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#176136 - 08/27/05 07:17 AM General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Anyone notice how those 2 & 3 ads that appear 'at the top' of our "General Arranger Keyboard Forum" page have recently nearly ALL been heavily pushing sales of the Yamaha Tyros. I suspect that dealers are now desperately attempting to CLEAR out their remaining stock BEFORE Tyros2 hits.

On ANOTHER note, here's an interesting statistic I learned from a Yamaha keyboard representative I spoke with recently. 95% of all mid to high-end Yamaha arranger keyboard sales are to Germany & Europe. with the USA accounting for 'less than' 5% of the market. Subsequently, arranger sounds, styles, and features, are all specifically designed to appeal to German & European musical tastes & desires. Arranger kb manufacterers have yet to figure out how to attract hi-end arranger kb appeal to the US market.

Scott
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#176137 - 08/27/05 07:41 AM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
SemiLiveMusic Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 2189
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Scottyee:
here's an interesting statistic I learned from a Yamaha keyboard representative I spoke with recently. 95% of all mid to high-end Yamaha arranger keyboard sales are to Germany & Europe. with the USA accounting for 'less than' 5% of the market.


Wow, that's an amazing surprise. I had no idea. Good gracious, only 5% in USA? Maybe in, say, five years from now, with more OMB out there, it will be different.


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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000
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Bill

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#176138 - 08/27/05 09:24 AM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Scottyee:
95% of all mid to high-end Yamaha arranger keyboard sales are to Germany & Europe. with the USA accounting for 'less than' 5% of the market. Subsequently, arranger sounds, styles, and features, are all specifically designed to appeal to German & European musical tastes & desires. Arranger kb manufacterers have yet to figure out how to attract hi-end arranger kb appeal to the US market.

Scott


Hi Scott,

This is true. Europe has a much larger market when it comes to OMB musicians than the US.

When the new Genesys Pro S O/S was in the final stages of completion, we [GEM USA] said that many of the sounds and styles were just not right for the US market. The advantage of having everything, i.e. operating system as well as wavetables, styles, etc. in flash is that with a single CD the entire instrument can be changed from the ground up to present properly to any given market. The result is the Genesys series instruments in the US have a separate O/S including some different sounds and styles as those prepared for the European market.

Best Regards,

Dave


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Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

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#176139 - 08/27/05 09:25 AM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Bill, another interesting point: following Tyros 1's initial release, many USA dealers were having to return their unsold Tyros inventory, while German dealers weren't able to keep enough of them in stock to meet consumer demand.

US consumer appeal for arranger keyboards still remains low in spite of recent efforts by arranger manufacterers & US keyboard magazine reviews & ad exposure to promote them here. The key is figuring out what it is about high end arrangers that isn't appealing to US musicians. Is it their high price, embarassment of playing along to auto-accompaniment loops, or simply their past reputation as toys for people who can't really play? Whatever the reason, I think professional OMB arranger musician-entertainment is far less accepted and respected here than in Germany. Then again, Schlager music's more popular in Germany too.

Scott
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#176140 - 08/27/05 10:55 AM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
I do think that the market size in the US and in the world generally, is the reason why arranger manufacturers are reluctant to release more than one version of an arranger.

IE Yamaha not making a 76 key Tyros or Roland not making a 61 key G70.

I guess they are thinking that persons who like the respective arranger version for the sounds and styles would buy it whether it is 61 or 76 keys. And those who would not buy it because of the keys are just too few in order for the manufactures to make a profit from making a different size version of the same arranger.

I think arrangers have such a small part in the US keyboard market because of the stigma of it being for home players and not for professionals. That seems to be reducing as arrangers continue to have very good sounds and unique features and as people begin to use arrangers more in public. It always use to amaze me when people use to, because of styles, laugh at arranger players as being amateur and lovers of a quick fix approach to music. When arrangers are perhaps the most versatile keyboards as you can perform as a one man ban, perform with a band and do studio work all with one arranger. The styles that come with the keyboards are only suggestions. The trick to making an arranger really outstanding is to create your own styles or modify existing styles. No different really from what you do with an appeggiator on a workstation.


Another reason why arrangers are not too popular in the US is the price. They are way way too expensive. But that is because of the small market they have.

I still feel that if arranger manufactures want to make some inroads in to the keyboard market, making an arranger module is the way to go.

It would give existing keyboard owners a chance to use an arranger at a reasonable and affordable price.

Also, you can build brand loyalty so the next arranger you make such a person would have been exposed to arranger features for that brand and would be a stronger candidate for buying a full arranger.
For example, I had a friend who had a Korg Triton classic. When the Motif came out he was reluctant to getting another keyboard from another manufacturer. So what he did was he got a motif rac module. He liked the sounds of the Motif rac so much that when the Motif es came out he kept the Triton classic and sold the Motif rac and got the Motif ES 7 and is a very happy person now. Well musically at least.
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#176141 - 08/27/05 11:17 AM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2416
Loc: CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Scottyee:

On ANOTHER note, here's an interesting statistic I learned from a Yamaha keyboard representative I spoke with recently. 95% of all mid to high-end Yamaha arranger keyboard sales are to Germany & Europe. with the USA accounting for 'less than' 5% of the market. Subsequently, arranger sounds, styles, and features, are all specifically designed to appeal to German & European musical tastes & desires. Arranger kb manufacterers have yet to figure out how to attract hi-end arranger kb appeal to the US market.

Scott


Fascinating!! What makes us as Americans so different from our European counterparts?

Let's look at a few shall we? Okay, I may be off here but one thing to consider is America has been entrenched in the idea of the traditional Workstation concept i.e. anything other than an Arranger. All of the Bands here use Workstations, even your so called Garage Bands. And that concept has been ingrained in our society (and musicians in particular ) from the inception of Keyboard technology here in the States. Rick Wakeman of the group Yes was one of the first big names to use a Keyboard in a live setting. Before that it was usually an Upright or real Grand Piano that was used during a performance. And Arrangers were no where to be found because there was no such thing as an high end Arranger back then just Stage Pianos and Workstations basically. Arrangers came on the scene much later.

To change people's mind set and open them up to a new concept in Keyboard technology and music making is rather difficult evidenced by the fact that the manufacturers can't figure out how to sell mid and high end Arrangers here in the States. The musicians say we have something that works so if it ain't broke why fix it? And besides Arrangers have been marketed for the most part as Toys sold in department stores for children so musicians don't know any different in my opinion.

BUT the concept is slowly changing in my opinion. As word gets out that there are Arrangers out there that aren't toys and have the quality of sounds comparable to the top end Workstations and are extremely useful to musician's music making ability, then the idea of an high end Arranger on his or her short list will be more readily embraced. But to do that in my opinion the manufacturers need to change their marketing strategy. Market the mid and high end Arrangers more as "Tools Of The Trade" for Musicians instead of "Be Your Own Band!"

An Arranger can be an awesome tool in the music making process for musicians. From scratch pad, to getting ideas for songs, to making whole arrangements in a relatively short amount of time can be a real boon to gigging musicians. And they will be willing to pay the price if the quality and features are up to snuff. But so little is known about Arrangers in the Music World (except the concept to them as toys sold in department stores ), that they don't know any different.

They've GOT to realize and understand the invaluable resource an high end Arranger can be to them in the music making process. When that dawns on them - THEN they will change their view of what an Arranger really is and how extremely useful it can be in the process of making music and song making.

Apparently Europeans have not been as ingrained in the concept of using only Workstations and Digital Pianos for their music making needs; and possibly that the toy Arrangers aren't sold to the degree that they are in the States thus the idea of Arrangers as only toys sold to children doesn't apply to them. They don't have that "toy" mentality when it comes to what an Arranger really is and can be.

Also, the idea of sounding like a Band and making beautiful music can be very soothing and uplifting on those coooollllddddd winter days and nights. And when you think about it their winters last up to six months in some locations, so there are millions of people with little else to do when the snow is half way up the side of their houses during the winter and outdoor recreational activities are substantially hindered as a result. And Europeans LOVE music, so mid and high end Arrangers fly off the shelves so they can have a hobby and do what they love, i.e. make music and sound like a live Band during those times, or any other time for that matter.

There are other reasons of course but I think the main reason is, as I stated previously; when Americans find something that works for them and they don't know or understand the alternatives at their disposal i.e. "high end Arrangers and the gold mine that can be attained in using them in the music making process", and also having the concept in their minds that they are toys sold in department stores for children - then can you blame them??? Can you blame them for shunning Arrangers even though they are considered High End???

Manufacturers have to change that concept in their minds before Arrangers will be accepted to the degree that traditional Workstations or Digital Pianos are now in my opinion.

Hold Symposiums here in the U.S. like they do in Europe. Fly Michel Voncken over here and let him do a 50 city tour promoting the Tyros 2. Send flyers to all Music Retailers in the cities that are included in the tour, including all Guitar Center outlets. Make the admission free and add other enticing benefits such as hands on workshops, special pricing for pre-sale orders and or multiple order items above a certain dollar amount. Don't limit the stay to one day per city. Make it a e.g. 3 day stay in each, etc.

Best regards,
Mike

PS: Why do I waste my breath? Who's listening anyway? Steve seems to have flew the coop and I don't think any other Yammie employee frequents this site anymore. In fact I believe Yammie is changing their strategy concerning Keyboard or other type of Music Forums. They are concentrating on Forums that are their own such as Arrangerworkstation.com and Keyfax.com and are shying away from others not "endorsed" by them. Steve Deming has been silent (hopefully he still reads the posts though). Mike Martin who used to post regularly over at Musicplayer.com has been silent recently. Yammie even up and moved him back east to Chicago because in my opinion they wanted him 'dis-connected' from that site and from participating in it... out of sight out of mind type of thing. Instead Yamaha in my opinion is trying to take a back seat to the goings on at other Music Forums not endorsed and owned by them. We will see if my take on the situation stands up to scrutiny.

sigh... The other manufacturers are more than willing to answer questions and participate in various music Forums.

You know what they say though don't you? "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen". Apparently Yamaha can't stand the heat.

Note: These are expressely my opinions based on my observations and are not necessarily fact. As Fox news says: "We report - You decide".


[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 08-27-2005).]
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Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.

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#176142 - 08/27/05 11:27 AM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:


Also, you can build brand loyalty so the next arranger you make such a person would have been exposed to arranger features for that brand and would be a stronger candidate for buying a full arranger.
For example, I had a friend who had a Korg Triton classic. When the Motif came out he was reluctant to getting another keyboard from another manufacturer. So what he did was he got a motif rac module. He liked the sounds of the Motif rac so much that when the Motif es came out he kept the Triton classic and sold the Motif rac and got the Motif ES 7 and is a very happy person now. Well musically at least.





Yep, Yamaha hasn't done much to keep me as a loyal customer. After my episode with my first PSR2000 and it's major OS problems and painfully slow response from Yamaha, and the experience of seeing some of the Yamaha software products I had purchased become abandonware ( XG works, SYXG100 ), I really wanted to swear off their products.

Unfortunately, when I was looking for a workstation, the Triton Studio didn't quite do it for me, and the Fantom X hadn't been released yet ( I think maybe the S seies was out at the time ). Sooo, I got the Motif ES... and I'm still very happy with it.

Of course, nothing has changed. Yamaha gave us hope of new plug in modules and other great aftermarket products for the Motif series in the works way back when on Motifator, and very little has happened there.

Someday I'll replace or complement my PA80 with a second arranger for live play.... unfortunately, it won't be with the pricy PA1x, and since I'll likely never see a Ketron, Gem, or even Roland board to demo anywhere within a reasonable distance, and I won't buy without trying ... I'll likely have to go the Yamaha route again.... sigh

AJ
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AJ

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#176143 - 08/27/05 11:29 AM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4544
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
#1-I feel that many keyboards are being used as karaoake players, where keyboards like KN7000 and Tyros are not really needed. My personal observation this past week was to see a Kn7000 played beautiful for a short period, then singing with midi files captured the rest of the night. I am now doing both, no objecting against midi files,but I see the market moving away. Is this happening overseas too?

#2-What do they put into the keyboards that go to other countries? Different styles? Different sounds? How do they differ?

IMHO, John C.

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#176144 - 08/27/05 12:30 PM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
pianodano Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 122
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia
I disagree that the price is to high for the US market. A Hammond xk3/b3 setup is over $7500.00 plus another $2500.00 for the 122.

I believe that Yamaha has done a real diservice to the arranger market by representing Tyros as a professional "flagship" arranger keyboard. Each of those terms conotate or imply specific things, none of which with the exception of the Tyros panel voices, my Tyros is.

If it were truly what they say it is, I believe many more professional musicians would have one. The limitaions imposed by Tyros midi impementation, external voice data recall, totally inadequate sequencer, woefully inadequate audio outs/digital outs and toy undersized keybed are just a few of the things that come to mind off the top of my head. I hesitate to mention the on board harmonizer that was found to be faulty by "3" people around the world (as stated by a high level Yamaha rep on a forum).

It did not take me but just a very little while to realize that I was misled by the "flagship" and professional hype.

If Yamaha needed to charge $5000.00, $7000.00 or more, it would not and should not matter. I believe this would be of no consequence to a professional musician seeking or requiring the highest grade instument or tool. Especially coming from a company of Yamaha's(in my mind previous) stature or staus. I really don't know about you guys, but I paid $3500.00 for my used B3 way back in 1974 and $900.00 for the Leslie. $1000.00 for the Clavinet in 74 and I forget how much for the used Rhodes. Back in those days I was making a whole $25.00 a night. People need to get real regarding prices for "PROFESSIONAL INSTRUMENTS.

Yamaha has totally just muddied the waters with Tyros. A wedge has been driven between many buyers that fully expected it to be what they (Yamaha) said it was and many that feel it is. Yes, for sure the home entertainers love it probably because most are totally unaware of many of the higher level technical limitations, and, some giging musicians have discovered some of them (discrepancies) but stuck it out and learned to accept many of Tyros shortcomings. Some have tried real hard to use it as a studio tool and have had too look elsewhere. I don't need a sales person or some company technical rep to tell me how good it is after I have already bought it. I am a freakin musician that has spent a lifetime doing technical things. I sure as heck don't need Michael Vocken to demonstrate it. I'll spend weeks alone with it and figure out for myself whether it is up to snuff. I for one am sick and tired of all the defense of Tyros by it's loyal "users". IMO Yamaha has disappeared because Tyros is history.

Without doubt the live music scene changed completely in the US in the late 80s', mainly in my opinon, because of mothers against drunk driving and the laws they helped enact, cops sitting down the street form bars waiting for them to close and late night road blocks. The public became terrified about driving after even a few drinks. Bars could know longer afford to bring in popular local bands. Todays kids are out there playing their music for pass the hat because they don't know any better or have never known any different. Well the hell with that. It should be no problem at all for a good solo entertainer to earn 200 to 300 per night, which is much less than the 400 to 1000 that bands in my the Virginia Beach area area need. Besides, solo entertainers hold and involve the crowd much more than many (part time)bands, at least that is my experience, having seen it from both sides. And I have not even mentioned the home studio explosion with tens of thousands working alone in their studio.

I really believe that if if some company really were to build a truly "Professional" "ARRANGERS" KEYBOARD; selling them to Musicians in the US would be the least of their problems.

Danny




[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 08-27-2005).]

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#176145 - 08/27/05 04:23 PM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 6950
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Danny, you're right. I've bought B-3's, Suitcase Rhodes...many $5,000 plus guitars. When you make a respectible living, you just need to lay out the cash to get professional equipment. My problem with Yamaha is that
the ones I tried (owned a PSR 3000 for a week-tried a Tyros-didn't like it)all seemed like home quality "toylike" devices.

I believe that Yamaha goes for volume and intentionally uses less than quality components...fine for the home market but short of what I require.

I'm very glad that many are satisfied with the Tyros and 3000...it's just not for me.

Ketron comes as close as I can find in the areas of build quality and professional sounds. I would prefer a kick ass bass player and drummer, but, sadly, in this area at least, if you want to work 4 plus nights a week for a decent wage, that's almost impossible.

Russ

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#176146 - 08/27/05 06:42 PM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
pianodano Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 122
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia
Hi Captain,

Wereabouts are you located?

Danny

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#176147 - 08/27/05 07:27 PM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
Michael P. Bedesem Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/99
Posts: 142
Loc: Shrewsbury, VT
I have a differnt 'take' on the lack of arranger sales in the USA.

The "pro Yamaha" instruments came first to the USA and were very successful (DX7, etc).

When the arrangers first arrived, they were, correctly, viewed as consumer 'toys' and marketed only thru mass retailers.

Later, when the arrangers became serious instruments, the pro outlets did not offer then. Why, I do not know. But perhaps their earlier reputation, or perhaps inter-company competition, was a factor. The fact is that there is minimal distribution for these instrument in the USA. In my view, that is the major factor for the relatively poor showing in the USA. Few people will spend thousands for an instrument that they can not touch!

Just my guess...

Regards,

Michael

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#176148 - 08/27/05 08:17 PM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Quote:
Originally posted by Michael P. Bedesem:
I have a differnt 'take' on the lack of arranger sales in the USA.

The "pro Yamaha" instruments came first to the USA and were very successful (DX7, etc).

When the arrangers first arrived, they were, correctly, viewed as consumer 'toys' and marketed only thru mass retailers.

Later, when the arrangers became serious instruments, the pro outlets did not offer then. Why, I do not know. But perhaps their earlier reputation, or perhaps inter-company competition, was a factor. The fact is that there is minimal distribution for these instrument in the USA. In my view, that is the major factor for the relatively poor showing in the USA. Few people will spend thousands for an instrument that they can not touch!

Just my guess...

Regards,

Michael


I think you are correct with that being one of the reasons for a lack of arranger sales in the USA.

And it’s the chicken and the egg which one comes first story.
Arranger manufacturers are reluctant to put a good amount of arrangers in the distribution chain if they don’t think there is a sizeable market to distribute it to. On the other hand, the market (most keyboard players and consumers) would not want to buy an arranger if it is not readily available to try out (in the distribution chain) especially if they have to spend a lot of money.

I think until manufacturers look at arrangers as serious professional instruments, and start making them and marketing them as such; Until arranger manufacturers start marketing arrangers to professional musicians; until seasoned arranger users demand from arranger manufactures a professional sounding and looking arranger and settle for nothing less; arranger keyboards will always be a small part of the keyboard market.
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#176149 - 08/27/05 08:58 PM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
mr82thebar Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 135
Loc: Baltimore,Md.
I'm sure that the Geneyses is a great keyboard. The fact that we cannot find any at many dealerships in the States is a minus, plus who fixes the keyboard when it conks out?. Also, who pays for the hernia operation after carrying this thing around to gigs? Just a thought. Bob L
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#176150 - 08/27/05 09:44 PM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
Tomcat Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 178
Loc: Ft Collins Colorado, USA
I've run into that same brick wall that Pianodano has in the studio. The Tyros may very well be a "professional" OMB "entertainer's" keyboard but it certainly is NOT a "professional" studio keyboard.

You can't even turn off "Local" with a toggle that stays off or on until you go turn it the other way. You have to go into a screen and turn off seven things with button pushes and if you leave that screen they immediately go back on! You can save it as a user template but then you have to call it up from the Tyros and not the software sequencer. If you try to call up the panel voices from a computer sequencer you don't get the DSP included with the voice! Obviously there was absolutely NO thought given to the possibility of using the Tyros in a recording studio other than for recording audio out of the stereo ports and that possibility was simply built in and not thought out as such.

I've pretty much decided to change direction. I'll keep the Tyros but I won't be buying any new arranger keyboard. Instead I'm going to buy a CME-UF7 controller keyboard with 76 keys and 9 assignable sliders and 8 assignable knobs and then go with the Tyros and Fantom XR module as sound modules and anything else will come as softsynths and VSTi's because my main use is in the studio.

With my outside paying job as a church organist, the church furnishes the organ and I don't have to carry anything around.

In reality I'm moving in a different direction anyway. I've now got GPO and EWQL Silver Orchestra, plus about 4 different books on the art of orchestration and I'm starting to study that with the idea of learning to do serious orchestration mockups so that someday I can orchestra my own work.

I have to admit I'm having a lot of fun learning all this new stuff, along with some temporary frustrations. Now that I've decided to move to Cubase SX-3 from Sonar 4PE that's also settled some things down and now it's "off to follow the yellow brick road", LOL.

Tom

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Bigger is not always better
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#176151 - 08/28/05 12:47 AM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
jamman Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/04
Posts: 639
Loc: City of Angels in the golden s...
Many reasons(why less arranger market in US)


It's not just EU,it's the rest of the world)asia or south america) vs US.

reason?

simple.

Compare to the rest of the world we have more LIVE music with LIVE bands.(other countries have their LIVE music with their traditional instruments) unless it's their pop or pop orientated music(in a small bar situation - an arranger took over)where in US you can still hire 3-4 piece live band relatively cheap .

The Audience - more arranger bar going people(at night) are also younger than in US / expect live music in the place(where arrangers comes - (arrangers there are also dance machines too-all newest hit dance songs are written and played in bars).

they still have younger crowd who loves harder rock live music (where in US more younger crowd is into -Hip hop or DJ).


another thing

prices of the instruments -

do you notice that for gtr related products,it's THE CHEAPEST in US. 99$ simple Digitech pedal is 99 pounds(149$) in UK and so on.(think Gas prices-it's the tax-3$ now in US,6-7$ in EU(yes both in UK or Germany).


US vs rest of the world

even after Korea or now China -overseas gtr production-
the standard instrument for pro live band is always a US strat ,LP or high end other guitars which relatively is more expensive for the rest of the world(yeah you can buy a US strat with a month's pay here but not so in the rest of the world).(I'm talking about pop orientated music which has the largest market in every country.(not hard rock or havier stuff where EU still have the edge over US as live bands.)

another reason(for Bands)- Transportation - since almost everyone has cars in US so lugging and transporting your gear (KB or GTR equipment) is less painful than getting a cab.


And not but the least - the biggest market of Western music(not just country music) - ie blues,jazz,country etc music is still in good old USA where you have tons of bands making tons of original music with LIVE bands.that's not the same with EU(compare the population too) or rest of the world.

I still love to see many LIVE bands with original music in this good old US of A and still enjoy to play and make money with my arranger/ and play gtr in a live band.

peace.




[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 08-28-2005).]

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#176152 - 08/28/05 05:45 AM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
Frank L. Rosenthal Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1008
Tom, best of luck and fun on your new path. You will never look back. The quality of your outputs will be worth it.

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#176153 - 08/28/05 06:41 AM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by mr82thebar:
I'm sure that the Geneyses is a great keyboard. The fact that we cannot find any at many dealerships in the States is a minus, plus who fixes the keyboard when it conks out?. Also, who pays for the hernia operation after carrying this thing around to gigs? Just a thought. Bob L


Since Generalmusic USA took over the North American distribution of all GEM products several years ago, many new GEM dealers have come on board. A large number of these dealers focus on our home products, I.E. RP700, RP800 and Genesys Ensemble, but many of these dealers also stock the Genesys w/speakers. This is the same instrument as the Genesys Pro but with internal amplification. So putting you hands on a Genesys is not necessarily that hard.

As for service, we have service centers all over the US. In most cases, these are the SAME service centers that supply service to all of the other brands as well!

The Genesys Pro S is 41 lbs. “?” I suppose if we made the case out of plastic, took the lead weights out of the full size keys, removed the CD burner and internal hard drive, and maybe replaced the floppy disk drive with an SD card reader…………… on second thought, I think we’ll just leave it as is.



------------------
Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums


[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 08-28-2005).]

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#176154 - 08/28/05 07:38 AM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
Anonymous
Unregistered


Regarding the seemingly high prices of pro arranger keyboards;

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the coast of manufacturing. I am not just referring to the hardware manufacturing, but also the software design portion of manufacturing.

An arranger keyboard shares a lot with what is commonly known as a workstation keyboard. It has keys, wave tables, knobs and sliders, display, etc. and also the software to make all of that function. But in addition to those things, the arranger instrument also has additional hardware in the way of arranger control buttons, sliders, etc. not to mention the styles themselves.

Anyone who has created their own style "from scratch" realizes just how much time and hard work it takes in coming up with a good usable style that will sound right no matter what chords are used to trigger that style. And since most arranger instruments these days have over 200 internal styles on-board, that means many hours of work to put the styles together.

It has been mentioned in other posts within this thread that manufacturers need to approach high-end arrangers as professional instruments. What about the retail outlets? In my position, I travel the US providing product training to digital keyboard dealers, both home and pro stores. The high-end arranger keyboards are typically displayed in among the rest of the “lower priced, easy play, one finger chord, yes your 4 year old can learn to become a concert pianist with this instrument” type keyboards. Store employees need to become more familiar with the true capabilities of the pro level arranger/workstations so they can better serve their customers.

And the current professional consumers of high-end arranger instruments need to realize that as long as comments like “the price to too much” or “it is too heavy” etc. are being tossed around, then many of the so-called professional level arrangers will continue to be made out of plastic, with cheap keys and controls, poor MIDI implementation, etc.

BTW: The Genesys is an all metal chassis with wood side panels. It uses a high quality keybed featuring full length and width keys with weights added to the underside of each key to provide a more solid and playable keyboard. The 32 track sequencer features full editing capabilities, much of which you would expect on a computer based sequencer program. The MIDI implementation goes beyond many of the workstation keyboards on the market. The point is the basis of the Genesys has grown from professional synthesizer/workstation instruments versus being based on an upgraded version of those “lower priced, easy play, one finger chord, yes your 4 year old can learn to become a concert pianist with this instrument” type fun machines of the past that many other products have been based.


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Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums


[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 08-28-2005).]

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#176155 - 08/28/05 11:28 AM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
pianodano Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 122
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia
Quote:
Originally posted by Michael P. Bedesem:
I have a differnt 'take' on the lack of arranger sales in the USA.

The "pro Yamaha" instruments came first to the USA and were very successful (DX7, etc).

When the arrangers first arrived, they were, correctly, viewed as consumer 'toys' and marketed only thru mass retailers.

Later, when the arrangers became serious instruments, the pro outlets did not offer then. Why, I do not know. But perhaps their earlier reputation, or perhaps inter-company competition, was a factor. The fact is that there is minimal distribution for these instrument in the USA. In my view, that is the major factor for the relatively poor showing in the USA. Few people will spend thousands for an instrument that they can not touch!

Just my guess...

Regards,

Michael



I had to buy mine without ever seeing one. No one in my region had it in stock way back when and I have yet to ever see one in a store in a area of the country with over 2 million people.

Personally, I had a very long discussion with a Yamaha rep over the telephone regarding the then top of the line 9000. I was told that the Tyros would be released within a few months and that Tyros would be far superior and have everything someone performing or working in studios would need and it would include all of Yamahas keyboard making technology. (I paraphase but it was definitely along those lines). Yeah right.

Danny

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#176156 - 08/28/05 04:54 PM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
Tomcat Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 178
Loc: Ft Collins Colorado, USA
That's really interesting Pianodano.

Over in Salem (pop. 110,000) where I got my Tyros, there is a one man music store (Music Music) where he has some real pianos from Pearl River, some Yamah P120, all DXG series, PSR 1500 and 3000, Tyros, most of the Roland electric/stage pianos and a G70, all out on the floor as playable demo units.

So I guess it is mostly up to the individual music stores as to what they want to carry. I feel pretty lucky to have access to that much inventory in one store.

Tom

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Bigger is not always better
_________________________
Bigger is not always better

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#176157 - 08/28/05 05:15 PM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
PaulD Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 258
Loc: Eugene, OR
Tomcat,

Music Music is a great store in Salem. The guys there really know the instruments they sell, which is great.

PS. Both myself and DaveM will be at the State Fair in Salem next weekend, you should come by and say hello. (jackman long building, Red Gate).

Best regards,

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Paul Davis
Generalmusic
Generalmusic.US
_________________________
Paul Davis
Generalmusic
Generalmusic.US

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#176158 - 08/28/05 11:38 PM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
doc-z Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 435
Loc: Norway
Just a little info, here in Europe, we used to call High-End-Arrangers workstations. So when keyboards with sequencers, but no styles started coming out as "Workstations" and arrangers as "Arrangers" that really made us keyplayers over here confused!

Doc-Z

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#176159 - 08/29/05 05:22 AM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
sk880user Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 1255
Loc: United States
I certainly agree that software development for a keyboard is probably very expensive.

Because it an embedded system, the languages selected are either C++, C or Assembly or a combination of the above.

However, until they find a way to program in either Java or C#...

Software development will continue to be very very expensive.

Unless of course a brave manufacturer can experiment with Windows CE, compact .net framework, and C#!

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#176160 - 08/29/05 06:34 AM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
Tomcat Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 178
Loc: Ft Collins Colorado, USA
PaulD, I've never been to the State Fair because 1) I don't like large crowds anymore (I'm 70) and 2) it is traditional for it to be one of the hottest weeks of the summer during the fair. I live on the coast in Lincloln City where this summer the temp has been running 65 to 75 F.

LOL, when I go over to Salem and the temp is over 75 I turn on the airconditioner in my car!

BTW, my last name is Davis too.

Tom

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Bigger is not always better
_________________________
Bigger is not always better

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#176161 - 08/29/05 06:42 AM Re: General Arranger Forum: Tyros Advertisment Surge !
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 6950
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Hi, Danny. I'm in Lexington, Kentucky...just under 300,000 people. Single rate in restaurants is $150-tops, and only a few of us are getting that. If you're connected with the thoroughbred folks and major corporations, rate is $350-500 per night for private events.

Many small bands playing for the door.
Duo's get $175-200 and trios get $250.00. The number of better paying jobs for larger groups is limited. Only places that have "house" bands are ones featuring country music.

It's TOUGH out there.


Russ

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