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#176912 - 09/26/01 11:21 PM Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
Luka Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 148
Loc: Slovenia
Hi!
I did some more tests concerning delays between FILL and ARRANGE sections on SD1.
There definitely is a delay problem on this transitions – first beat after FILL is a little late and on some styles (Country) with tempo around 120 it bothers me a great deal.
With AUTO-CRASH function OFF the delay becomes much shorter and can’t be felt any more.
External clocking through Midi 2 port solves the problem – no more delays after fill’s.
I can not understand why internal clock is not capable of triggering smooth transitions and why AUTO-CRASH inserts even worse delays?
What interests me the most in this moment is, if this problem can be solved with future software releases.
I like everything else on this machine very much and I don’t want this unquantized transitions to spoil my enthusiasm.
Luka


[This message has been edited by Luka (edited 09-26-2001).]

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#176913 - 09/27/01 08:04 AM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3240
Loc: Middletown, DE
I had mentioned this before under the 'FILL delay post', but here goes ...

Some of the delays you 'might' be experiencing in some of the styles could be indeed due to any of the reasons you've already listed above. In the SD1/X units, I do believe though that the GROOVES do have a part to play with what might seem to be a delay when in transit from a FILL to A, B, C or D. For the most part, in order to avoid such, most of the FILLS have been programmed to carry forth the groove used in the previous ARRANGER part. Eg the DRUM2/GROOVE track of FILL_1 will utilize the groove/drum2 used in ARRANGEMENT_A. In cases where these vary, you might notice a slight 'glitch' as you go from FILL -> ARRGR. Since they are LIVE-DRUMS, they really cannot accurately be QUANTIZED because that will then defeat the purpose and eliminate a lot of that 'human' aspect. (Quantization of DRUM2 is possible).

A way to reduce this effect would be to turn OFF the AUTO-CRASH. This way, you'll experience a 'smoother' transistion b/w fills and other arranger parts, the reason being that the AUTOCRASH is programmed right on the note (1/4, 2/4, 3/4 etc) and dis-abling it enables you to smoothly go from the grooves used in the FILL to the grooves used in the ARRGR, since they are all grooves. Should you be using eg a LATIN rhythem that's made up of mostly GROOVES (which are not strictly QUANTIZED), there could be a 'clash' in transition when using AUTOCRASH (since the Grooves anre NOT quantized exactly on the notes and the AUTOCRASH is). Hope this helps ... at least from an understanding point as to why.

AJ
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

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#176914 - 09/27/01 07:21 PM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
DanO1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 3602
Loc: Maryland
I could not say it any better . BTW ,
are you running in stereo ? Since the parts of a style are panned L/R ...you may not be hearing the style completely . Just a guess . Dano
PS...no complaints from customers !
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#176915 - 09/27/01 08:12 PM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
George Kaye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/24/99
Posts: 3295
Loc: Reseda, California USA
I also have to say I've not had one complaint about this issue and I have not noticed it myself. AJ would know best about this.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
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George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

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#176916 - 09/27/01 11:13 PM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
TomTomSF Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/99
Posts: 736
Loc: Half Moon Bay, CA, USA
Hi AJ, George, Dano...
What the heck is this "Autocrash" deal on the SD1? It sounds like something you would *never* want to happen on any computer (or computer controlled device). Is it a reference to drum/cymbals? I am just curious because of ominous sounding term.
Tom
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Tyros 4

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#176917 - 09/28/01 05:18 AM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
flowerssupply Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/99
Posts: 312
Loc: Ireland
As you addressed Q to the lads I will not dream of replying but I Know that"cym Balls" put it there.!!! I dont know if that Joke is Irish or universal. Great feature !! Pierce X1
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#176918 - 09/28/01 06:12 AM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
Luka Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 148
Loc: Slovenia
You have a hair-raising association about ‘Autocrash’, Tom !
Luka

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#176919 - 09/28/01 07:32 AM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
DanO1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 3602
Loc: Maryland
Tom,
Many times I am playing my SD1 in the car .
I always seem to crash into something . *&%^&^$^8 That's what they mean by auto crash ! Dano
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#176920 - 09/28/01 09:51 AM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3240
Loc: Middletown, DE
AUTOCRASH Defin:
When you use either FILL, BREAK etc, as the keyboard returns to any Arranger parts (after the fill/role), a 'crash' (usually by cymballs) is initiated on the '1' of the first bar of the first measure.
AJ
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

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#176921 - 09/28/01 11:40 PM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
TomTomSF Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/99
Posts: 736
Loc: Half Moon Bay, CA, USA
AJ
That sounds like a cool feature. Especially nice that you can turn it off, too.
And Dan, you're right, your puns and jokes can be pretty bad.

Tom
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#176922 - 03/21/02 10:59 AM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3240
Loc: Middletown, DE
Better late than never.

We have fixed the delays you used to experience when transiting from FILLx to ARRy in REL 3.0a which can now be downloaded from our website.

Thanks.

AJ
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

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#176923 - 03/21/02 01:15 PM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
Henry01 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 130
Loc: Dublin, California, USA
That's great AJ, I'll test it out later...

Henry

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#176924 - 03/21/02 10:26 PM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
Mosiqaar Offline
Member

Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 999
Loc: Atlanta, GA, USA
Hi AJ,

You mentioned that this delay occurs in both SD and X series. I may have experienced such a delay a couple of times, but I blamed it on my ear rather than the keyboard because I never thought about all the stuff you mentioned above. After all maybe it is the keyboard? At any rate you mentioned that it is fixed for 3.0 OS of the SD1, is it fixed for the X1 or about to be?

Thanks
_________________________
Samer

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#176925 - 03/21/02 10:41 PM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
Gunnar Jonny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 4047
Loc: Norway
Quote:
Originally posted by Ketron_AJ:
Better late than never.

We have fixed the delays you used to experience when transiting from FILLx to ARRy in REL 3.0a which can now be downloaded from our website.

Thanks.

AJ


Hi AJ.
Did you Ketron guys fix this problem with regard
to Luka's post here?
If so, I'm really impressed, again!

Technics, do you see this !!

GJ
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Cheers πŸ₯‚
GJ
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"Success is not counted by how high you have climbed
but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)

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#176926 - 03/22/02 07:39 AM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
George Kaye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/24/99
Posts: 3295
Loc: Reseda, California USA
Samer,
I just re-read AJ's post from last year when this issue began and let me explain what I know in my non-player way of saying things(I tend to not understand really technical words and examples when discribing digital things).
If you have a sample within the style (Solton calls this a "groove") you can have a problem with "delays" or "hic-cups" because of start and end points of the loop not being exactly perfect. I remember in my days of selling Roland Samplers many years ago, the hardest thing to do was to loop the sample. If you did it manually it was very difficult and if you let the sampler do it automatically it was almost always bad!
I believe that when you think you are hearing a glitch when starting or ending a fill, it is because of the start and end point leading into the next variation being off just this little bit because it is not a quantized drum style recorded via midi but rather a sampled loop.
I would think that if AJ fixed this in version 3.0, he must have gone into the looped samples and re-truncated them to give them smoother loop points. Is this true AJ? Please explain if I'm right or wrong here. You would be able to explain this much better than I can.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
_________________________
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

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#176927 - 03/22/02 08:03 AM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3240
Loc: Middletown, DE
George,
You 'stole' my words. Well explained for I couldn't put this any better.

AJ
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

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#176928 - 03/22/02 08:16 AM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
George Kaye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/24/99
Posts: 3295
Loc: Reseda, California USA
Thanks AJ,
I wasn't sure if it was as simple as I explained it or if it was much deeper.
Regards,
George
_________________________
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

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#176929 - 03/22/02 08:50 AM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
George Pchakjian Offline
Member

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 373
Loc: Irvine Ca, USA
Hi AJ, George K,

My question would be, Is it fixed on the x1 or just the SD1,, And if it is fixed on the X1,which O.S. correctsd this problem???

Thanks.

GP.
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Salamat

JerjyBeck

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#176930 - 03/22/02 10:43 AM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3240
Loc: Middletown, DE
George Pchakjian:

We will probably incoorporate this 'fix' for the X-series in the next OS release.

AJ
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

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#176931 - 03/22/02 01:19 PM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
George Pchakjian Offline
Member

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 373
Loc: Irvine Ca, USA
AJ, Thank you for clearifing the issue, hopefully you are working on the next O.S. for the X1 which will address all the issues that concerns this forum and the rest of the world
Keep up the good work buddy.

GP.
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Salamat

JerjyBeck

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#176932 - 03/23/02 12:51 AM Re: Would be glad to hear Dan0 and G.Kaye's opinions – SD1 FILL to ARRANGE delays !
Mosiqaar Offline
Member

Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 999
Loc: Atlanta, GA, USA
George,
Thanks for the explanation. I sort of understood that from the previous explanations above as well, but my question was really what George Pchakjian already asked, which is if it has been fixed for X series as it was for the SD, and AJ answered that so thank you all for great information that I would not trade for GOLD.

Alot more for me to learn about the X1
_________________________
Samer

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