Yesterday Fran & I & my lovely wife went to breakfast & then aftewards decided to visit two of the biggest Music chain stores in the country to see whats new in KB's, whats hot, and demo a few different KB's & gear..........to my dissapointment they had a very very little selection of arrangers other then LOWEND Yamaha, Casio, & one PA50....THATS IT!!!!
all other were workstaions like the Fanthom, Triton, Motif, etc etc and a few electric pianos, nothing NEW....& forget about seeing or playing anything we talk about on here like the Tyros, 3k, PAX, G70, SD-1, Genesys, etc.....it just seems other then the internet it has become a lost art form to find & try an arranger KB....on top of that even if you bought a workstation with all the fancy appegiators, sampling, loops, etc, etc, you have to be a scientist to learn how to operate one besides being a good musician.......plus as I played some of these workstations they really seem to be all geared to hip hop, jazzy, new age, alternative type rythyms & sounds, & how you learn how to use this technology is way beyond the MANUAL.........seems like Arranger style playing is taking a backseat to creating your own SMF files in the future.....Ive been playing all my life and have seen many changes thrui the years but I have a bad feeling about what is happening in regards to
arragner KB playing in the future performing swing, foxtrot, chacha, rumba, polka, waltz, rock, disco, ballads,etc etc in the way we are used to in the coming years......technology is changing fast, & so is the gear we use to make music......I guess you have to settle with what we have OR start embracing new technology in the way you play & the way you operate your instrument.....this visit was a wake up call for me........
get ready my friends, "ITS COMING & GOING FAST" go to the biggest music store in your area and see what I mean, it's sad!!


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-25-2006).]

Then come to a small music store like mine, Kaye's Music Scene and you will see all the top arranger keyboards and the Motifs, Fantoms, Tritons and electric pianos. There are still many like me, trying our hardest to give musicians someting different then the big chain stores promote.
It's like going to a shopping mall here in Calilfornia. There are a ton of them and they all have the same stores, the same resteraunts, etc. etc.
When we shoppers stop supporting the small individual stores, whether music, hardware, camera, etc, and the specialty shops dissapear, then I will agree with DNJ that perhaps we will have little choice but to adapt to this new way of shopping and and being forced to buy what the few big stores will want you to buy because they don't have the sales force to be able to properly show and sell all the products but rather just the few most of these younger salespeople know how to use. This has been a sore spot since the chain stores have developed into such large players. Just look at the age of the average salesperson. I'm a 55 year old man who owns and loves running a music store, but do you think GuitarCenter or Sam Ash will higher many over 30 years old? I very much doubt it. And so, there lies many of the problems we confront in 2006. I sure wish we could go back to 1980 in the music store business. This decade was by far the most exciting and fun times in my 36 year history. There was only 2 guitar centers and Sam Ash was a few stores in New York.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

George ......if it wasnt a 3000 mile ride to your store for me I'd be there everyday...or even be a Demonsrator/Salesman for ya for sure.....what you say is true and happening all over the country. Every town is a CLONE of the next one , look around you.......1 Home Depot, 1 Lowes, 1 Walmart, 1 Sams Club, Costco, Malls, McDonalds, Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, Burger King, everywhere !!!!

I really miss the mom & pop stores ......going to a music store in the 60's 70's 80's was like going to
Disneyand ....ahhhhh whats the use?

George thanx for the reply hang in there buddy!

And on top of it, the personnel in those top chain stores NEVER (capital N) know anything about the keyboards, especially the arrangers.

If you browse around in there for a while, pay attention to the conversations that the personnel are engaged in.

They must be making the money that they expect because this problem is so consistent accross the chains and nothing from top management is done about it. You would think that top officials would make trips and lurk around, just to see what is going on, even ask common questions about certain products as to see how well the personnel knows the products. If they took only 25% of their idle chit-chat time and applied that time to looking over spec sheets, a manual or two, they would be over double their capacity to assist customers.

I buy the little junk odds and ends out of there because of the convenience, but I learn more about right here at the zone.

I happened to be in one of these chain stores to pick up a Keyboard magazine. It was at the time that I was planning to buy a PSR3000. I already knew that George way over in California, who has provided so much detail and assistance about all sorts of products right here at the zone, deserved my business more than anyone local to me. But I just wanted to hear the 3000. Well it was hanging on the wall rack, without the power chord. I walked over to the area where personnel was, stood there for just a minute. They continued talking about their own playing and related experiences so I walked away, not mad, but more confirmed that they are not deserving of the big dollars that I spend, even if they can save me a few nickels. By the way, when I bought the 3000 from George, I got a better price with it.

Thank you Donny, for opening the door to vent out my frustrations on this subject. I'm feeling much better now and should be good until 2007.

Eddie...your very welcome...seems Im not alone on this topic.....its a shame whats going on out there....we have to take care of our own here

Donny ... there is a new career for you ... you're young enough ... open a music store and stock it with arrangers of every make, shape, size and dollar amount ... and in your SPARE time you can play every one of these boards ...
I'll even drive down from RI to try them ...
t.

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 03-25-2006).]

I was in Tulsa a couple of weeks ago and saw a Guitar Center, so I stopped in. I asked if they had a Tyros 2 and the salesman said sure. He took me to a Tyros. He didn't even know there WAS a Tyros 2 out.
Except for the Tyros, they had some smaller Yamahas and a couple of Casios.
My dealer here quit stocking arrangers because of lack of interest. I tried to tell him he had to generate the interest. He said if he had to go to all that trouble, he'd prefer to spend the time promoting Grand Pianos, on which he can still make a decent profit. Every time I go there he offers me a job, so I don't go very often anymore
DonM

You know, the situation described above is not the fault of the big box stores. If so many US consumers weren't so obsessed with going to extremes in finding the absolutely lowest price as opposed to accepting a fair price from their local dealer, and if certain manufacturers stopped selling their products at greatly reduced prices to the large chain stores giving them a huge price advantage over independent retailers, and if the independent dealers would stick to their own territory and discontinue shipping product out of state at a price lower that the local retail store who probably demonstrated the instrument in the first place, and...... There are a lot more if's that contribute to the problem.

The local independent retailer can hardly survive running his store by himself much less pay a decent wage to a staff of knowledgeable professional salespeople. And the practice by consumers of using the local retailer as a showroom for a mail order purchase is just wrong.

Learning to operate an arranger keyboard is just as hard as learning how to operate any of the so-called professional workstations. To expect a big box store minimum wage employee who is only there for the employee discount to sit down and read manuals and learn everything there is to know about the instruments he clerks, uh…sells, well it’s just not going to happen that often. Of course that is not a global statement. I will say that I have run into a number of employees at these types of stores that I consider professional salesman, but they are far and few between.

Many of the same people who complain about these issues are the very same people who are perpetuating the entire situation. Having been in this business for a long time, I think the problem started at the manufacturer level. As it became common for certain manufacturers to introduce (or re-package) products every 6 months or so, they had to come up with a way to clear the warehouses of the old models. In some cases the discounts on discontinued products were offered to all dealers, but the only ones who could afford to purchase the large quantities required were the larger stores. That introduced deep discounts to the musical instrument consumer and it has grown into the problem as it exists today.

Luckily there are some manufacturers that are doing their best to correct the problem by running their business in a way that will allow the independent dealer to make a fair profit in order to be able to afford a good staff of employees. But if the consumers don’t start changing their ways, then the efforts of these manufacturers will be for nothing.

Sorry if this offends anyone. But if you are offended, it is probably because you are guilty.

Then there is the question as to why arranger keyboards are not as prevalent in the US as they are in the European countries and elsewhere. Perhaps it is because here in the US, a large number of people playing arranger keyboards started when organs with auto-accompaniment were the all the rage and the usual method of play is to use the single fingered chord mode and a simple melody. This is NOT to say that there is anything wrong with that nor is it a global statement. There are certainly many arranger players here that are more experienced players and use the full capabilities of their instrument. But many times it is either electric chord organ technique or playing to SMF’s, mp3’s or Karaoke CD’s and just standing there singing or maybe plucking a note here or there. Again, there is nothing wrong with that. The important thing is if you are having fun and the audience is enjoying the performance.

On the other hand, arranger players in other countries tend to use the full capabilities of the instrument by playing full left hand chords while also using the pitch bend and mod wheels to add articulation to solo instruments rather than using built-in pre-assigned multi-samples for automatic (but not as desirable as doing it yourself) articulation. There are many younger arranger players who play in bars and other venues that have made the one man band idea much more accepted.

But as we here in the US keep moving along I am hopeful that arranger/workstations will take their well deserved place on the pro keyboard wall of every keyboard store.

Dave


[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 03-25-2006).]

Dave.....as I cant agree with some of what your saying.....because there is much more to his problem if it really is a problem?
or maybe its something else......if you cant go find, see, touch, feel & play something before you buy it, most people will not spend big bucks to get one sight unseen....lets take the Genesys arrangers for example, might be the greatest Kb on earth....I'd love to try one ....but can I find one here in my area without driving hundreds of miles? no.....& I live between New York, Philadelphia, .......let me get my hands on one in a store sit down for a few hours, [play it....if I like it I buy it....but no I have to do it other ways like internet, 30 day return policies, bad advice from others, etc etc etc ....theres more to this problem....how musicians use the KB after they buy it is their perogative using any or all features within the unit.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Dnj:
Dave.....as I cant agree with some of what your saying.....because there is much more to his problem if it really is a problem?
or maybe its something else......if you cant go find, see, touch, feel & play something before you buy it, most people will not spend big bucks to get one sight unseen....lets take the Genesys arrangers for example, might be the greatest Kb on earth....I'd love to try one ....but can I find one here in my area without driving hundreds of miles? no.....& I live between New York, Philadelphia, .......let me get my hands on one in a store sit down for a few hours, [play it....if I like it I buy it....but no I have to do it other ways like internet, 30 day return policies, bad advice from others, etc etc etc ....theres more to this problem....how musicians use the KB after they buy it is their perogative using any or all features within the unit.[/QUOTE]

Actually, and I am fairly certain you are aware of this, there is a GEM dealer who I know stocks the Genesys that is only 33 miles from the intersection of I-95 (Jersey Turnpike) and I-195 in Toms River. He has been there for at least two years.

And I think most are aware that if a dealer is not in a close enough location, we offer a direct purchase with a return policy. This is only for folks that have no dealer close by.

As I said, as long as the person doing the playing is having fun, that is all that is important. If they choose to perform in public and get a good reception, it doesn’t matter how proficient of a keyboard player or singer they are, as long as they are accepted that’s great.

But one of the points in your first post has to do with the apparent lack of arranger interest at the retail level. And I expressed an opinion based on the experience I have gained of traveling across the US visiting GEM and non-GEM dealers as well as the connections I have in Europe and other countries.

Another issue that was brought up is the lack of knowledge of the salespeople on arranger instruments and again I was just offering an opinion as to at least one reason why.

If anyone reading my last post is guilty of the things I mentioned it is up to them to be honest with themselves and decide if they want to take a stand against it for the betterment of the industry as a whole. Eventually the prices are going to get so ridiculously low that the manufacturers will not be able to devote monies to future R&D and then that will be the end.

PLEASE NOTE: I am not trying to be argumentative so if it sounds like that, I’m sorry. Also note that I have left off my signature and did not mention GEM in my ititial post. The issues being discussed are across the board as it were. Altough GEM is one of the companies that is trying very hard to bring it's little part of the industry back to better days.

Dave