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#167733 - 05/19/08 12:31 PM
Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14239
Loc: NW Florida
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I am getting really tired of this 'sweet spot' rubbish. I thought I had explained this well enough in the past. You have a stereo at home, I presume? Do you turn it into mono, or switch off one of the speakers unless you are sitting in the 'sweet spot'? No, you do not. And yet (and this is blindingly simple to test) you can discern that there IS a stereo signal from most points in the room. Yes, of course, it is not the PERFECT spot for absolutely pinpoint imagery, but until you get a very considerable distance from it (basically, another room, if you are in a house, or at the back of a large hall in venue, you CAN discern that the music is not mono, and has a spaciousness that mono cannot provide. Simply make a test file of a piece of music, and take random sections of it, and turn them into mono, and leave some stereo. Sit anywhere in your room (or stand anywhere in a larger venue (except directly in front of one of the stacks within 1/5 of the distance between the stacks) and play it back. If you cannot hear what sections are stereo and which sections are mono, I suggest a trip to an audiologist... It is entirely your choice to use mono or stereo, I don't care either way. But to keep repeating obvious (and easily checked) misinformation about it's effectiveness is a disservice to the forum. Look, the PAS has many strong points. But you don't get brownie points for playing down it's weaknesses. They exist. It doesn't do stereo well, so what do you say? 'the "Sweet Spot" is very narrow with conventional systems' And that, gentlemen is pure spin... Or, if you prefer, a "snide, exaggerated 'comment' - to put it politely" in your words. You CAN discern stereo over a MUCH wider angle and distance than just the 'sweet spot'. Downplaying the importance of stereo just because your choice of PA cannot do it well smacks of the 'fan'aticism that I was referring to.
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#167736 - 05/19/08 05:46 PM
Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
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Member
Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
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Diki, you're getting too worked up about this (and that's coming from me!).
You yourself are putting too much of a spin on what is being said - a "spin on a spin" if you will. For my money, a sweet spot can be quite large and STILL "miss" people. This isn't just the "back of a room" argument, but a "side seating" argument, which I've explained previously.
In addition, sweet spot should also refer to volume level - i.e. a "Hotspot of volume" which point source speakers have, and Line Arrays and speakers exhibiting Line Array Properties (the Bose is , after all, a scaled down Line Array when it's all said and done) do not.
Or as KF put it previously"
"For those reasons people usually say the Bose sounds "clear" and they can hear themselves talk AND the Music because there are no harsh hot spots. People on the sides are not asking to turn it up while people in the front are asking to turn it down. Of course the performer has no idea what they hear because he is using a monitor that is sending reflections off the ceiling and back wall.....All the sound waves bouncing around the room because the system has to be LOUD enough to fill the room cause MUD and are eliminated with the Bose because the sound is evenly dispersed in a 180 degree area. Ironically, You can actually play louder with the Bose because you don't have all these reflections to deal with. Clarity and Volume. The Holy Grail of a good PA Set up and mixer. Clarity in the ROOM, not just coming from the system."
(Sorry to cut n paste, but I felt he put that better than I could have).
If you want stereo you can have it with 2 PAS systems, which many people have done (and many have not) the result, apparently, is a huge amount of stereo coverage due to the wide dispersion of just one system, and indeed a large amount of Stereo crossover if you will, for the same reason.
I wouldn't do it for 2 reasons
1. Expense (for me). 2. Defeats the purpose (somewhat) of a quick setup and ease of transport (double the amount of systems to carry & load in. 3. It's just not necessary (for me)
Diki, nobody (I hope) is trying to exaggerate the "evils" of stereo, and the God given "goodness" of Mono. You are the one, I feel, who is turning this into a Stereo vs Mono debate, and focusing too much on that - I mean that sincerely - there's MUCH more to the Bose *discussion* then that.
Please stop referring to me (at least) as a fanatic, that's also misinformation, and putting a spin on things.
(I guess you don't know me personally, but if you re-read my posts, I've tried to be fair and objective - I have, at least, created an entire thread devoted to the Bose emotionalism topic, so we can all have a fair discussion on the topic without fanaticism.)
If you'll permit me, one more cut n paste from the beginning of the thread I just mentioned:
"1. I think people CAN have their own opinions on ANY piece of gear, philosophy, working methods, Religion, favourite colour...WHATEVER.
2. I don't think, and have never said, that the Bose system is for everyone, and people can love the sound, hate the sound, judge the sound as is their right.
3. I'm not espousing the system in this thread - even though you all know what side of the fence I'm on - I want an honest civil discussion.
4. Failing that, I'm happy for this thread to degenerate sooner or later into a Love/Hate Attack/Defend diatribe (from BOTH sides) because maybe this thread can be like a "virtual swear Jar" where people can post things as nasty as they like if it keeps other threads from being "Bose polluted".
I hope that comes across as fair.
Also, just a bit further down I stated:
"I've even had emails from more than one Synthzone member (and they will remain anonymous) advising me on the system in PRIVATE so as not to cause trouble!!
I mean, when was the last time someone on a forum felt they had to hold "secret talks" about some PA gear for fear of ridicule or attack????"
Now THAT'S Fanaticism.
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#167737 - 05/19/08 11:14 PM
Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14239
Loc: NW Florida
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Look, think what you will, hellboy. Not EVERYTHING is about you! Both you and Kingfrog trotted out the lame stereo issue this time around, and several have tried the same spin in the past , so my reply was not just aimed at you (I actually quoted KF as well as you), but for the whole forum to read. Agree or disagree with it how you like. It doesn't change the facts. The Bose system in a mono ONLY system. Do a search on their website, if you don't believe me. There isn't a single mention of the word stereo anywhere in the entire PAS section. This system is specifically designed to NOT be in stereo, but to have multiple mono units (one for each player). And even that won't provide a stereo image, precisely because of the non-localized nature of the sound (stereo works by having TWO localized sound sources, with a left and right perceived signal interacting with your ears to create the illusion of a 2D image in the middle). There are quite a few reported issues with people getting WAY less than good results while trying to achieve stereo from this system (do a search here for stereo and PAS). Phasing issues, poor imaging, all what you would expect. Bose make stereo systems, for home theater, music AND PA, and would certainly advertise this capability IF it was possible. Look, I'm happy it works for you. Congratulations. Me, I've played in stereo for decades. Curiously, I also have rarely come across the 'turn it up, turn it down syndrome', nor has anyone EVER complained about being in a poor spot to hear the stereo. So, a PAS isn't going to fix any problems I have, because I don't have them! Maybe just knowing how to set the PA up optimally is all it takes, Who knows? Anyway, this is rapidly devolving into a infinitely decreasing spiral (and we all know where those end up!), so I am done with this. I am happy you have found a solution that works for you, but no amount of spin is going to convince me that the PAS is the solution for me, or anyone that likes stereo. Having already tried it (like many others here), I really don't need anyone to change my mind. It's superiority is NOT unquestioned, it does have significant flaws, but if you can ignore them (I can't) it can be a great system.... Now, how about a bit more talk about what MUSIC you are actually playing through them, as I think this is FAR more important than what you play through? Hell, maybe even a snippet or two...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#167739 - 05/20/08 01:46 AM
Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
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Member
Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
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Why do my posts (specifically the last one) strike you as all about me? I only state that The Bose "works for me" (and variants of same) because a)It's true. b)It's a fair way to state things. c) You yourself (and most other reasonable people on the boards) use this way of speaking about their favoured systems so people DON'T think whatever system they happen to be espousing is the "be all and end all". You are either not understanding me, or deliberately being obtuse - I really can't work out which one. For the record : I'm happy you're happy too! (Have I ever said otherwise - really???) Now, when I said: "the result, apparently, is a huge amount of stereo coverage due to the wide dispersion of just one system, and indeed a large amount of Stereo crossover if you will, for the same reason." I meant "crossover" in a bad way (implying phasing amongst other issues) so if I didn't make myself clear, then that's my bad. Below is a "Bose-Wiki" link that you may have missed (as you only seem to make reference to the forums themselves as your primary source of Bose info), that describes a way to playback a Stereo signal between two Systems - I believe it involves utilizing an auxiliary output. http://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/index.php?title=T1_ToneMatch%C2%AE_Audio_Engine_/_USB_/_Output_Stereo_to_Two_L1%C2%AEs (I hope the link as I've pasted it works btw). You do your OWN searches for other examples if you like (mainly in the DJ sections I believe) and I hope that satisfies. I haven't done Stereo searches much (or reading) because I've been too busy reading up about other tech/sound/setup issues that affect me more directly. Even if it doesn't satisfy you, I don't mind, I'm not as interested in running in Stereo Live as you are - I simply brought it up because you did, it wasn't the centrepiece of my argument, and I don't regard the ability of the PAS to do stereo (or not) as one of it's significant flaws that's your opinion and perception. I'm glad you're done with this - maybe it will stop the pointless discussions - I'm more over this than YOU are I can tell you. As for posting any Demos of us (my Wife and I) Audio or Video, (Stereo or Mono), and whether you're really interested, or whether it's just an attempt to divert the conversation away from this long diatribe (and I don't blame you there) you can't have any! Why? Because we haven't recorded anything Live for quite sometime, so I don't want to show my "baby pictures" so to speak (not many people do - least of all me). Studio wise (original songs) I don't think we'd have anything of interest to the vast majority of forum members - yet..... (You see we're setting up a Basement Studio in the next few months so I'll gladly share the fruits of THAT labour then) In other words, when we have something worth showing - that's recent - I'll show it. (Thanks for asking )
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