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#178881 - 12/28/01 05:42 AM DEBATE - are styles useful or not?
JimJamJammin Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 78
Loc: Surrey, England
This may have been discussed before, but I was wondering what people think of having styles/accompaniments on higher range keyboards such as the PSR2000. There's about 200 styles, but I honestly can't think of any use for them apart from a drum beat for a little rhythm.

Styles are great for beginners, don't get me wrong, because they do a little bit of the work for the player - therefore styles are suitable for cheaper keyboards. However, what use are they to more skilled players? It's probably why you rarely find styles on synthesizers, because only advanced musicians are going to buy them.

I would really like to know of any use of the styles apart from generally 'dossing about' with them. I'm sure someone out there disagrees with me.
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Jamie Frost

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#178882 - 12/28/01 07:35 AM Re: DEBATE - are styles useful or not?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
JimJam,
You're missing the whole point of arranger keyboards. First of all - styles are the very essence of the unit. It's WHYwe buy them. We use these arrangers to help emulate the other musicians that cannot be present at the performance -- whether it's a paying gig or a barbecue at home. How many hands do YOU have??????

Second - the PSR2000 is not in the "high" end of the lineup -- it's a modest entry that has a lot of "punch" and that's what enables a lot of us pros to use it on "real" playing gigs. If you think only "advanced players" use synths -- you're very wrong. Synths are fast becoming a toy for many UNskilled "wannabes" because they sound cool. You'll find that the only difference between a "pro keyboard" and a "toy" these days - is in the application. There are lots of ways to make terrific music with a number of products that would surprise you.

A skilled player will be able to take ANY tool and make music from it.
Your comments are out of line at this forum, because many of use arrangers as a tool for earning our living. This is a haven for players (REAL players) that use styles, rhythms, and sounds to provide backing music for us to entertain with. Please don't make any presumptions about our skill levels because we play a board that doesn't measure up to YOUR standards.

Let me ask you a question - WHAT exactly, made you look at the psr lineup at all? Every one of the psr line up right up to the top dog (9000) is loaded with styles, and is marketed to utilize them to make music? If you just want a synth to create sounds -- then go ahead and buy one, but please don't assume that users of arranger keyboards are beginners or just "dossing about" (whatever THAT means).

Before this gets into a heated argument about things that cannot have ANY real value - why not do us all a favor and just delete this topic. My response will go along with it - and no one will be any worse for the the wear. Think about it .... AND your words before you make another challange to this VERY talented and passionate group. We're here to help each other - NOT create tension or boast.
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#178883 - 12/28/01 08:27 AM Re: DEBATE - are styles useful or not?
sk880user Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 1255
Loc: United States
There is great misunderstanding or misconception about styles. Many think they are not professional to use. In fact, I dare say that some may think that if a keyboard is not full-fledged synth, its user must not be professional.

If you compare Yamaha Motif and PSR9000PRO, they have similar if not identical sounds. So no one can say that Motif is more professional than PSR9000PRO in sound quality.


I would like to go over some of the misconceptions about styles... one by one:

1) Styles are for those who do not know how to play good music so they need a tool to simplify the music performance to them.

Actually, I have seen all kind of people. I have seen top musicians using styles and I have lousy keyboard players embracing their non-arranger synth/workstation keyboard. It is not that these arranger-keyboard musicians cannot perform well but that Styles offer them and their audience an experience that cannot be had by non-arranger keyboards.

2) Styles make playing music easier and therefore, it is not professional.

Well, suppose that styles simplify certain kind of performance or more accurately brings to the performance what is impossible to have by non-arranger keyboard. Why is it non-professional? Is professionalism dictated by how difficult you accomplish the goal or how good the goal is? I dare say that professionalism when it comes to the goal is all about how high of standard the goal is and how easy to get to it.

Let me paraphraze this, if you are one musician and you have the select of keyboards. Is it possible to accomplish with non-arranger keyboards better results than arranger keyboards? Of course not, otherwise, you would need 10 hands. If so, why would your music be more professional when you cannot accompish a better standard of music performance than those musicians with arranger keyboards?

3) YOu may object, on well, if you take a song well-sequenced on a non-arranger keyboard and you compare it to a song performed using styles, there will be no comparison about professionalism...

Wrong comparison. How about you compare your song with A SONG of mine made on an arranger keyboard. After all, the best keyboard sequencer happens to be on an arranger keyboard (GEM WK/SK series)... You may object that you use Cubase or logic.... I do too. But let me ask you to quickly sequence a good song with very little time... YOU CANNOT... I CAN... because styles work magically with the keyboard sequencer.

4) Styles do not sound like a professional dedicated band of musicians performing big band for example...

First, I do hate big band big time... and that is only my personal opinion. I would not miss any kind of music if they take these out. But let us stick to the subject. You are right, a good professional band of musicians who perform professionally on their non-digital non-keyboard instruments will always sound better. BUT, the real question here, what if you are ONE musician with only ONE keyboard... Can you get that big band feel and perforamce LIVE with your non-arranger keyboard? Of course not. You may insist on using the sequencer, but what if you do not have the time to sequence it and you really do not know what song you are performing... WHICH is almost always for true live performers who PERFORM PROFESSIONALLY>... How close can you come? not at all... you are struck of playing your electric piano sound on that synth.

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#178884 - 12/28/01 08:52 AM Re: DEBATE - are styles useful or not?
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Oh boy, I tried to head off this discussion under the other string.
I will make close to $3,000 in the next 7 days, playing nothing but styles and croaking through the mic. That goes a long way in Louisiana.
I have a good friend that owns a couple of top-of-the-line synths, Cakewalk sequencing software, new laptop computer dedicated to music, a couple of modules and drum machines.
Oh, and he works 10 hours a day selling cars to pay for all this stuff.
Now, who is the professional?
Seriously, this forum is dedicated to people who use Styles, either for fun and/or profit.
Just like joining a Church, you must either accept the religion or find other congregation.
We hope we can "convert" you.
DonM
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#178885 - 12/28/01 08:54 AM Re: DEBATE - are styles useful or not?
cam8neel Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/01
Posts: 299
Loc: Providence, RI USA
Jim,

Let me break this down:

Fact: There are more professionals on this Forum collectively than any other keyboard forum. You're in the General Arranger Forum, for God's sake! We all utilize styles either to create new compositions, or to re-create existing songs, most of the time for PAY. That means, someone is willing to put money in our hands to entertain them with our 'beginner' keyboards. I'm personally tired of all this talk about how arranger keyboard musicians are any less talented than keyboardists who play 'raw' keys. Uncle Dave is a perfect example on this forum of a professional who has the experience to know that it's what comes out of the speakers that matters! You want a real band sound, join a real band. Just listen and learn, as I do, to Uncle Dave, Scottyee, DonM, and others here who are ULTRA professionals. BTW, you can't beat the PSR2000, dollar for dollar, sound for sound. Fact.



[This message has been edited by cam8neel (edited 12-28-2001).]

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#178886 - 12/28/01 09:42 AM Re: DEBATE - are styles useful or not?
Mike H Offline
Member

Registered: 03/25/99
Posts: 161
Loc: Homer AK
JimJammin
Don't be too put off by the responses from people who are substantially older than you -and at 50 I am also a member - but in your defense it is likely that music for you at 16 is less a business than art. It can be puzzling to artists that the public does not seem to care about the finer points of art - only about what they like - the same holds true for music. At 16 - and given the range in quality for arranger kb's over the last 10 years - it would be surprising to me if you didn't find the styles 'cheesy'.
The public generally is willing to pay arranger keyboard folks to play because it helps them entertain themselves - which is primarily what party goers are out to accomplish. It's best not to confuse the job of a professional musicians with the job of an artist. Each has a little of both in em - but one tends to starve a bit more -

In defense of manufacturers though - sound reproduction on arrangers is improving nicely. The reason is simple - they are working. People familiar with how disappointing and expensive a bad band can be- are right to look at these kb's as a possible improvement - and certainly someone your age can envision how the timing of elements in music can make a wonderful production. Those tools are available to the composer and artist - right on a good arranger. So - if you choose - you can use the keyboard of a professional entertainer in a way that lets you go starve like an artist.

good hunting
Mike H

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#178887 - 12/28/01 09:54 AM Re: DEBATE - are styles useful or not?
Paulsad Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/24/01
Posts: 4
Loc: Great Britain
JimJam - Think may be your age excuses your comments somewhat but please take a careful look at what you have bought or are buying in the psr2k - is it right for you? It is an arranger keyboard aimed at either performing musicians or hobbyists interested in creating a complete backing sound. It has many other uses and is very versatile. Your comments "dossing about" (whatever that means) could be deemed quite offensive to some members on this forum. Styles are great for beginners? Just how good are you and how many pairs of hands do you have to play a complete backing on the fly? If you are that good then why not create a few styles that we could all check out?

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#178888 - 12/28/01 10:20 AM Re: DEBATE - are styles useful or not?
JimJamJammin Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 78
Loc: Surrey, England
I thought this was an open discussion, not a 'lets insult jimjamjammin' thread. I wasn't suggesting or stating anything, I was merely expressing my opinion.

"Please don't make any presumptions about our skill levels because we play a board that doesn't measure up to YOUR standards."

What on earth? Did I ever actually suggest that I am superior to you? No - I am quite upset that a forum which seems very friendly (and I was just settling in) suddenly turns against me.
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Jamie Frost

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#178889 - 12/28/01 10:38 AM Re: DEBATE - are styles useful or not?
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
We're not against you. We're all for you. We're here to help you if you want help, and that's what we are trying to do.
None of us has said anything bad about you or about non-arranger keyboards. But we get a little defensive about our instruments of choice because about 99 percent of the world doesn't have a clue about their capabilities.
I have to go set up for a job, so will be away for awhile.
Incidentally, I have a 16-year old son, and he thinks I'm always on his back too! Maybe I am, but it makes for a strong back later on.
DonM
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DonM

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#178890 - 12/28/01 11:07 AM Re: DEBATE - are styles useful or not?
Dreamer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/23/01
Posts: 3849
Loc: Rome - Italy
Jamie,
maybe I am guilty of introducing you to this Forum; I saw your question re. the PSR 2000 on the Yamaha Forum and suggested you to ask the same question here.
First of all, let me tell you that nobody is attacking you; like in every other environment, some of us are more "hot tempered" and others are more "cold blooded". Since we all play arranger keyboards (otherwise we wouldn't have joined this Forum) your question was resented by some.
I will try to answer your initial question in a simple way: playing an arranger kb or a synth has nothing to do with one's skills; a good player will be always a good player and a lousy player will play always lousy music. I think that the choice between the two comes from another consideration: if you play most of the time with other musicians, you don't need an arranger KB; a synth will give you a greater possibility to create your sounds or sounds that are very close to the "trendy" sounds you can hear on records. If, on the other hand, you play at home for your own pleasure (or the pleasure of your family and friends) an arranger will save you a lot of time.
Today I play 90% of the time a a Roland VA7, even if I also own a Roland XV 3080 and a couple of samplers (Akai 2800 and Ensoniq ASR10rack). I used to be a major gear addict and in the past I have owned all the top synths (and I mean ALL) until a decade ago, when I got sick of programming my own sequences to have a decent backing of some kind. The problem is that I play mostly at home for my own pleasure and only sometimes (like in these days) play for friends who give a party and ask me to join the group.
If I were a classic pianist maybe I would buy a digital piano instead of an arranger, but I am afraid that nobody would invite me to hear classic stuff all the time; on the other hand, even if I could play the piano the way Elton John can, I would always need a backing band to play songs other than ballads (and I would need Elton's voice too). Another consideration: unless you can hire a rock band, a jazz trio, a latin combo and a swing orchestra all in one evening, an arranger keyboard will offer you the greatest variety of musical choices to entertain yourself or your audience.
I have a feeling that your question stems from the fear of being criticized by your friends or peers; under this respect I have to say that those of us who hinted to your age are right: when you will be a little less younger you will care less for other people's opinions and more for what comes from yourself: if you are happy playing your PSR 2000, nobody is entitled to criticize you, your music or your talent.
Friendly,
Andrea
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Korg Kronos 61 and PA3X-Pro76, Roland G-70, BK7-m and Integra 7, Casio PX-5S, Fender Stratocaster with Fralin pickups, Fender Stratocaster with Kinman pickups, vintage Gibson SG standard.

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