I have a friend that is a great player but can't grasp the operating parameters of Working his Arranger KB....This seems to be a problem for alot of people. Its hard enough to learn how to just play proficiently, but then you also have to throw in Operating the KB into the mix. Playin while pushing buttons at the same time....These two seperate procedures at the same time create a delicate balancing act that some people find very difficuly, especially if you are new to computers also. I was lucky to have been there thruout the progression along the way of the Arranger KB evolution learnig things as the became available.But some newer players have to start it all at once.
What makes playing an Arranger KB difficult for you... playing or operation of the features? And what can be done to make it less difficult to play ?




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-17-2004).]

DNJ,

Good point. What I have to say is that keyboard manufacturers need to make it easier on us. In my opinion, all "performance" functions must have dedicated buttons or sliders. For example, dedicated volume sliders (8 at least), dedicated transpose buttons.

At the same time, musicians need to embrace technology and expand their horizon. They need to learn new tricks and practice these new tricks. Those who say "can't teach old dog new tricks" will lose at the end.

sk880,.....

your right on track...will be interesting to read others opinions on this topic for sure....thanx for the reply

nardon....

I feel for you my friend....this arranger keyboard playing, operating, singing, all together is sometimes a difficult task in different ways to EACH OF US....I am still learning everyday at home & on stage after 35 yrs....learning from each other is another great way to fill the voids in a persons learning process...thats why these forums are so important. What I do good might benefit you and others....what you do well might benefit me and on & on.

------------------
www.donnypesce.com

nardoni2002, No thanks!
I've seen computer software that operates like this and it just does not suit me, personally. I don't want to learn something I don't enjoy/want/need just to reach the things I do enjoy/want/need... nope, not where my €€€ would go.

Good point, Donny. I've had an AK for only one year and just started playing out at senior facilities. What I thought was going to be a 'piece of cake' (keyboard operation), wasn't. Playing, operating the system, coping my newest hurdle - singing, is very challenging... especially when everything has to be done simultaneously and made to look smoth and easy. BTW, this brings up a strong case for playlists with SMFs, but unfortunately, that leaves much to be desired, like spontanaity, requests, keeping them on the dance floor, etc.

What can be done? The first thing that comes to my mind is the keys. After spending most of my life banging out heavy duty honky-tonk, rock, and gospel piano, and busting many keys in the process, then going to the DX7, then Roland XP-80 (excellent keys), I feel I have to now 'baby' my playing on the AK, which kind of stiffles my playing. Altho my SD1 has better keys than many AK, it still has much to be desired.

Secondly, the logic of layout could be improved on most all AK, a subject that's been discussed here. The thing that bugs me most on the SD1 is the 'break' button sitting right next to (quarter inch) the 'To End' button! 'Why'd you stop playing in the middle of the song? That's my favorite!' Duhhhh!?!

So much could be improved on these KB by having the manufacturers take into account more input from KB players. From my observations, Ketron seems to listen to us more than the others.

From my standpoint, the keyboard is not all that complex--it's the lousy, poorly written manuals that come with them that makes using these wonderful machines so difficult.

I sincerely believe, however, that those of us who sing have the edge when it comes to operating the keyboard on the fly. Non singers must constantly use both hands in order to entertain their audience, therefore, they cannot select the next song from the keyboard's internal memory before ending the song they're currently performing. This leads to extended periods of dead time between songs, which from my standpoint, should be limited to three seconds or less. If it takes more than three seconds to select the next number, you've lost the audience.

Yes, keyboards have become more complex. However, those that have taken the time to continuously explore the inner workings of their system find that this is the most incredible device for entertainer/musicians that is available today. Just 20 years ago, when I had nothing more than a six-string guitar, a lousy amp and more guts than tallent, drum machines came out, and everyone said they were really neat but too complicated. Now, two decades later, technologically, we're light-years ahead. Now if they would only find good manual writers I for one would be a happy person.

Gary

I agree with Gary. Poorly written manuals are one of your worst enemies. Although in my many years of owning Technics, I never touched the manuals at all since everything was pretty self-explanatory.

I do need tons of help with the Triton Studio though.

I think they need to put some 'common' people/musicians in the programming team. So not only the keyboard has an awesome programming power, but also it can relate to 'normal' and general audience.

JIMO.

I also agree with Gary.

In order to keep your mind sharp and not become stale you must constantly keep learning.

At work, in order to keep up, I have to learn Excel, Access, Word etc. along with all the other programs that make my job easier. The operators on the plant floor learned on a basic lathe, however they are now programming CNC machines operating Co-ordinate measuring machines, computers, & digital measuring equipment. They must do this to provide the customer a better product. If they don't someone else will. The Chinese have no problem learning the new technology and taking away the US jobs.

Don't be a DoDo bird. Keep learning and improving. The end result is very rewarding.

Jerry

A dealer once told me one his customers bought a new board approx every 2 years, the dealer would deliver it and collect the previous model. Each time he said the par-exchange board was still setup as he originally delivered it 2 year before.
I know some home players who never load new styles...never save registrations...basically never alter anything...just switch on and play. I am not sure why they buy these top of the range boards with all the bells and whistles in the first place ????.

Graham UK

At 60 years of age, everything related to technology that I learned in high school or college is obsolete.

My degree is in Journalism and Advertising. I remember learning how Linotype machines worked. There were no home computers. Ad layouts were done by hand with clip art from large books. Photography was done with a real camera and I learned to develop and print balck and white photos in the darkroom. Color darkrooms were too expensive to consider.

I did have an electric typewriter, but they were still quite expensive. I learned in high school on a manual.

My first "keyboard", in 1965, other than a piano at home was a Lowery organ. All it did was play organ sounds. In order to amplify it we wired an output to an external amp. It weighed a ton, and really didn't even have a good organ sound!

Now, like many of the others here, I can assemble a computer from parts, build and maintain my own website, make a digital photo, edit it, print it, or send it to anyplace in the world in minutes.

I can create my own CD, complete with cover and insert, for literally pennies.

The list could go on and on, but you get the picture. And I am far from unique, and far from the most accomplished "techie", even here on our own little forum.

As Gary so eloquently said, we must embrace the technology or be left in the backwash of those who do.

Make those keyboards as complicated as you want. I'll figure 'em out where others may not make the effort. Edge to me. Still, they must be easy to operate once you DO figure them out.

DonM www.donmasonmusic.com

Manuals are just a starting place. You really want to learn about keyboards? Synthzone is the place...and for PSR's and Tyros, you can't beat Joe's PSR Tutorial site. No where will you get more concise information and personal responses to any question you may have.

As for the technology, I played a PSR 5700 & Roland E20 on a double stand for about 9 years. It took awhile to learn how to operate these two vastly different KBs simultaneously. I then moved to a single PSR 9000 and had to learn a whole new OS. Then, to reduce the weight, I got a 740. Another learning curve to conquer. Then the 2000...a whole nuther animal.

When I went to sell the 740, I had trouble remembering how to operate it to demo it to the buyer. Guys like George Kaye, DanO and others that really learn the ins and outs of a variety of KBs are to be commended. Very few sales guys I have ever talked with seem to know much about even one.

Eddie

Hello............It has taken years of practice to play well on a keyboard. Why would one expect to learn how to operate a keyboard overnight? If all you had to do was press one button to sound like Yanni, anyone in your audience could walk up and outshine you. In today's world of "instant gratification" it's easy to be dissapointed in the operating learning curves of todays instruments. The technology changes so often it's hard to keep up. Sure...........maybe the manuals could be written better, but with all the online forums and websites available I've never asked a question that wasn't replied to...........usually within 24 hours. I've learned more online than from any manual! But the best teacher is YOU! Learn by doing! Nothing's gonna blow up if you push a wrong button...........Experiment!! You might actually learn something that way...............charley

I agree with the fact that the fill button has no business next to the ending button. There's lots of other buttons where it could be placed next to that wouldn't cause such a drastic change.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure simple things such as this out. It shows a case of carelessness and lazyness maybe if not stupidity.

I had a Dodge truck that every time you pulled the brake release handle, the brake pedal would just about knock you fingers off of your hand. Why put the realease handle anywhere near the pedal that flys up at maybe 150 miles an hour?

I have a 1991 Ford F250 4X4. If you're on the job site in the winter or after a rain and drive off in 4 wheel drive and then shift out of four wheel drive and you forget to close the ash try (I don't smoke but the ash tray was opened anyway) You could break a finger between the shift handle and the ash tray door when they collide against one another.

I mean these are engineers designing these things. What are they doing when they do the designs. Maybe they're playing computer games at that time too!

If I built my brick walls like some of these engineers design things, after 35 years my walls would be falling down killing people.

It shows a lack of something. What's the word I'm looking for DonM or Gary. Don went to college and Gary writes for a magazine.

Sometimes I'm too intimidated by these guys to even try commenting here. Us Cajuns we cheated to get through High School by the hardest.

Boo,

I think the term you looking for is "common sense." My dad had a couple sayings that always ring true--especially today. He said "The average person seems to be well below average and common sense isn't very common these days."

Cheers,

Gary

Hi Dnj

Good question.

Yesterday I bought an old Yamie arranger PSR5700 that seems a brandnew kbd.
I installed the old grandfather in a double Ultimate stand and made the mid conection with my Psr 2000.
Just some tips:
The grandfather made 7 or 8 years ago, is easy to operate and play, when compared with PSR 2000 with some features that I loved.
Individual buttons for each control (No pages and sub pages,and sub pages,etc)
Slide controls for each volume.
Perfect keys touch (I think that is the same of DX7 synth)= OH new PSR: whata shame!!
I always love the eletronic development but some features as individual controls are important for live musicians, IMO.
Regards
Chico

Ah yes....Chico..I certainly remember the Psr5700 for sure...I also think Gary Diamond[travlin easy] played one or a while on stage also....it was and still is a classic in the Arranger KB archives to this day.

Stay well

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-18-2004).]

I find the PSR2k so much easier to use than the PSR630. But you need to be happy with menu's!

Donny,
If your friend is a good musician, he could begin using the arranger in a very simple manner and, little by little, discover all the advanced possibilities. That was my strategy when I started playing, many years ago. A good and simple way to start would be turning the "drum machine" on, playing bass with the left hand and melody/comping with the right hand (piano, electric piano). A good musician should make this sound like a trio, almost immediately.
-- José.

I read manual only if I have to. Basicly because manuals very rarely answers my question. So far I've managed with PSR2K much better than with 740 before.

Luckily today we have PSRtutorial and synthzone!!

Yambox....the 2k is a fantastic Kb...just keep digin into it deeper and deeper, it will treat you well for sure!,

Hmmmm, fantastic? Maybe great SOUNDING, but it's hardly fantastic. Maybe if it had piano sized KEYS it could be considered worthy of that accolade. It seems that the most basic requirement for a KEYboard is good keys, right?

(I know, I know ...... we don't all agree here, but I'm sad about how poorly my birds played yesterday. I have to vent ! grrrr)

Hi,
I tend to think manuals are the biggest problem.
If they included a Workshop ( for want of a better word) in the form of a video or DVD it might help.
Years back the local store used to pay me to do one on one sessions with new ( mainly )korg workstation/arranger owners, ie to go through the workings of the board..
It worked out better for the store , to have me spend an hour with a customer( that hadn't used this type of equipment before) than for the keyboard salesman to get tied up with trying to answer questions over the phone.

In most cases that one hour or so, was enough to get them up and running. I also spent time in going thru the manual with them, and marking the spots that were of importance to them ie recording on the sequencer etc etc, so that if they couldn't remember how to do it exactly, they'd just look it up in the manual to refresh their memory.
I'd give them my ph. no. if they got totally stuck, or if they wanted to spend extra time going into more depth, they'd pay me themselves.
Most knew what it was they wanted to do with their boards, just didn't have the time to spend, reading the first 50 pages of a manual just to learn how to switch the darn things on.

best wishes
Rikki

Dave,

Stick with Adkins, your fingers will soon be long and skinny, then you won't have a problem with the keys.

Gary

Nope. I want full size. Real size. The RIGHT size. These are keyboards - they were built on the piano premise. They imitate .... aw what's the use? No one else cares anyway.

I measured the Yamaha yesterday. The span between the C and the E key one octave higher is close to 1/4" shorter than the PA60 and the Technics KN7000 at the local store.

Also, which doesn't make a difference in actual playing ability to me, is that the Korg PA60 has 1/4" shorter black keys. that measuring from the tip of the black key to the back of the key. I didn't check the white keys for length.

You can tell just by glancing back and forth from the PA to the other boards. I wonder who engineers this stuff.

"Hmmmm, fantastic? Maybe great SOUNDING, but it's hardly fantastic."

I agree with DNJ--the 2000/2100 is a FANTASTIC keyboard. It has more features than anyone can imagine, many of which never are discovered by their owners. If this keyboard would have come on the market 10 years ago, it would have sold for five times as much money.

Keyboards are a lot like cameras. What comes out of them is solely up to the person operating them. That 2000/2100 is sure making a large number of folks a good deal of money. I know at least 50 people that have them and with the exception of a few, most are fascinated about every feature this keyboard has to offer--including me!

I've seen UD perform, and while he gripes continously about the key size, it's amazing just how good he makes his keyboards sound. Would bigger keys make him a better player? I doubt it--but he have one less complaint about Yamaha keyboards.

Without the technology that Yamaha has provided in this facet of the music industry, most of us would be struggling to make enough money to pay for the equipment. I for one will never go back to strumming a 12-sting guitar, triggering a drum machine with a foot switch and playing in smoke-filled bars. Yamaha revolutionized this industry, and IMO, they are clearly the leader when it comes to introducing lightweight, compact, rugged, versitile, great sounding keyboards.

Cheers,

Gary

[This message has been edited by travlin'easy (edited 01-20-2004).]

Where is it written universally that "electronic" or any other "keyboards" must have a key size based on a piano premise?? Maybe piano players cannot adapt?? I've played pipe and electric organs for years and the keyboards key spacing can vary greatly. Many organ builders have agreed on an AGO standard, but not all of them! Piano playing technique is entirely different than any pipe organ, and even though many electronic keyboards have touch response it's still not the same. Reading thru many past forums I also see many piano players having to replace the key assembly because their key pounding can wear them out prematurely. I imagine organ players don't wear them out as soon due to a different key technique. We are victims of our own experiences and varied techniques. As another comparison I have played trumpet and cornet for 20+ years. The valve spacing can vary from brand to brand on them too..................
I've always admired musicians that can play many different instruments. Talk about adapting....................... !!!

Rattley: VERY well Stated.
I'd like to add my comments to this same subject, but more specifically in regards to acoustic piano playing.

No matter how you slice (or more fittingly, pound) it, absolutely no 'arranger' keyboard's keys ever produced (Yamaha, Korg, Technics, Roland, Ketron, GEM, etc) even comes close to feeling like or responding to the way a fully weighted action with full sized keys on a acoustic piano's does. . . . period !

Even so called weighted action digital pianos don't feel like real pianos. "Touch Sensitivity" and "Weighted Action" is not the same thing as the sophisticated inner mechanism, or "action", of an acoustic piano. Digital pianos merely simulate the touch of pianos. They don't provide the same feedback or responsiveness to your playing, so your performance range is limited.

I realized long ago that arranger keyboards are primarily targeted to the home hobbyist and not the traditional keyboard pro musician. The unique advantage of the arranger keyboard for the professional solo performing keyboard musician though is that it offers a complete keyboard with a complete backup band in a self contained lightweight 'portable' (under 30 lb) package. I've noticed that most arranger keyboard players don't come from a traditional piano playing background, but more often from an accordion or organ playing background. Both the accordion & organ are instruments particularly suited to solo performance because they allow you to emulate many different types of sounds (instruments), via registers. The arranger keyboard being just the next giant step in this evolvement.

As far as the arranger key size issue goes, one possible reason Yamaha chose the slightly narrower keys may be to help keep the overall length (size) of the keyboard down, which also affords convenient (within easy arms reach) access to all its arranger function buttons. Some of you may laugh off the Yamaha keyboards as just toys , but it's 100% professional to me because I'm able to make a living with it.

When playing an acoustic piano (especially a Grand), it's a whole "different" playing experience than with auto-accompaniment arranger keyboard playing so both require a very different playing technique & playing approach. Once one accepts the fact that an arranger is no more similar to a piano than an accordion is to the organ, it will become a lot easier to adapt to each and enjoy playing them for the unique abilities each has to offer, and this includes the Yamaha arrangers, of course.

Scott

Yesterday did I really see just one intro and one ending on a Yamaha 2000, or was it a 2100? am I dreaming this? I'm sure I only saw one button for each. Just curios.

Boo,

There is only one intro and one ending button, however, there is a screen driven menu that permits the selection of intro and ending A,B & C, and with some styles you can also have a D as well. When you save the information in a registration slot, then recall it, the intro and ending you selected will be saved as well. Kinda' neat!

Gary

Hello Gary............. a D ending on my PSR2000?? I've never encountered that monster! Can you send me a style with 4 endings please or tell me how to create one. Thanks. - charley

Well said rattley, Scottyee. I agree

I'll have to dig into the archives Charlie. I discovered this while using one of Michael Bedesem's programs.

Gary