via MIDI. I don't know this to be the case, but it is a possibility. I went to the Korg site but could not find a manual for the i30. Maybe you should contact Korg for an answer to this.

If you are playing full chords with your left hand and the i30 has the ability to transmit MIDI from the left hand section, then there is absolutely no reason why any external harmonizer shouldn't work.

If you are playing with SMF's that include a harmonizer track, then again there should be no reason why an external harmonizer wouldn't work. Of course this requires setting the harmonizer to the correct MIDI channel and making sure that at least that track of the sequence is set to transmit MIDI and not just play locally.

Or... you could upgrade your set-up to a Genesys Pro S which has a fine internal harmonizer as well as many other cool features. A store near Grand Junction, CO became a GEM dealer not too long ago and this is only about 11 miles from Fruita.

Good luck,

Dave

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 03-25-2006).]

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 03-25-2006).]

Dave, you said:
"To expect a big box store minimum wage employee who is only there for the employee discount to sit down and read manuals and learn everything there is to know about the instruments" ...
Who said "learn everything there is to know about the instruments".
Maybe learn just enough to:
- Not tell the customer looking at a Casio WK-3xxx model that it could not play 2 different tones at the same time
- Not show a Motif to a lady who said she's looking for an electric piano that also has auto rhythms.
- Not answer 'No' to the question "does this keyboard (WK-3500) have stereo output jacks to plug into a church PA system"
- To know enough so as not to show Don a Tyros when he's asking about a Tyros2.
- Not tell a customer that the reason they had no PSR3000's in the store is because it is a higher priced item than what they (GC) usually carry, even though I can see that he's got multi models of Triton's, Motif's -AND- 1 Tyros! (new, not a trade-in) in the store on display.

I've seen and heard many more blundering errors on minor/general details from these "big box store minimum wage employee", as you put it. They are selling EXPENSIVE stuff, and to not know general facts like these I've stated, and many more just like these?
Give me a break.
Radio Shack personnel can't be making that much more, and more often than not, I'm surprised by the knowledge, accurate detail, clarifications, and alternatives they have provided. If the large inventory, large volume stores are hiring the "minimum wage employee who is only there for the employee discount" and that's why they are justified to stand around talking about their personal interests, instead of becoming more familiar with the products that they sell, that's fine with me.

As I said above, I will take my business (even if it means costing me a few extra nickels) to whoever, Wherever they are, if they are more deserving of the sale.

Uh, I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not. From what you wrote, we are in agreement. If you don't think you agree with me, it is because you misread or I was not clear on the points I made.

If you are agreeing with me, well...never mind.

But just to be clear; yes I think it is appalling that someone could be in a position of selling a product and have no idea of its capabilities, basic or otherwise. When I was in retail sales it was a matter of personal pride that I had a better understanding of the products I sold than most of the manufacturers reps that came into the store. Why, because I felt it was my responsibility to be able to teach a customer how to operate the instrument he just purchased from me. How, by taking the manual home and reading it thoroughly and working with a new instrument before or after store hours and by going to every factory training session that was offered whether the store paid for the trip or not. Did the effort pay off? Yes it did. I became known as someone who is knowledgeable on many brands/models and was willing and able to offer help to those in need in a clear and precise way that even a beginner can comprehend. As I mentioned earlier, I travel the US conduction dealer product training and clinics and find that not too many people are interested in offering the kind of after-the-sale support that I felt was essential when I was selling.

BTW: IIRC, Radio Shack employees must go through a training program and then pass tests in order to become a store salesperson.

Dave

Dave,
Its agreed, we are then in agreement.

You mentioned earlier about retailers staying in their own territory...
I would think that GEM sales would go down because I don't find any in ANY territory.

If I asked about GEMs at the local 'big' stores, they would probably refer me to the jeweler down the road!

Hi Donny,
unfortunately I think the times are changing,
I luv the old rythms like waltzes, ballads bigband , latin etc
but unfortunately I don't think the younger generation does. Even my husband prefers listening to some of our son's dance trance music in preference to listening to some of the wonderful old classics from the 40's 50' 60's. Give me dean martin , perry como, johnny mathis any day of the week.

Also the workstations lend themselves better to the more modern beats than do the arrangers.

It's really sad.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dnj:
[.......plus as I played some of these workstations they really seem to be all geared to hip hop, jazzy, new age, alternative type rythyms & sounds,

..Ive been playing all my life and have seen many changes thrui the years but I have a bad feeling about what is happening in regards to
arragner KB playing in the future performing swing, foxtrot, chacha, rumba, polka, waltz, rock, disco, ballads,etc etc in the way we are used to in the coming years......

Dave,

The Korg guru I met thru the internet knows why only the ih will work effortlessly with the i30 and others have problems working with the Korg i30. If you'd like to ask him why this is so I'll give you his email. I don�t know the answer.

I don't know how to play one finger chords. Can you tell me how to play a Dm7b5 with one finger. I didn't think that was possible. What about for an ending going from a C7#5#9 and then resolving to a C7b5b9, and then if the melody note ends on a F in the key of F using the raised 5th chord which in this case is a DbM7 and then resolving to the Fmaj7. I don't believe any of this is possible with one finger. As a matter of fact I'll bet the fellow who invented the arranger keyboard can't do any of the above with one finger. Ha! Ha!

OK enough already for the chord theory.

DAVE explanation and QUESTION: I bought the i30 because I took the Korg guru's word at the time that nothing on the market could compare to the i30 at that time for sequencing which was my primary need because I wanted to sequence tunes using the arranger�s styles for my sax playing, not just computer software and besides the arranger fit me perfect because I wanted to sing a bit and play some keys.

Now, I've never seen a GEM before. And if the answer to the following question is no, I don't need to see one.
Will the GEM in sequencing mode allow me to record 8 bars then copy them and paste them to bar 9 and then allow me to just record and change just the turn around that is just about always different right before the bridge? Then will it let me record the bridge and then can copy and paste the first 8 bars right after the bridge for a complete song? If so, will it then let me copy and paste the whole song for 10 choruses if I want? I think the old Yamahas made you record the whole 10 choruses over again if you made a mistake.

I think the Korg has the top sequencer on the market. It perfect for the rare guy like me that plays a horn knows chord theory and wants to do a on-man band.

If you don�t have the answer , please send me a copy of the sequencer mode on the GEM. If it has as good a sequencer mode as a Korg I promise I'll go look at it and you might be doing me a bigger favor than the Korg guru did for me 4 years ago.

[This message has been edited by brickboo (edited 03-25-2006).]

[This message has been edited by brickboo (edited 03-25-2006).]

Ok...

From 1999 to 2002, I was a keyboard manager for Guitar Center in Towson,Maryland ( store 831).
I was also a demo guy for Ketron for a few years from July 1999 to 2002. Part of the reason I was a demo guy,is because I was an employee of GC and that ment that the GC keyboard buyers would come by the Ketron booth . I would show them (buyers for GC) a quick demo and even I as an employee of GC,having developed a sku and sell ketron products from a GC store, they could have cared less about Ketron ...

So,the ignorance of the buyers at the chain stores are a hugh factor in whether arrangers get purchased.. Hence...no arrangers in Guitar Center, except in their "A" store locations...Atlanta,Hollywood, Boston, etc....

Keyboard magazine has started reviewing a couple of arrangers in the recent past, BUT Even the way that writers at Keyboard Magazine has covered and reviewed arranger keyboards is very poor , in comparison to the approach of a magazine like ..Sound on Sound , as a comparison.... http://www.soundonsound.com/


If Guitar Centers continue to expand,than arranger keyboards will be hard to find...


Regards ... Dan O'


------------------
Ketron, Yamaha, Casio,Korg
http://www.baltimoremusiccenter.com
1-866-348-8876

I want the Chordettes singing, "Eddie My Love".

If not the Chordettes themselves, I'll settle for the MP3.


[This message has been edited by MrEd (edited 03-25-2006).]

Hi Brickboo,
if you're after a sequencer with similar functions to the korg, I doubt the midjay would fulfill those requirements.
Have you tried downloading the manual.
I downloaded both the sd1 & the midjay manuals so that I could compare the differences before I bought. I thought at first it may have been the module version of an sd1 but it's not really.
The midjay is sort of unique.
It's got functions that the sd1 hasn't, & vice versa. Really depends on your requirements.
Download a manual,it should give you more of an idea.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by brickboo:
[B]

Rikki,

What board do you use?
I don't need the Midjay for sequencing. I have the i30; I have excellent BIAB tunes with the pedal jazz bass and drums accenting the 2nd and 3rd beats that I set for the intros and turn-arounds just like a real jazz combo. No arranger can do this.

I just want to add styles mostly for vocals, and I also like the ability to record live without an extra recording set up for live performance.

I'm not into Midi files that much. I have 8 or so that I got from Gary and DNJ that are identical to some of the Steve Tyrell tunes I do. And I have 6 or 7 identical Ray Charles tunes I enjoy like Georgia. Other then that I stay away from midi files. I'd rather comp behind my vocals and do a few licks between the lyrics and play a little solo here and there.

So the Midjay may be what I need. If I had the money and it wasn�t so heavy, I'd probably get a PA1X. To me for jazz it swings the best and I prefer the over all sounds on it of any keyboard I've played. And the 35 watt speakers would be perfect for the retirement centers I play. I have the amp set on 1 and it�s just about right for them. I think it�s a hearing aid problem.
Boo

The answer is a big definite YES. The sequencer is very powerful. You can copy and paste to your hearts content. Editing can be done per track down to the individual pitch, bar, beat and pulse level. This is true for Erasing, Copying, Velocity Shift, Quantizing, and Transposition. You can also Move sections of a song (which is CUT and paste in the true sense of the words). There is a Microscope mode if you want to edit at the MIDI data level. There is a Master Track that stores the initial volume level of a song, the tempo and the song key (for the lead sheet display) and which of the 8 Song Presets will be active at song start. Of course all of these things can be changed anywhere within the song by inserting new values within the Master Track at the desired location.

The sequencer has 250,000 event memory. The Genesys can store up to 64 songs in its internal memory. The internal 20GB hard drive, floppy drive and CD-R drive can also play GEM Songs, MIDI files, mp3�s and Wave files. Any song located on the hard drive, no matter which of these formats, can be instantly recalled for playback using the Song Data Base and new Play List function.

I think you would be very surprised by the sequencer in the Genesys.



Well if I don�t know the answer, then I shouldn�t be the national product support manager for Generalmusic Corp.

Please let me know if you have further questions.

BTW: You do realize what I meant by One Finger Chord Mode, right? I was just trying to help you out there. I don�t really care to contact the guy from Korg, because I don�t really care to know the deficiencies or idiosyncrasies of the i30.

Best Regards,

Dave


------------------
Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

We have the same problems in Australia with big stores in all areas of merchantdising.
It appears to me that they buy cheap not what the consumer necessarily wants but what they think they can flog quickly.
It always anoys me that when I need a specific item for a job around the house I can not find it in these stores.
We have a locally owned music store in Hobart where the main sales person is a Yamaha Arranger Player and I get good advice and service from him.

Cousin Ken


Cousin Ken

Hi Brickboo,
I'm only a hobbyist, so I shouldn't really be getting involved. I ended up with the sd1+, because I wanted a dedicated arranger.
I Like playing round with style creation, and the midjay lacked that function, plus the sd has better arranger functions.
There again the Midjay has functions my SD1 doesn't.
There was a bit of a discussion a while back
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/012880.html
might be of interest.

below is a brochure , demo's etc, may be of help. It's kind of hard explaining what a Midjay actually is. . http://www.ketronus.com/midjay.htm

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by brickboo:
[B]Rikki,

DNJ has touched on some real problems on arranger availability and sales in stores.

But I think that the arranger manufacturers are to blame for this.

Most times they release a new keyboard, it is usually just some small changes made to an older one. Then they charge unreasonably high prices.

The consumer, probably because they don�t get what they want on the new release, look for the cheapest price where ever they can find it (over the internet, out of state and so on). This hurts the local dealer. And as such, the local dealer does not stock the high-end arrangers because they are unreasonably priced and not enough persons buy from them to justify having on display.

Is this right, should it be like this? Absolutely not!!

Consumers should be able to walk in to their local music shop, see and demo their desired arranger and buy it from that local dealer at a reasonable price.


This would be good for all involved because the manufacturer would get their product displayed and bought so that they can fund R and D, the local dealer would get sales and customers to stay in business and the consumer would get a reasonably price high-end arranger and local support.

For this to happen, high-end arranger manufacturers must realize the change in times and adapt their business strategy as it relates to arranger product development, marketing and pricing.

Whether we like it or not, we are getting in to a more software based environment. Arranger manufacturers are competing in this environment. As such, new arrangers must be able to take software upgrades that can take new sounds and styles whether from the manufacturer or third parties. Interaction between the hardware arranger and a computer is critical for today�s musician.

Manufacturers must put some time and money in to marketing. That is not just to arranger players, but other keyboard players and musicians as well. Market an arranger the same or even a better way you would a workstation or new music software. That means you must have the hippest sounds and some styles on the keyboard itself. That�s not to say that you must eliminate the traditional arranger styles, but have some banks of sounds and styles catering to today�s sounding music.

The next thing is price. For at lease one arranger product, market penetration should be a strategy. Charge the same or even a lower price you would a workstation. Making a distinction between arrangers and workstations as it relates to price saying that arrangers have to cost more because of the intellectual property of styles and the technology is pointless. There is just as much intellectual property and technology issues as it relates to workstations and arpeggios as there is with arrangers and styles.

Remember when a keyboardist sees a new keyboard for the first time, they don�t see arranger or workstation they mostly see something to play that has great sounds and rhythms to make music with.


So to get arranger displayed in more stores, 1. it starts with a great sounding and user friendly product
2. and a marketing campaign to penetrate the market
3. and reasonable prices.

I want to thank everyone for your inputs on this topic........

I cant see why they can't incorporate arranger styles & features within these great sounding workstations such as the Fantom, Motif, Triton etc ....many times I'll be in a store plaing a synth workstation and saying to myself " man if this thing only had some styles too "
its all about making music, or is it their way of making the consumer always wanting more but never can get it?
If you noticed compared to years ago new models are coming out less and less that says something right there, then if at all when they finaly come available they just make a few little upgrades, add a sound here and there, and above all most of the time never listen to what amature/profesional cutomers really look for or need but nothing groundbreaking exept the price....!!!! The next ten years is gonna be a big reassesment of things to come in music gear.....hop on the bus OR buy backups of what you love now ;(

Donny,

Please tell me what types of sounds you hear in workstations that bring you to make the above statement.

Thanks,

Dave


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Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 03-26-2006).]

Dave......I'm just saying in general..... some sounds not all, arppegios loops, just have a Richer Tone to my ear maybe due to efx, more poly, or whatever....not to say that many arrangers dont have some excellent sounds also in many top arranger KB's.......I would also like to see all the amazing worstation editing features,
plugins combined with an arranger KB.

.....As a side note......a while back I did play a Genesys pro in the music store you talked about 35 miles from my house..it was tucked away in a corner of the KB room all dusty....when I saw it I had to get a sales boy to come over put it on a stand and finaly hook it up to an amp for me to try out......although super heavy for my uses on the road.....I was impressed with all the great features for sure, I wish you were there to demo the unit ....I really needed more time to get into it fully, & of course the Tattooed green mohigan haired sales person had no idea at all about the Gen pro I was playing....so I had to get around the unit on my own......what is in the future for GEM as far as a lighter unit with many of the G pro features for the pro gigging musician?



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-26-2006).]

i believe that the G70 uses fantom sound chips, tyros uses motif sound chips, korg uses triton sound chips, and genesys uses, well genesys sound chips...the manufacturers do not create different chip sets for workstations-v-arrangers, they are the same sounds, with different names(the same actually on some) and are eq'd and effected slightly differently to fit in with a "full band" soundscape..in fact you have pretty much the FULL sound edting capabilities on the PA1X, i think the Genesys can too, but Yammi and Roland have a more limited "Synth" editing capability...in truth,most of the arranger boards, could really be more correctly called workstations as they can do everything..in the case of the korg you have solo synth, sound creation/editing; arranger;sampler;sequencer; recorder (mp3); and just add wav audio recording for the gensys (and dave can correct me) but it also does all of the above, the roland does the same as does the yamaha and the ketrons too..so ALL of us arranger keyboard owners have the TRUE workstations in my opinion...
dennis
almost forgot, you also have apreggiators on the arrangers as well with their "pads", playing musical phrases and riffs at the touch of a button, and these can be user edited and recorded as well!!

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 03-26-2006).]

Dave
1. What is the name of the store where I can see this GEM in Grand Junction?
2. I don't want to do tract by tract sequencing. Does the GEM sequence with the styles and still have all of the copy and paste features? This is what I do. I don't have the patience to sequence track by track. It'd take me 6 months to do one tune.
3. How much does this baby weigh?
4. How many styles does it have?
All the arrangers have hundreds of more sounds than I'd ever use. For performance it�s all about styles for me. The more the better.
Dave thanks for all of the input.

Hi,

[*]Please send an e-mail to me requesting the dealer name and I will promptly reply via e-mail.

[*]Yes. It is very easy to record a full arranged song while playing in Style Mode. We call this method of recording �Easy Song Record� mode. A song recorded in Easy Song Record mode is exactly like a song recorded track by track. There is no difference between the two, nothing to distinguish the fact that the tracks were created simultaneously by using the arranger section. So yes, all of the editing is available.

[*]The Genesys Pro S weighs 41 lbs. and is very sleek in shape. The LCD pops up for play and folds flat for transport to make for a fairly thin case. We also offer a very nice padded gig bag with wheels which I have but I generally just carry it because it is not that heavy.

[*]The Genesys has 256 internal Styles and 64 User Style locations. You can record your own styles from scratch, or you can copy any internal style to a user location and edit its tracks using the very same editing functions that are available in the sequencer section. Or you can download additional styles from www.musicmediasoft.com and other sources.

BTW: I forgot to mention that the Genesys sequencer has 32 tracks instead of the usual 16. There are a lot of advantages to this besides just having an additional 16 tracks to record into.

• Each track of a sequence can be assigned any MIDI channel and whether it will play locally, externally or both.
• Multiple tracks can share the same MIDI channel as well so you can double up on parts or have a huge layer as the live keyboard sound while playing with a sequence.
• The Genesys features two sets of MIDI In/Out/Thru ports for true 32 MIDI channel capability.

I made mention of a Song Preset in a previous post. Each song has 8 presets that are saved along with the song (in GEM Song Format). A Song Preset remembers;

• Sound assignments for all 32 tracks
• All editable track parameters
• All effects assignments
• Pedal and wheel assignments
• Mic level, vocal effects and vocal harmonizer settings
• Programmable Pad assignment

I will be on the lookout for your e-mail.

Best Regards,

Dave



[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 03-26-2006).]

People will always be looking for a bargain and I am as guilty of that as anyone else. It does not pay back for certain prducts, though, such as keyboards. In those cases it'd be wiser to pay a bit more but have service at hand. But before making a purchase it'd be nice to have a knowledgeable demonstrator/salesperson that can show and explain us what the instrument can do: sounds, styles, effects, etc. A salesperson trying to sell you a keyboard but has no knowledge about keyboards or that particular kb has no business coming up with a 'memorized' sales pitch. There was a time when a salesperson had to be a demonstrator as well. Now you have a salesperson but not a demonstrator. Lots of stores in Taiwan have plastic over the keyboards and you aren't even allowed to play for that would make them secondhand according to the store manager. Or they can't seem to locate the plug. The looks on their faces whenever I ask them to try out an organ or keyboard...true horror. But once you buy you're stuck with it for there's no such thing as a try-out period. On too many occassions have I been given the cold shoulder and had to put up with their indifference. If that's how they deal with potential customers they sure don't have reason to complain about faltering sales. I do let them know that they've just lost a potential customer for I won't put up with such behavior. Serves them right! A store that has brochures of the top models but doesn't have them in the shop had better pack up and change its line of business.

Taike



------------------
Khoi huk ngam sud tee huk kon diow.

Hi Don,

The store I am talking about sells a lot of Genesys keyboards and the owner (who also is the main salesman as far as I know, is anything but what you described. I believe you are talking about a different store, possible one in the DC area"?". If this is the case, I understand your comments.

Do you really consider 41 lbs. to be super heavy? For an instrument whose case is constructed entirely out of metal and not molded plastic I don't think it is heavy at all. And the design of the case being as thin as it is when the LCD is folded down for transport, makes for a very small package to carry. The Genesys Pro is far more roadworthy than its plastic counterparts so I think the tiny bit of added weight is well worth it to properly protect the owners' investment.

Best Regards,

Dave


------------------
Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 03-27-2006).]

Dave, for a 61 key instrument 41 lbs IS heavy. I believe, many manufacturers are guilty of ignoring the needs of gigging musicians, and making the instruments unnecessarily heavy - I am sure that it is possible to make a metal-cased instrument with 76 keys that weighs no more than 35 lbs - just look at Ketron, and a 61 key instrument should be lighter than that (ever heard of aluminum?). As even the younger users of the arrangers are growing older, weight becomes more and more of an issue. True, many used to lug around 100lbs+ organs in the 70s, but the times have changed, and compaing today's electronic instrument to a 40 year old one not reasonable. There is value in encasing the instrument in steel, but these days it is not an indication of the instrument's durability - it is determined by the electronics inside, so if five years down the line an instrument becomes unserviceable due to obsolete electronic components, it will have to be thrown away just like the one with a plastic body.

To address some of your other comments: I have been to "small" specialty stores in my area which stocked arranger keyboards of particular makes (G70, and before that, Technics). I received the similar service to that in the GC - the salesman was all sales and no knowledge. The main difference was that they were insulting me with the car-dealer like pricing (e.g. list $7000, but buy today and I will give you a whopping $1000 off) - is that what you call "fair price"? I am not saying that all independent dealers are like that, but this has been my experience on multiple occasions. I came close to buying the Technics, but their pricing outraged me so much that I had cancelled my order. I must not have been the only one, which is why they are where they are now.

The poor sales are not all fault of the dealers - the manufacturers are in large part to blame. As earlier posts here stated, the newer models of the keyboards are my and large repackages of the old technologies - while the Korg may be using the Triton chip, look how many years it took Korg to incorporate this chip in the PA1X. Heck, your own company touts Drake technology as the cutting edge of sound generation. Yet your GEnesys does not use it, even though it was introduced way after the Drake? Why should the user plunk their money into something that is using old technologies from the start?

Of course, it is not enough to simply include the latest chip - an arranger is a different instrument, with a different user interface requirements - a good UI is much more important than in a synth, as the player is trying to control a virtual band, and not just the solo voices. The touch screen, which may work for off-line configuration in Triton does not work as well in an arranger (like the PA1X or G70), and I am not even going to go into the polyphony issues.

A cursory search of this web site will yield representative list of features which the users deem important. I don't know what kind of market research the arranger makers do, but there are very few instruments on the market today which include most of the features that the users need. While there may be a disagreement as to needing 76 keys, or only 61, there is argument that important thing is keeping the weight of the instrument as low as possible. Most posters advocate having 61 keys mainly as a way of keeping the weight down. Still, if you check the newer offerings, Roland G70 is heavier than its predecessors, Korg is heavier still, and Genesys it competing to outweigh them without even trying to offer the advantages of 76 keys.

I believe that the main problem is not just the poor marketing, but that manufacturers think more about protecting their markets, than making what the players need/want. They deliberately hamstring their instruments, keeping the latest in new technologies as the selling points for their future supposed offerings, rather than maximizing the value and features of the current ones. And that is the real reason that (with few exceptions) the arranger keyboards are relegated to the real shelves of the obscure little stores.


Regards


[This message has been edited by Alex K (edited 03-27-2006).]

Alex.....
great post ......your not alone in your thinking my friend!! You really have to do your homework & research before you buy a piece of gear these days......with "very few exceptions" eg: George Kaye, Dan O, AJ, I can sadly say that the stores are absolutley no help what so ever to the uninformed buyer.......people are getting ripped off every day .......I've had people come up to me on stage and say " I just bought a Yamaha psr 3000, got a good deal $2795.00 it was the last one they had in the store, plus I get lifetime lessons too" the mark up is unbelievable, then 6 month later the same salesmen talks the same customers into a new $20,000+ organ which they'll never play or learn how to use...which usualy after they pass away the wife or husband will donate it to the church or clubhouse with a nice plaque with his name on it "In Memory Of Joe Blow" etc, etc, Roland G70 ? yea, try to find one of those in your local store......but in home organ stores they are ballooning the price of them to levels unkown to mankind !!!
makes me sick to hear this crap...
It's buyer beware my friends!!



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-27-2006).]

I saw a home video on Sunday of a MacDonals in the Eukraine. It looked like a MacDonals in any other city in the U.S. or Canada.
Many of the large stores carry the same products, even the smaller stores, carry the same product.
In Canada Music stores will NOT negtiate a lower price. They all sell at the same list price. So I often ask the question, why would I buy from one store or another? It has to be for some reason other then price.
This sounds silly, but Long & Mcquade in T.O. throw out the boxes, so I would have to carry a brand new, pristine, keyboard home without a box. I buy from another store that keep the boxes.
Starkeeper

Donny,

I am really glad you brought this up. When I worked for the Baldwin Piano Co. one of my responsibilities was to visit dealers around the country to offer product training and workshops for those dealers. A few of those dealers also sold home organs and I was really turned off by the prices charged and for the trade-up sales tactics that these dealers practiced. Recently though, my opinion has changed somewhat.

The fact is, for many of these senior citizens going to weekly organ classes is a recreational experience where they get to enjoy the company of others in an environment that is fun. To see these folks share their pride with the rest of the class in purchasing the next level up instrument is heartwarming. Do I think the prices are overboard? Yeah, probably. But on the other hand, it is their money and if they choose to spend it on something that brings them joy and health (yes, I believe in the music wellness program) instead of leaving it to their relatives to squander, then I say more power to them.

As for your �buyer beware� comment, as someone who grew up in a retail environment, the similar statement of �salesman beware� can also be true referring to my earlier comments regarding the practice of trying out here, buying there.

Regards,

Dave

Donny
In college and at sales schools today, the term is marketing strategy. Even if they are ripping you off. Ha! Ha! I agree 100%. Buyer beware! It's a dog eat dog world out there friends. Everything is throw away and get a new one.

Every manufacturer learned or is learning from the computer manufactures. You never get what they have, they sell you what they want. These guys have the market figured out 20 to 50 years ahead of what we�re thinking. We all know that by now.

It's great for the economy but it sucks for the consumer. Figure that one out. I've been trying to since I heard Walter Croncrite say something similar 40 years ago.

I try my best to purchase from local businesses, but sometimes that is impossible. I recently asked here about any Ovation dealers. I wanted to buy two Ovation guitars...a nylon string and an acoustic double-neck. They're available to be shipped today from Musicians Friend and other on-line vendors for $449.00 and $999.00, respectively.

I had heard bad things from the local dealer, but went to them anyway. The nylon string was supposed to be in over a month ago. After multiple visits and calls, a third contact at the store finally got one in. It was from one of the store's other locations, a floor model, and damaged. Plus, it was shipped with a bag, and was supposed to be in a hard case.

I was supposed to make a deposit on the double when I picked up the nylon string, since they wouldn't normally stock one. That was fine, but after waiting for nearly 6 weeks and getting a defective product and no action on the other item, it's no wonder some retailers are losing business to places like Musician's Friend. In this case, it wasn't about price. Actually, Musicians Friend and others offered free shipping, and the retailer has a policy of meeting their price, so I would have paid $90.00 additional for Ky. sales tax.

Sadly, when shopping for things other than musical equipment, customer service and follow-through have also all but disappeared, in some cases.

All I wanted to do was pay these guys $1500.00 and get what I wanted.


That's pretty sad...


Russ

Hi Alex,


Actually the Genesys case is aluminum. But inside there are multiple circuit boards, hard drive, floppy drive, CD-R drive, a real transformer so a real power cord so no external A/C power adapter is necessary which is not only an inconvenience sometimes but can also be problematic over time. These things add up to some weight and the metal structure inside the case is designed to properly support these components. The external case most certainly adds to the durability of an instrument. In a plastic case instrument where the circuit boards are screwed to the plastic, every time the instrument is picked up and the plastic flexes even slightly, that is putting stress on the tracings of the printed circuit board.

Also, we can still supply most parts for our instruments that are 10 years and older.



I agree that this is an issue. But I must say that a Generalmusic dealer has the advantage of my services. There is no one else in the US that is as familiar with the Genesys system or any of our products as I am. And I am on-call pretty much 24 hours a day. I am also always available to end-users or potential GEM owners via this and other forums, and by cell phone. I know of no other product support person who answers e-mails and forum posts at 3am after getting in from a band gig just so the customer will have an answer as soon as they log on in t he morning. I have spent my own time using my own equipment to create videos that are not just �Look what I can do, buy me now� but are informative and help to point out what can be done with the instrument.

Sure, some dealers overprice gear. Those are not the dealers that we try to seek out to become GEM representatives. This is one reason why the US is not flooded with GEM dealers right now. We are very selective as to who can carry our products. It is extremely important to us that those who sell our products take the time to learn how to properly support their customers.



Every company does some re-packing every once in a while. Generalmusic is far less guilty of that however. There are significant improvements or additions to each new model that GEM produces.

The DRAKE microprocessor is a very powerful chip. To offer a simple explanation, the design of this chip is such that there are no internal connections as there are on most processors. As an example, the CPU in your computer, Intel, Athlon, or whatever has certain pre-assigned functions. A software engineer creates his programming around those functions. In the DRAKE, everything must be written from scratch. The advantage is we can make DRAKE do whatever we want it to do without limitation. Of course this requires much more programming that a normal CPU. The decision to initially utilize DRAKE to re-create the properties of an acoustic piano was a good decision. To think that DRAKE will not be utilized in the arranger/workstation instruments is not true. But it does take time to design hardware and software. Eventually DRAKE will be the CPU in all GEM products. But the question is what can DRAKE bring to an arranger type instrument. Well, a lot. But the advantages were far more appropriate for the digital pianos at the time that DRAKE was finished.



I don�t know about the other brands regarding this point. But it is not true of Generalmusic. We have been the first to introduce many of the features that are now found on most all of the arranger instruments. I.E. Video output, internal vocal harmonizer, sequencers will full editing capabilities, the ability to load user samples, full feature sound editing, on-board hard drive, internal CD burner, etc.

I understand what you are saying and why you are saying it. But I do ask that you consider my responses.

Best Regards,

Dave


------------------
Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

Dave,

I am to trying to single out Generalmusic, as IMO they are at the head of the pack where features are concerned. However, the fact is that Genesys, with aluminum case or not, is still 41 lbs with only 61 keys. That is very heavy. The electronic components are not heavy if they are properly designed. I bet, all the cirtuitry inside Genesys, or any other keyboard, could be placed on two PCBs - an analog one and a digital one (a cheaper design with less magnetic isolation could fit it all on one board). The fact that a typical keyboard uses many PCBs inside, each of which has to be mounted on standoffs and interconnected with wire harnesses, supports my contention that a typical arranger tries to regurgitate the existing (and usually older) technology, without really having put the proper effort into the design of the instrument. I also well understand that Drake is a DSP chip, which requires programming around it. However, the Promega series has come up with the necessary programming already. Why not incorporate the best modelled piano into the arranger keyboard? Just think of how appealing to the customers the software updates would be that would add modelled sax, guitar, violin, etc? The customers may even want to pay to get those, if they perceive the updates as adding new features to the instrument, and not just fix bugs and operational shortcomings which should not have been there in the first place.

At the moment, the main differences between the all-in=one keyboard and a software based solution are the user interface and component integration. For the most part, the software users can not change sttings by pressing a single button, and are typically required to use mouse and multiple keystrokes on the QWERTY keyboard. In addition, the user has to carry the PC and a KB controller, instead of a single board. On the other hand, they have the advantages of being hardware-independent, such that should the PC fail, the software can be reloaded on the new one, and it will function the same as the one before. I believe that very soon the software based solutions will offer a viable alternative to traditional keyboards, unless the current manufacturers change the way they tread customers' demands.

I do not enjoy arguing. By posting my frank, and perhaps controversial, comments, I hope that the KB manufacturers will start taking users' needs seriously, and ensure their continued presence in the marketplace, instead of going the way of Technics. I believe that the competition is healty for the market and for the end users, and simply hope that we will continue having viable choices of the keyboards.

Best regards,
Alex

I think you mean you are not trying to single out Generalmusic. Thanks. I forgot to mention another reason for the weight of the Genesys. Anyone who has played the Genesys will note that the keys are full size in width and length (this doesn�t really add any weight to speak of, but it is still worth pointing out) and the keys are also weighted. Each key has a lead under core to give the key substance and to offer a better tactile response. 61 little hunks of lead does add some weight to the overall unit, but again a good quality keybed is just another thing that the designers at Generalmusic feel is important in a professional instrument.

Regarding the concept of compressing multiple PCB�s down to one or two; the DRAKE chip has the power potential to do that very thing. And don�t think for a minute that it isn�t being worked on right now. But being an engineer, I am sure you are aware that there is far more to it than programming a single chip. There is a lot of supporting circuitry that must be designed both for internal housekeeping as well as the user interface itself, the software then has to be written to make it all operational, and then debugged. The internal and external structure must be designed, fitted, altered, etc. This stuff takes time, period. It doesn�t happen over night or even over a long weekend.

It sounds like a great idea to add the DRAKE chip to an existing product like the Genesys. And since both the Genesys and the Promega are already production instruments, it may seem that it is simply a matter of putting both keyboards in a softly lit room with a bottle of fine Italian wine and in about an hour or so a new product will magically immerge. �Sorry for that, please take it as an attempt at humor and not sarcasm�. Again I am sure you realize that to implement a new component into an existing system requires the original operating system to be re-worked, often to the point of having to completely start over. Plus there is the issue of internal hardware changes that must be made in order to have a place to put the new component, not to mention possible front panel changes related to the newly added features. Etc. etc.



Neither do I. And I am not trying to do so here. I am simply trying to point out some things that you maybe haven�t considered.

I am the first in line to want things to move much faster, but I have also been in and around the manufacturing side of things for long enough to know that things take time.

Please don�t stop offering comments and suggestions, whether good or bad. Believe it or not, there are people listening. You are corresponding with one right now.

Best Regards,

Dave


------------------
Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

Dave, Indeed the line in my post should have read "I am not trying to single out Generalmusic".

Regards,
Alex

That's how I see it as well. Excellent post, Dave.

Taike

------------------
Khoi huk ngam sud tee huk kon diow.

I know that Alex. lol

Dave

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

Thank you very much Taike. I have great respect for senior citizens. They have lived through many things, both good and bad and deserve the respect of others. It truly pains me when I see elderly people being taken advantage of or being disrespected, many times by the very people they brought into the world and worked hard to create a comfortable life for.

These folks absolutely live to go to organ class. Sure, they may learn a few songs along the way. But the joy it brings them to be able to gather together with others their own age that share the same memories of the past, and concerns for the future, without having to do so in the confines of an old folks home, well... that is priceless.

And it should also be pointed out that the stores and staff that offer these types of classes/social events are special people as well. Yes, they are running a business and expect to make an income, but still it takes a special person with a kind soul to conduct these types of events and to make sure everyone involved is having a good time.

Best Regards,

Dave


------------------
Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

Loving seniors is fine and dandy ....but ripping them off with exorborant prices on items like organs, kbs etc baiting them with free lessons or whatever .....knowing full well they will never learn how to play a high tech $20,000+ organ with all its features in their life time let alone at 75-80yrs + is a crime in my eyes, & every chance I get I will tell them so if asked, I wouldnt want it to happen to my parents or anyone elses either......they would have just as much fun with a nice KB under $1000.00 and still enjoy the magic of making music without a doubt.....

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-27-2006).]

Ripping off people is never nice, no matter how old they are.Then again, being ripped off has nothing to do with age. I do know that when I am old and gray I'd rather live my remaining days having fun and, if my finances allow me, to spoil myself. Why would only the young have the best?
People complain about not having the time to cook but insist on having the grandest kitchen they can afford. No one calls that insane. If a senior citizen wants to spoil himself they call it Alzheimers. Just think of it, all the things they couldn't do or have before because of other responsibilities. So let them travel the world or buy the instrument they love to have. Don't most people buy a car model they really don't need as a cheaper model gets them to the same destination as well? I grant every senior citizen his/her dream to come true.

Taike


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Khoi huk ngam sud tee huk kon diow.

Knowing what you spend your money on is normal & your perogative......but, getting TAKEN by some salesman UNKNOWINGLY is a SIN!!

Donny,right on. If I thought any body took advantage of my parents I'd break their jaw. It I couldn't do it with my bare fist I'd do it with a fist of rolled up quarters. You're right friend. I hate scum. That what that type of salesman is. I'm, sure most aren't but some are.

Dave, thanks for your very interesting information. We can all learn a lot from you, and you are good to listen to our gripes and wishes. Thought I'd better chime in!
As I have grown older and the years of lifting equipment every night have taken their toll on my back, light weight is totally essential to me.
So essential that I don't even consider the Korg, Roland or GEM because I know I won't be happy dealing with them every day. Fortunately there are excellent light-weight alternatives, certainly good enough to get the job done.
If I were sitting in the same place every night, not having to move gear, my list of possible keyboards might be different. Since this is not the case, I've been led out of necessity to consider Yamaha, Ketron and even Casio (well it's not there yet, but they seem to be heading the right direction). Actually the Korg PA80 was the right weight, but had too many shortcomings for my way of using it.
I'm now using a Ketron Midjay with a controller--two pieces with a total weight of less than 20 pounds. On the plus side, it just happens to sound great and have multiple functions (MP3, Midi files, WAV, Sound effects, Hard Disk Recorder, good mic processing, lyrics display, etc.) Are there drawbacks, certainly, but not enough to offset the total package benefits. It has replaced my arranger, laptop and mixer. Now the heaviest thing I have to move is the Bose PAS, and it's heaviest component is around 30 pounds.
My point is that there are varying criteria for each of us in selecting an arranger. You graciously offered to send a GEM to me with full return privilige some months ago, and I really appreciated the offer. My primary reason for declining was the weight. O.K. the other reason was that I really needed to sell the current gear before changing, and I was afraid to do that.
I've even compromised somewhat by going back to a 61-note controller, even though Charles said on another post that only those that can't play very well can live with that. I may change again to a 76-note controller after I've given this a real chance.
I made a living for many years with only 61 keys, so I know it can work. Still . . .
Anyway, this is just another point of view. I sincerely hope to be a GEM user one of these days. Just make something I can tote around in one hand.
DonM

Don M wrote

" I sincerely hope to be a GEM user one of these days. Just make something I can tote around in one hand. "

Answer Genesys XP

Jerry

Good post Don.....I'm right with ya & pretty much agree on all you've said above.....I too love my Midjay/Roland A37 ? Bose PAS comb for gigging its so lightweight, super versatile with styles, mp3, wav, smf, sfx, voc, etc etc, the sound is amazing.....& I'll agree there are a few shortcomings vs just a stand alone arranger of which I have used for so many years till now, but definitly not enough to not do my shows and much more with my current setup.
These manufacturers have to realize the needs of gigging musicians if they want our business, the repetitive wishlist gets longer, the prices go higher & we continue to get nothing but a few crumbs in the way of new designs & upgrades release after release.....weight is a big issue, & my favorite pet peeve is NAVAGATION that makes sense on stage!!!!! .....I hope they are reading this, which I know they are but will they ever do anything substancial? I doubt it.....so instead we have to mix & match.....try out & resell....until we come up with something to our liking to perform with.....its an endless battle that I dont think will end very soon.....do you? :confused"

Good post Don.....I'm right with ya & pretty much agree on all you've said above.....I too love my Midjay/Roland A37/ Bose PAS comb for gigging its so lightweight, super versatile with styles, mp3, wav, smf, sfx, voc, etc etc, the sound is super amazing.....& I'll agree there are a few shortcomings vs just a stand alone arranger of which I have used for so many years till now, but definitly not enough to not do my shows and much more with my current setup.
These manufacturers have to realize the needs of gigging musicians if they want our business, the repetitive wishlist gets longer, the prices go higher & we continue to get nothing but a few crumbs in the way of new designs & upgrades release after release.....weight is a big issue, & my favorite pet peeve is NAVAGATION that makes sense on stage!!!!! .....I hope they are reading this, which I know they are but will they ever do anything substancial? I doubt it.....so instead we have to mix & match.....try out & resell....until we come up with something to our liking to perform with.....its an endless battle that I dont think will end very soon.....do you? :confused"

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-28-2006).]

Ripping off seniors really gets my blood boiling. Ramond Comer, who died last year, was a long time club owner and restaurant owner here in Lexington. About 11 years ago, after having been diagnosed with Alzheimer's, he called in a major panic. A local music store was threatening to take the old man to court over his purchase of a Yamaha Clavinova CPV 65. A really sleazy lady piano player had driven Ray to he store, where he paid $1500.00 down and signed a contract to pay an additional $3,400.00 over 90 days. The woman had promised to play for Ray, but took the piano and a Yamaha tone generator and left the city. He didn't even remember the details of the transaction and was scared to death.

When I contacted the store to explain the situation, They basically told me Ray was "out of luck". They finally agreed to keep the down payment and take back the piano for the balance owed. I negotiated a deal of $1000.00 off the balance due (they really stuck it to him), paid the balance, found the woman in a nearby town and took the piano. It's still the one I use in the office.


The store was the big looser. I filed a complaint with the Consumer Protection Division of the Attorney General's office, reported the store to the local senior citizen's advocate, and insisted that the store fire the salesman and the store manager, which they did.

They are also the local Gibson and Ovation dealer, and, in the last 10 years, they lost over $35,000 in business from me alone, including an order today in excess of $1500.00 for a nylon string Ovation and a double neck Ovation acoustic. Lots of people ask my advice on dealers and instruments. As often as I can I say, "stay away from ******
Music".

Sadly, seniors are often "throw away" people.

Russ

Devil's Advocate time...

As a former MI[musical instrument dealer], I have respect for the operation of Home Piano store dealers[the honest ones]..
They up hold a pricing margin that assures a successful business..

When I started out, I worked for a Hammond organ dealer....They did not give the store away, but with their higher than MI store pricing, they offered concerts, classes, even get togethers[seniors were a large part of sales].

There is a considerable overhead for storefront Music Retail stores..

I believe if the Home Piano stores stay at /or slightly discounted from factory retail prices, and offer the other benefits in the fore-mentioned,,,they are not ripping off their customers...People can still shop and make deals...It is just a case of the mentality of doing business that these dealers will pass and not give the store away..

In the MI business, the return is so poor for many small dealers that they can not sustain or maintain their business..
I can recall many times my competitors selling a keyboard[$1,800 dealer cost] for $1,850......Do the math...less than 3% mark.

My "Keep the doors open" average was 13%...
Recalling the number of small dealers the last 25 years that I knew...more than 90% are gone[including the cut throat dealers].

I use to think "How can these Home Piano stores justify selling at list prices"...the answer I now know...To stay in business and be successful...

Give a good product, service and customer activities...and the Retail price is legitimate..

When you have local dealers that are discounting to you and giving you valuable service....support them..forget On Line dealers....You will always be ahead of the game, service and future purchases will be assured, when you support your local guy[even if it cost you more dollars]..

I've been reading all your posts with great interest and I usually try to stay out of the discussion of music store policy because you all know I own a music store.
Fran hit the nail right on the head. It is really difficult for dealers like myself to make enough profit to keep my head above water.
When I started back in 1970, a 10% discount off retail was considered a good discount and most items were sold at full retail. With the market changing and more large stores opening, the discounts became larger, with 20 to 30% becoming the norm, at least here in the Los Angeles area.
Over the past few years, more and more lower price products have become the main stay of music stores with the occasional high end keyboard sale being way outnumbered by lower price instruments. Mixers, Guitars, Drums, etc. coming from China are great for the consumer, but bad for the dealers. It would be fine if you could sell so many more because of price, but this just isn't the case in most stores, at least in mine. Everyone makes good low end products and now even Best Buy, Costco, etc. are selling these. So, the dollars coming into my store have been shrinking.
I have found a niche market in the high end arranger keyboards, but unless the manufactures keep improving or coming out with new models, even this business shrinks from year to year. Thank goodness for my customers coming from forums like this.
It's a tough environment out there in 2006. I understand from friends in the industry that many of the Piano and Organ stores in areas like Florida who sell to many of the seniors you have been disussing here in this post are feeling this change in our industry, and are having a harder time maintaining that higher profit sale with more service, trade-up and lesson philosophy.
I don't know where things will go in another couple of years, but from my perspective, like Fran says, it's harder and harder to make it as a small dealer any more.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

[This message has been edited by George Kaye (edited 03-28-2006).]

whats he difference between owning a high value car and changing it every other year and owning a high value keyboard and changing it in every other year for the next moodel ? Younger people do it and there is no cry of ripping them off so why is there this outcry for older obviously quite well off people ?

They purchase the organ /keyboard for the same reasons they buy the expensive car surely ? Simply because they kike the fact that they have the latest equipment.
I go to numerous yamaha demos each year an i see the same faces drooling (not because of their age) just like me over the lastest and greatest keyboards. The only difference between them and me is that they attend with their cheque books. If i had their money i would probably do exactly the same. Just because they are older does not mean that they are being ripped off.

Hi Russ,

Please clarify this story a bit. Did this lady work for the store? If not, I have a real hard time justifying the action taken to relieve the salesman and store manager from their jobs. They weren�t the ones who stuck it to the gentleman, it was the lady who drove a sick man to a piano store, got him to purchase an instrument, and then left town with it.

What I do see that is not so good is the fact that the store wanted to keep the full down payment while wiping the remainder clean with the return of the piano. But, how long was this instrument out of the store? Had new models been introduced since the sale? What would be a fair price for the model as a used instrument and does that justify the down payment amount?

Not trying to start anything, I just really want to understand.

Thanks,

Dave

ADDED AFTER THE FACT:
Wait, are you saying that the store employees were in on this from the start? If that's the case then yeah they should be sent packing along with the lady.


[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 03-28-2006).]

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 03-28-2006).]

Hi Don,

I started classical piano lessons at age 5, and then at 13 I moved to jazz improve. I went to college as a piano major. I can play pretty well. Lately I have been doing some blues gigs using my Genesys Pro mainly for acoustic and Rhodes piano sounds. I do sprinkle in the occasional brass, sax, clavinet, etc. but mostly piano. The reason I have been using the Genesys is because many of the places this band plays has very little room to set up in. I have taken my Promega 3 (88 note weighted) with me from time to time, but the extra length of the unit sometimes can be a problem. Sure I love having all 88 keys to work with, and weighted hammer action at that, however I think (actually I will go as far as saying I know) that more experienced players can make due with 61 keys. Yes it's nice to have all 88, or even 76, but a decent keyboard player can make 61 keys work just fine.

A while back the singer wanted to do Crazy. No one in the band had ever played it before (go figure) and I pretty much hate that song but unfortunately I knew it, so... The song went well and everybody loved it. Did anyone in the audience say, what's up with the piano part? Where were the rest of the notes? No. Granted, I would have liked to have had an extra lower octave when it came time for me to do a solo, although I did grab the octave down button once toward the end just for dramatics.

Less face it, an arranger instrument covers the bass part. And normally some of the accompaniment tracks are in the lower and upper registers, so the fact is having 76 or even worse 88 keys available to those who can't play very well only serves to muddy up the total sound because of their lack of experience in knowing what NOT to play.

"There, does that make you feel better?"

lol,

Dave

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 03-28-2006).]

A couple more comments - the sellers who think that selling pianos and electronic keyboards is similar are missing the boat. Pianos, or most other acoustic instruments, are durable goods - with periodic maintenance, they will sound as well or better 30 years from now as they sound today. They can be repaired by any knowledgeable person with the minimum of tools. The same can not be said about electronic keyboards - these have built-in obsolescence, and after 10 years you probably won't find the parts needed to fix even a simple malfunction with an electronic component. Even if parts were available, the software issues can not be fixed unless the fixer has access to and is familiar with the code inside the instrument. In other words, after a few years your electronic instrument becomes worthless. I can justify spending copious amounts of money on something that will last a lifetime, but not on something that will need to be replaced in a few years, because it only has that many years of life built into it.

Of course, the electronic keyboards cost money to produce, and do more things than a real piano. But other than for a few people who gig and make a living with the arranger kbs, high-end electronic instruments are much harder to justify buying.

This is especially true since most keyboards today fall short of the users' wishes and needs. Just look at today's announcement by Roland - The e80 is a 49 lb behemoth, e50/60 look better, but no vocal harmonizer - why? Roland is not the only one - in fact their E80/G70 are in direct competition with Korg. Same features, same shortcomings.

In fact, with the harmonizer, the E50/60 could be in direct competition with PSR 3000, which appeals to the the pros and amateurs alike. If they had only learned to listen...

But back to the issue of pricing - in my experience, many small stores in my area had pricing that was downright ridiculous. I mentioned how they quoted me a price of $7000 for the Technics KN5000, whose dealer invoice was less than $2000 - that is a far cry from the 3% or 10% margin. Knowing that other people paid around $3000 for it (still a pretty decent profit for the dealers), I felt seriously cheated.

While I sympathize with the honest, hardworking dealers need to turn a profit, perhaps the multi-tiered, multi-level sales organizations need revamping - e.g. eliminate the middleman. Look at Roland USA - all they do is make bad marketing decisions, and cause delays in bringing Roland products to the US markets. Why don't the dealers deal with the manufacturers directly? This should be easy in the arranger market, where there are only a few suppliers out there, and with the lower prices/higher margins, and everyone would benefit.

Regards,
Alex

Dave, I was just taking a little subtle shot at cgiles, but he didn't take the bait!
I've been getting by with 61 keys for many years. Sure I prefer 76, but 61 will fool most of the people most of the time.

Thanks,
DonM

Dave...you're right. The employees and this lady were working together preying on old people.

The lady subsequently went to jail for a variety of other hussles. She was originally a geriatric nurse.

The piano was a month old when I contacted the store.

The place isn't any better today...still a bad hussle.


Russ

Hi Don,

I was just having little fun and wasn't really taking a serious shot at Charles. I don't know him, have never heard him play and I don't think I have even read any of his posts.

Like I said, it is sure more fun to have a full 88 note weighted instrument to play on in certain circumstances. But I have seen times when it would have been better for the keyboardist to have been limited to fewer keys. As an example, I saw a guy playing in a four piece group and he was playing so heavy with his left hand that the bass player could have just stopped playing. That is what I meant by knowing when and what not to play.

Regarding your comments on weight, I understand. If the Genesys used a plastic case, got rid of the weights in the keys and lost the CD-R drive, etc. then it could be made lighter. But those features and others are what set it apart from the other offerings. The extra 10lbs. or so doesn't seem all that bad when you consider the advantages. But I still hear what you are saying.

Best Regards,

Dave


------------------
Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 03-29-2006).]

Im still waiting for someone to make a flexible interchangable feature arranger / workstation KB.....that you could buy/add/remove modules for different purposes AS NEEDED.....eg: CD rec/Mp3/Voc Harmony/Sound boards/Sampling/ etc....this would make each unit "YOUR OWN" & mix and match components, removing modules to lighten up the rig for gigging, plug in modules in a studio for recording, editing etc...plus if they KEEP making different modules for MANY different purposes you wouldnt have to keep buying a new KB ...just buy the modules/plugin boards you need for your purposes.....am I Rambling......Dreaming......or Making Sense

Hi Donny,

That sounds like a good idea. But there are several issues from the manufacturer�s point of view that makes this kind of tough and also can be a disadvantage to the consumer.

First the (never become obsolete) notion is a great idea. However, as new features/functions are thought of down the road that require additional hardware, it is still up the original hardware to be able to integrate the new circuitry into the existing system. Yes that can be done to a point, but as new technology is created, most of the time requiring faster processors and vastly more memory, there comes a point when the original hardware won�t be able to support the new circuitry.

Second, it costs a lot of money to design and manufacture these optional hardware upgrades. If the manufacturer does the proper homework on deciding just what to produce, then it�s not so bad. But as is seen in this and other forums, users have many varying ideas of what the proper options are. How many times do you go to a music store and see a case full of expansion modules for various brands of keyboards that are no longer in production? This is partly due to the habit of manufacturers to introduce new products on a more than regular basis. Many time a re-package of older products, but with enough difference to make the old expansion boards obsolete. This causes a problem for the dealer who was overstocked with these expansion boards in the first place, which is yet another reason why the dealer needs to make a profit. It also causes a problem for the end user who purchased an instrument and now wants to sell it but the buyer doesn�t want the expansions that you chose so you either throw the money away and give them to the buyer for free, or you take out the unwanted expansions and they collect dust in your basement for the next 10 years. Another thing to consider is every time there is another non-permanent connection; there is another potential problem of failure.

To think that manufacturers hold back technology just to string consumers along is ridiculous. Of course I can only speak for the manufacturers I have worked for. It takes a long time to design a new product, sometimes several years. Technology does not sit idly by. The design of current electronics products is many times based on technology that is a year or so behind times. When a new technology is introduced, it is possible that the original design has no way of incorporating that new technology, at least without a major re-working of the internal hardware and operating system. All of which costs money and a lot of man hours. Designing a product is a very lengthy and costly process, and manufacturers really do try to make the most of those efforts and expenditures.

I do agree with some of what you and Alex are saying and would love to see some of your ideas implemented. But you have to consider the things that I have pointed out as being the cause for the way things are.

There are alternatives like the PC based keyboards that can accept plug-ins and are somewhat modular. But for me, I have enough problems with my desk PC that has never moved from the desk without the worry of relying on a keyboard at a gig that is running a multitude of third party software.

Just some thoughts.

Dave

Dave thanx for your interesting thoughts it is appreciated.....the underlying message in my previous post is this.....
As we can see and read on this forum day after day, year after year, the wants and needs of KB Players is not forfilled judging by players wish lists, design requests etc etc .....just for example this new Roland E80 was just introduced....the minute I looked at it I said "Hmmmmm nice looking unit".....then I keep reading the specs.......then I see the weight 49LBS & a few other things!!!
Right there for me I will never by one .....I might go try one in a store if you could ever find one .....but a purchase is out of the question.....Why? because it doesnt even come close to MY needs.....
I would love to be in a KB design meeting with one of these companies and express mine & others REAL Needs as a Prof Gigging Musician in the trenches every day so by some unbelievable longshot they might make a unit that would satisfy 50% to 75% of prof musicians & beyond, dont think so? just ask on this forum for a ARRANGER KB WISH LIST & read the answers vs what is on the market.... .......man I need a stiff drink now

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-29-2006).]

the vast majority of these Keyboards are designed for the amateur market, are purchased by the amateur market and marketed to the amateur market. Pro sales make up a tiny percentage of the overall sales. In the amateur market, the weight of the keyboard is not going to be as much of an issue as it would be to the pro market as for the most part the keyboard will sit in the living room for personal entertainment and not gigging use. You cannot seriously expect the keyboard manufacturers to gear their whole marketing proposition to the pro sales when they make so much more from the amateur market .

I own the PA1X and am not in either the pro or fully amateur camp. Its one of the heaviest arrangers on the market. Do i like the weight ? Hell no! Its like going to the gym just carrying it from the car to church. Do i like its functionality , sound, immediate playability (worths latest new word), recordability, flexibility etc etc YES !!! Despite the weight i purchased the board as the features were more useful to me. Many of the pros, even on this board will sue a fraction of the functions on the keyboard to make a good living. Samplers and sound editors and to some extent even fully blown sequencers may not be of benefit to them. But they are to users like me. If the manufatcturers were to heed many of the pros comments , then all they would need is a lightweight controller keyboard and a band in a box type module. But the manufacturers would be bankrupt in a year as this clearly is not what the market that makes themthe most money wants and i for one am grateful for that.

WDMcM,

Since most of us haven't heard or seen any of the GEM products please join us for the jam session in Shreveport LA the weekend of April 28th.

Tom

Spalding,
Your post is right on the mark...pro arranger users are a very small portion of the market.
Ian

Great idea, Tom!
Dave, email me for specifics.
DonM

I am not sure I agree exactly with that statement since many of the members of this forum using arranger instruments consider themselves professionals. But I think I know what you mean. However, remember that this is mostly true of the American market only. In Europe and other countries, the use of top end professional arranger/workstations is much more prevalent.

Dave

If there was any way I could be there I would. But if for no other reason, my son's 3rd birthday is April 29th and needless to say I will not be leaving home of gigging during that time.

Thanks for the offer though.

Dave

Three years ago I commented there are maybe what two, three, four hundred maybe 2000 members here on the forum, give or take a couple of thousand. And really, how many actually makes any money playing professionally?

I bet we have 10,000 keyboards or pianos of some sort in homes in this area of maybe 120,000 people. Maybe 50,000 homes have one in the house. Perhaps 5 or 10 maybe 20 made a nickel playing somewhere sometime. Why I bet there's 500,000 guitars in homes in this valley.

Spalding you're right on the money. Multiply all of this by 6 billion peoples all over the world. Pro keyboard players are a drop in the bucket market wise when it comes to designing and building equipment. I don't care how many keyboards you big time pros buy in a year. Ha! Ha! Maybe you'd have some pull if you bought one a week or every other day. Sorry friends it's just the way the cookie crumbles.
There's a possibility we're wasting our breath. Save it for vocals.

I might just as well voice my wants.

1. Weight 10lbs
2. 61 keys are enough
3. I can live with most of the sounds now available
4. I want every available Jazz, Swing, 50's, 60�s Rock & Roll, and Blues styles that are the very best available from every manufacture�s keyboards today on this unit.
All it would take is a bigger computer chip, No? I mean the plastic, metal; rubber is all the same, No?

Marketing, they want you to keep buying. I�ll say it again. It doesn�t seem to be getting through. It�s great for the economy and sucks for the consumer! It�s what makes the world go round. It's the system.

Do I need a prescription for Prozac? Maybe I need to start drinking? Wish Gary were here. I'd have him send me some of that Kickapoo juice.

Maybe on my next gig, I'll just do "Darn That Dream", "All The Things You Are", "Perdido"
"What's New" and screw "Crazy", "All My X's Live In Texas" and so forth. Then I won't need to worry about upgrading my i30. Heck I won't even need it.

So I guess this professional was just Dreaming?

I agree 100%!!

As professional players we want something that we can stay familiar with (that is the keybed and button layout) and still can up grade the features without buying a new system.

Desk top computers, lap top computers and PDAs are doing that. And they are still coming out with new hardware products which people are buying.


If Ketron can make the midjay only 7LBs (which has all the computer componants of the keyboard) there is no reason why arranger manufacturers can not make a 76 key arranger that is less than 30LBS.

The reasoning that we should settle for 61 keys even if we really want 76 keys shows how much work we have to do so that arranger manufacturers would start making arrangers with our needs.

I just hope they don't take that reasoning and start making 49 key arrangers and say 61 would be nice but you can do with just 49.

Its time for arranger manufacturers to stop saying how hard it is to make arrangers, and start making arrangers with features that professionals need.

To the genesis:

I fully agree with your sentiment. My ideal form factor would be 76 (or even 73) keys with small speakers (for personal monitoring and low-volume practice), weighing under 35 lbs. Forget floppy disks - just give us USB A and B ports to connect thumb-drives or external USB devices. A hard drive would be useful, but not necessary.

Instead of saying how hard it is to make arrnagers, the manufacturers should do things right the first time - it will cost them much less in the long run.

I think Roland and Korg (and perhaps others) should take their que from Yamaha - they have developed a good operating system some 10 years ago, and it remains basicaly unchanged from PSR 7000. A Yamaha player would find his way around Tyros2 as easily as around PSR3000. By reusing their good operating system, Yamaha is able to derive higher profits from each unit sold. Even if the improvement is only in the quality of sounds and styles (forgetting the goofy corners on T2), the low learning curve makes it easy to upgrade. I bet if Roland (and Korg) were not trying to nickel-and-dime the users by saving a few buttons, and had reused the OS of E70 (the most user-friendly Roland ever built - remember it way back from 1991 ?), it would have cost them a lot less to roll out each new model, and keeping customers happy, they'd be able to sell a lot more instruments. Similarly, Korg should have kept the user-friendliness of I30 in its PA series.

Regards,
Alex

Boy I see how passionate this topic really is .....& I hope the manufacturers are reading these posts also, it's all we can do to keep plugging along repeating our wishlists, showing our dismay or agreement buy sales, we must also consider this topic as a broader WORLDWIDE user issue because eveyone wants & needs something different for the msuic they make....
but after a while you can start seeing by average majority requests....what most people want in a KB.....eventually somethings gotta give...I Hope

I am based in Birmingham in the UK. The 1 man band market is very very small.Dont know about the rest of Europe.But here most of the players are hobbyists.I have been to most of the demos of he new keyboards when they come to the Westmidlands and the vast majority of the people who attend are pensioners with lots of money but hey are into their toys in a big way.They tend to upgrade their instrumenst every year or so chasing the latest technological breakthrough which is more often than not yet another repackaged keyboard. Most of tyhe younger peole hat i know want a yammie motif or roland fantom .They have very little knowledge of arranger keyboards. The restaurants and small pubs and wine bars over here are ripe for the aranger market as the performers are far more affordable than a live band and more exclusive which adds to the apeal of a restaurant. I have been approached to play at several restaurants but i cant sacrifice the time. If only more could be done about the image of arrangers and their profile.

When people hear & see an Arranger KB artist playing there is a hugh amount of Music &/or Singing to Absorb to the senses...with the influx of so many other hightech ways to make music that people are now exposed to its sometimes a bit hard to "believe" so to speak that only ONE PERSON can be doing all this music vs the thought of a DJ/karaoke/ Backing trax etc etc which they see all the time in bars, weddings etc...lets face it gigging Arranger artists are a minority & this compared to years ago when the hightech competition wasnt an issue & more people played more less computer driven music....
Are we accepted? Yes......Are we believed? most times? Are we dwindling out? very slowly.....can we extend our exsistence? if you find your niche` in the music world.....
There are two battlefronts within this topic......being accepted/respected by other Musicians........& being accepted/respected by by the audience.......time will tell

Donny,
If you have Keyboard Magazine, March 2006 issue, take a look at page 16.

Kind of on this subject, but not arranger-specific, Scott Healy wrote a small article that I found interesting titled "Think Globally, Gig Locally".

He hits on things like playing the gigs in the pre-digital stone age (150lb Fender Rhodes, Ouch!) and the abundance of work for musicians during those times.
But, he says, we are not an endangered species.



[This message has been edited by MrEd (edited 03-30-2006).]

Actually the situation here in Hilton Head, South Carolina is pretty much the same as Spalding's in the UK... I don't know of anyone local using arrangers except me. There's lots of solo guitar/singers here that use drum machines and those phrase loopers that seem to be popular. A few solo/duo acts I know use midi files here and there.

The few music stores in my entire region all carry the most stereotypical products, usually in a setting that is dominated by guitarists blasting in one corner while hip-hop wanna-bes and rabid kids unleash mayhem in the other. That's the worst place to try out keyboards usually.

I've just accepted that I have very specialized needs and that no local store is going to carry what I use or be as well educated about the products in question as I am. I have no brand loyalty at all and no single source for my purchases. Everything I buy is via internet except for the few purchases I make when I travel. I do base purchases on price because once I buy something my relationship with who I buy from is usually done. With free shipping and no sales tax, the internet is my local music store.