...or fake keyboard players.
http://www.cledgriffin.fsnet.co.uk/fakeplayers.html

Kind of a touchy subject, on an arranger forum!

There ARE people on this forum that think that holding a chord down, and singing a lead IS 'playing' (it IS entertaining, but is it PLAYING?)....

I wonder just how many here could actually sit at a regular organ, and do the whole 'feet and two hands' thing... Not too many, I would think.

I started playing the organ when all you did was use your two hands and feet and did so during all my years at the Music Academy studying Classical Organ and after so that makes ONE SZ member so far. I'm sure that there are many others.

I played organ and grand pianos as a younger person. Then with arthritis 'causing great frustration that my technique was being taken away, I discovered arranger keyboards. They've allowed me to rejoin the musical world.
Keith

Never studied classical organ, but did a little bit in churches from time to time. Glorious sound! I envy you your studies...

I used to hold down a trio in the seventies kicking pedals and LH bass on an old Hammond, playing holiday camps in England (Tommy, can you hear me?!). That was the last time I used pedals, at least professionally...

I kind of miss them, but prefer to stand while I play, and that makes pedals a little difficult!!

(And no, I don't miss the weight of that Hammond one little bit!)

Great post, Taike...

Even though I studied classical piano for many years and even though I took to my B3 and pedals with enthusiasm, I wanted to learn more about the organ, so I took the plunge and went back to school.

I completed Yamaha's Electone course (even taught it for several years) and the emphasis was on the bass pedals and actually playing left hand rather than just chording.

I even used a modified Electone El-90 pedalboard (20 notes) with my arranger to give more flexibility to the bass line, but I guess laziness, and the much improved (and programmable) auto bass(and improved chord recognition)of the newer arrangers had me tuck them away, and eventually sell them....something I sometimes wish I hadn't done.

Needless to say, doing a gig back then was a exercise in accurate registration changes and choreography...I was a busy guy.

I'm at the point in my life where I am comfortable using an arranger and the full accompaniment, and people's opinions of just how much of the playing is "me" just don't matter much anymore, and I enjoy playing more than ever.

I refuse to use SMF although I have no issue with those who do so.

It will be interesting to see how others feel about this issue.

Ian





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Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

I learned on and played for many years a basic Hammond spinet with just some drawbars. I had to learn my own rhythms using footpedals and left hand. I can still do it but electronic arrangers are much more fun! I definitely admire organists who are still playing the traditional way and I attend many concerts to watch and listen.

You can call me a traditionalist than, Marilyn. I'll always be an organplayer at heart and no matter if I play an arranger keyboard or not, I'll keep playing the organ as well. It gives me a far greater range of stylings and freedom to play arrangements that can't be done on a keyboard.

As I mentioned earlier on, I studied Classical Organ and prior to that followed the Hammond Organ Course which is pretty much unlike most other organ courses. The last two years at the Academy I started to focus more on theater organ styling and you really need at least two manuals for that and pedals, of course.

Taike

ps. thanks, Ian

I learned on a piano and a B 3. I played B3 throughout the 70's usually along with a Rhodes. I also studied classical organ and piano and I am a Director of Music in a United Methodist Church. I play the arranger because of its versatility and portability. As an entertainer that does 300+ jobs per year, it's the only way to go. I still do grand piano jobs when they come along.

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

I'd bet I'm one of the hold-outs. I use arrangers for 80% of my singles, but I still keep a B-3, 147 RV and Rhodes at one of my house jobs at a local country club. Mostly, it's left-handed bass. I use it on about 35-40 jobs a year.

On my arranger jobs, on half the material, I use left-handed bass. Sometimes, I use an XB-2 with a Motion sound top box.

I just restored an old 1949 M, which I'm running through a 145, just for fun, at the office.

I use the B for sentimental reasons, and we have a small contingent of people who are part of a Jazz support group who are fans of the Jimmy Smith, Jack McDuff style.

Would NEVER move the thing, but it has a home and enough fans of the style to make the maintenance (tubes, belts, etc.) worthwhile.

For people who have never played a B with a tube Leslie, do it if you get the chance. It's still Awsome!


Russ

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 05-18-2007).]

its interesting to note people still say they refuse to use midi files, but thats exactly what you are doing everytime you play a chord on your arranger...they are ALL just short midi files...
in fact, play a midi file, stop all instruments apart from bass and drums, and then see how much you actually PLAY...with arrangers all the left hand really does is hold a static chord (lol, or a finger!!)




[This message has been edited by miden (edited 05-18-2007).]

No miden, they aren't they same thing, at least not to me.

SMF don't work for for MY style of playing and the type of gigs I do....I get more overall flexibility with styles.

Some people can get quite a bit of flexibility out of SMF, but I have never had any interest in using them.

Unless a player is doing actual two handed playing over a SMF, it smacks too much like karaoke to me.

Ian

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Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-18-2007).]

I definitely agree.... If you are not using both hands, all the time, it IS karaoke....

The problem for me comes from having been a regular keyboard player for MUCH longer than I have been using arrangers, I have built a style up that I can only sum up as 'two right hands'. I spent a long time developing independence to the point that one hand is doing one (or sometimes two if possible) part, the other one is doing another one (or two!) also. Not just 'comp and lead' but comp and lead with either hand, or two leads, whatever the song and band needed. I NEVER jumped on the bass players part (he's getting payed, why double him? I've got other things to do!), and only played LH bass if the bassist was doing something else (had one that doubled a mean sax)....

Now I am coming to grips with playing the arranger mode more and more, my left hand just feels so useless, primarily tied up with inputting the chords. So it feels like back to 'comp and lead' one way only.

That is why i like using SMFs a bit more than some here do... It gives me an opportunity to play keyboards like I used to in bands. I am even busier and more directly in control of what gets heard (my SMFs are stripped down to the point where I have to play a LOT of parts!) than most of the time I play arranger (not so easy to do things one-handed), so I feel, strangely, MORE in charge of the music than when I am in arranger mode.

Add in the new Mark/Jump song position jumps you can now make in SMFs to re-arrange the structure on the fly, and it starts to feel VERY similar to arranger freedom, without the tyranny of tying down my left hand.

Also, it's one of the reasons I want the return of the Chord Sequencer, so I can stay with the freedom of arranger mode, and yet get back BOTH my hands after inputting the chords the first time around. This one feature kind of blurs the whole arranger/SMF picture. (Sorry I'm being tedious again, Ian, but at least is IS kind of 'on-topic', or at least how the topic has evolved! )

But so many different ways to do the same thing, at least we all can find equipment that makes our personal preferences possible.....

Hey, Diki, if being "tedious" will get you the chord sequencer, go for it, man.

I sent in several requests to Yamaha for it, and sent a few e-mail to the regional Roland rep, who I used to work with many moons ago when the E-70 was current...I believe the E-70 or one of the other E's at the time (perhaps the Pro-E) had a chord sequencer.

Hopefully, someone will recognize it's value and it will return in the near future.

Ian





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Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

Thanks, Ian... If being an irritant and tedious gets it back, it will be worth every single one of you I have pi$$ed off!

And when it does, you can all thank me later....

A bottle of single malt Orkney Isle Scotch will do just fine...!

Used to have a Yamaha Electone HX3 for home use, plus a physically smaller HS8 for gigging. Both great instruments in their day. I regularly gigged the HS8 alongside a couple of guitarists until arrangers started to catch up with it sound-wise. Then swapped to an "ironing-board" for the convenience & lack of bulk.

I still miss the way the bass pedals gave you the on-the-fly ease of playing false roots with any LH inversion you happen to fancy.

In many ways, my ideal instrument would be a modern arranger with fully integrated bass pedals. By that, I mean fully integrated in an electronic and operating system sense - not just physically. Pedal notes would always be treated as the lowest note of the chord, irrespective of actual pitch relative to whatever LH notes were being played. That way, the pedals would always have priority control over the actual bass line, whether being manually played, or being a style derived bass riff.

This is essentially how the old Yamaha Electones worked & it felt very natural and instinctive. It also removes the need for the "bass-follow" function as it is, in effect, automatically on or off on a note-by-note basis as needed, by virtue of instantly responding to whatever bass note you choose for the LH chord you are playing at the time.

Something like the electronic guts of a Korg PA1X, with a Roland G70 operating system & touch screen, Korg i3 front panel style control buttons & an integrated 20 note lighweight pedalboard is getting pretty close.......

The Yamaha D-Deck looks interesting, and is sort of heading in that direction, but I suspect it may be a bit low-end feature wise compared to most current top flight arrangers. It may also sound a bit "home-organ-polite" in tonal character for my tastes. Oh, and Yamahas always seem to have pitch bend wheels - which I hate, rather than a pitch/mod lever.

Its no good. Looks like I'll have to set up as an instrument manufacturer to get what I want!

[This message has been edited by MikeTV (edited 05-19-2007).]

I took up the organ in 1964 with an old Conn spinet. I upgraded to a Hammond Model "A", then to a B3.

I played organ alone at restaurants and bars until the late eighties, and bought a Roland D50. The pedals and left hand was the only rythm I had until I bought a free standing Rythm Ace. Customers thought it was fantastic,

I miss the Organ players that used to be around town. A B3 and drummer playing all the top 40 hits of the day, that was impressive and entertaining.

I started playing the organ when I was 8, 2 manuals and pedals and ended up with 3 manuals and pedals. I went through all of the LRAM grades theory and practical and then passed my teaching qualifications.
I've also played quite a few church organs which are fantastic, totally different from your Yamaha Electone models no automatic styles on there (I can just imagine putting a disco beat on in a church, it would be a laugh).

I love the synths and arrangers but I know when I get older I'll always be able to get back on an organ and never be out of work.
I wish the Wersi wasn't faulty when I purchased it a few months back, the sound was fantastic on there when it worked, but that's life, so it's back to the arrangers and digitial piano now

Hello MikeTV
Here are some details that may interest you http://www.yousendit.com/download/UW13N3RURndJMHMwTVE9PQ

The OAA option has every type of chording system used in other manufactures keyboards and organs, and then adds a lot more besides.

Some short demos can be found here http://www.wersi.net/html/tontrager.html

The UK contact is http://www.harmony-music.co.uk/

Bill

Bill any sign of the new Wersi forum yet from Colin?

That's the second UK Wersi forum by the way rather than the first as advertised in Cavalcade lol

hi ian,
no, the point i was making is they are still midi files, just set to play as an arranger..each accomp part is a looped midi sequence..that is all i was saying (it was more a "tongue-in-cheek" comment ) i too, like diki, prefer a fullfisted 2 handed way of playing, (especially some of the BIG jazz chords!!)so i use a few midis, and on other occasions i will utilise the arranger...but, and i think diki might do this too but i dont really know, i have most of my midis set up like a four piece band, the only tracks are drums bass and guitar, with me supplying all the keyboard action..
cheers
dennis

I started playing the organ at 12 after 4 years of accordion. I got to play a B3 and the Mighty Wurlitzer as a youngster, so I was hooked early on. Didn't start playing the piano until college; there was a rickety console in the dorm and a 12' grand on a stage in one of the auditoriums. I've always played footpedals, still do at church. Left hand bass too.

That's how I try to do it most of the time I use SMFs, dennis. But I have an acoustic guitarist (and we play primarily acoustic music... CSNY, Eagles, America, etc.) so I'll sometimes put a little pad or E.Guitar part in for color and my guitarist holds down the rhythm most of the time.

But probably 40% of our stuff I just use the arranger drums, and kick LH bass myself (I like REAL basslines, not repeated little riffs!)

I am starting to learn how to get effective arranger rhythm guitar while still playing like that in arranger mode, but the machines still have fits when you start doing passing notes in both hands.... But it is starting to work, and finally my guitarist gets to play a few more solos, without the whole rhythm dropping out while he solos. He's pretty happy about that...!

So maybe 40% SMF, 40% LH bass and arranger drums, 15% no machines at all (but still do LH bass), and only 5% with full normal arranger mode. If I had a Chord Sequencer (like my old G1000) I would probably do a LOT more in arranger mode, but until it reappears, this works well for us...

B3 Gig
The sound is bad but if you boost the bass a little you will be able to hear the pedals better. NOTE: This is a 39MB file so give it time to buffer.

Personally I have always hated to play left hand bass and have turned down gigs in the past if the job required playing piano and covering bass with my left hand... until last night. I bought a set of MIDI bass pedals and sued them with my Promega 3 digital piano to accompany a female jazz singer that called me for as a sub. There was a great jazz guitarist at the gig as well it it was a joy to have both hands free to play piano but still have the bottom end covered.

Dave

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 05-20-2007).]

Pretty cool stuff, Dave.

Nothing like a real B!

Of course, it sure helps when the player is as competent as you.

Ian

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Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

man I'm doing something wrong I think I got it figured out now

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 05-20-2007).]

Yea BABY thats what I'm talking about!

I'm afraid we're gonna lose that level of musicianship after this generation. What with beats and loops and samples, midi files, electronic this and that. One finger, easy play, performance assistant, instant gratification where are the kids gonna learn about real music. Whatever the style.
We need more talented teachers that can actually perform and appreciate a diverse music set. And can inspire his students to do so.



[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 05-20-2007).]

sorry

Unfortunately, as more and more of us who CAN play without an arranger keep using them (and mostly in full arranger mode), where are the examples for young players to emulate..?

Here is a thread FULL of players saying they USED to play full organ (Russ excluded), but now they prefer the convenience and ease of arrangers to the pain of lugging around an organ and the skill needed to entertain well without your invisible band of backup 'beats and loops and samples, midi files, electronic this and thats'. One can hardly blame the younger generation of not learning that when we are too lazy to do it ourselves.

If arrangers had been around in our youth, how many of us would have given those up to do things the hard way? Not too many would be my guess...

I'm not blaming the younger generation, it's just a shame

You may exlude me too, Diki. I still play the organ any chance I can get. I no longer own one (the musical one) but just last weekend did I bump into someone at a local music shop who does: A Thai expat who has a Kawai XR9000. It's been years since I've played a Kawai. Kawai is one of the few brands that provides physical drawbars and they sound pretty darn good. Not Hamond but a nice warm full sound. My new friend is waiting for the latest Kawai flagship to arrive (looks a bit like Yamaha StageA but with physical drawbars) and let me hear some demo songs and watch a demo DVD: WOW! I'm in love!

Taike

Hi Taike.

I've seen the Kawai organs on the Japanese site but I have not been able to find any demos of them. Do you happen to have a link at all or any information as to this DVD?

It does look one hell of an amazing instrument from the specs, but getting one into the UK would be as hard as getting blood out of a stone. Why do companies make it so hard for people to purchase organs these days. Stage EA, D-Deck, new Kawai all just about impossibe.

Sure, Taike, I'll play any organ when I get the chance, but the question was asked 'Why aren't youngsters getting into them?'. Youngsters want to do anything cool they see, but unless you gig them out (not many venues with a house organ any more!), they aren't going to see them, and getting anyone here to lug something around over 30 lb. seems impossible....

Why don't many still play the clavichord? Because better keyboards exist....

Plus, I might add, add a secondary keyboard underneath the arranger you have, and a set of pedals, and ALL of us have a VERY full featured organ, functionally.

But how many of us will have the willpower to turn off ALL the arranger features and play it strictly old-school? Once again, not too many, I think.....

Diki...you're right...not too many house jobs of ANY kind anymore. I play my B for nostalgic reasons...If I had to move it to use it, it wouldn't happen.


But, man, it it ever fun!

"Old School" Russ

Craig: I've had as much luck as you; only seen the pics on the Japanese site. IMHO the Kawai flagship (Japanese for cute) sounds and looks better than Yamaha's StageA. Just to have physical drawbars is a treat. Digital drawbars are pure nonsense in my book.
As for importing a Kawai, it's possible. I do know that some UK guys imported their StageA. Some do it through a Japanese dealer and others through a Taiwanese dealer. The StageA is cheaper if I'm remember correctly.

Diki: My mistake, sorry.

Still, I am quite positive that the organ is still going strong in several European countries. But since Yamaha ignores the demand and Technics has vanished the options are less.

Stacking up two keyboards and adding bass pedals may get you close but it'll still lack the true power of an organ.

It's quite understandable that someone wants a quick start on playing the organ/keyboard, playing songs as soon as the instrument's out of the box. Nothing wrong with playing a one-finger-chord song but ...since such players only play a handful (fingerful) chords at the most, why not just learn to play them in full. The little extra effort will have them sound much better plus, before they know it, they'll be tackling more chords because they'll know that they can do it.

Russ: Keep that B3 rockin', buddy.

By the way, anyone interested in Bill Irwin's Concert series (sheet music)? They're wonderful arrangements, advanced player only, and they sure sound fantastic. It's not something you'd be able to play on a keyboard.

Taike