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#167743 - 05/21/08 04:30 PM
Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14237
Loc: NW Florida
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Good for you... But sadly, your arguments are no more persuasive than before. EVERY room you listen to a stereo in (short of an anechoic chamber) is rife with room reflections, standing waves and nodes. Somehow, this has NOT stopped people preferring stereo to mono over the last sixty years or so. What on earth is wrong with us? Just tell me you listen to a MONO home music system, and I'll go away... And let me know if you start to play large concert venues. Me, I play clubs, restaurants and corporate banquets. NONE of which are large enough to mandate a mono PA. Look, SURE there is a 'sweet spot' where there is optimal stereo imaging. But what you are refusing to acknowledge is that every other spot is NOT 'sour', just slightly less good. If your goal is to present the same, mono sound to everyone in the room, you have hit the nail on the head. If you want to present a two dimensional sound to ALMOST everyone in the room, you cannot achieve this. I can. I can also be a LOT louder on the dancefloor without disturbing the back of the room. You can't (you are simply playing venues and audiences that don't WANT 'loud at the front'). Listen, let's get back to this in twenty year's time, OK..? If everybody is listening to line arrays of mono music, I will eat my hat (chicken or otherwise ). If they are not, you eat yours... Everybody was predicting the LAST Bose systems (you know, the 802's) were the 'wave of the future' when they came out. LOTS of little speakers in an unconventional cabinet (sound familiar?), with dedicated controllers, etc.. And yet, despite all the hype, here we are donkey's years later, without this style having fulfilled the hype, or become the de facto type for PA usage.. History (apparently) teaches nothing....
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#167745 - 05/21/08 11:46 PM
Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14237
Loc: NW Florida
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Sorry, old chum, but your superiority must be unquestioned in this matter. At least in YOUR mind The day that a major concert venue sticks up ONE stack of a line array, behind the musicians, I will eat my hat. All your supposed experience with Claire Bros. and this is the best you can come up with? Just go and ask any of these guys when they will be doing any concerts using a single PAS system (or even one per musician). They will laugh in your face! 'Amature' indeed! You fail to grasp the utterly different concept between PROFESSIONAL line array systems, and Bose's interpretation of it. Bose's line array systems are designed to give a 180º coverage in the horizontal plane, because they are supposed to be onstage, by the musician. Pro line arrays have a far more conventional horizontal coverage. and are designed for different sections of the array to project at different sections of a large concert venue in the VERTICAL dimension, in FRONT of the musicians, who still have a conventional monitoring system. Two entirely different concepts and usage. Don't confuse them.... I'm sorry you feel the need to denigrate any other system to justify your purchase, I am certainly not trying to persuade you that 'my system is better than yours', why the arrogance about yours? I should have stuck to my guns when I said I am done with this topic. Like I said, let's review this topic in ten years' time, and then you can tell me again what an idiot I am to suggest the Bose's have any limitations, and may not be the future of PA amplification, OK? Gloat AFTER you have been proven right, not before....
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#167746 - 05/22/08 10:15 PM
Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
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Member
Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
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Geez, you go away to help the wife finish off some renovations and look what happens... Well seeing as Diki can't leave this bone alone (as usual) then I won't (as usual) KF did you really mean to imply that: 1. One single Bose System could do a Major Concert. 2. The Bose has no limitations whatsoever? 3. That it is the future of Live Amplification? 4. That Diki is an idiot for suggesting both 2 & 3 are untrue? If so, you owe him an apology as these things are gross exaggerations. If not, I suspect they are Diki's exaggerations to help support his argument. His Straw man Argument. So comparing the Bose to what we were originally supposed to be comparing it to in this thread (JBL's VRX 900), I think they're both capable of great sound. I just don't like the weight & Size of the VRX, otherwise it looks swish - really. Also, how many VRX systems do you need for a smaller venue (I'm unclear on this - I confess I haven't read much of the VRX link beyond some basic specs). This is important because it will determine overall cost and portability. As far as the Bose goes I would recommend: Solo, Duo and (pushing it) Trio: 1 system (with at least Dual Subs). 4 or more players: 1 Bose between 2 (on average). On a side note, re - cost, I recently sold our old PA system for $2200 reducing the cost of our new Bose nicely. Anyone handy with a paint brush???
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#167747 - 05/22/08 10:33 PM
Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
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Senior Member
Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
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Originally posted by Diki: Sorry, old chum, but your superiority must be unquestioned in this matter. At least in YOUR mind
The day that a major concert venue sticks up ONE stack of a line array, behind the musicians, I will eat my hat. All your supposed experience with Claire Bros. and this is the best you can come up with? Just go and ask any of these guys when they will be doing any concerts using a single PAS system (or even one per musician). They will laugh in your face! 'Amature' indeed!
You fail to grasp the utterly different concept between PROFESSIONAL line array systems, and Bose's interpretation of it. Bose's line array systems are designed to give a 180º coverage in the horizontal plane, because they are supposed to be onstage, by the musician. Pro line arrays have a far more conventional horizontal coverage. and are designed for different sections of the array to project at different sections of a large concert venue in the VERTICAL dimension, in FRONT of the musicians, who still have a conventional monitoring system. Two entirely different concepts and usage. Don't confuse them....
I'm sorry you feel the need to denigrate any other system to justify your purchase, I am certainly not trying to persuade you that 'my system is better than yours', why the arrogance about yours?
I should have stuck to my guns when I said I am done with this topic. Like I said, let's review this topic in ten years' time, and then you can tell me again what an idiot I am to suggest the Bose's have any limitations, and may not be the future of PA amplification, OK?
Gloat AFTER you have been proven right, not before....AS usual you twist the debate to fit your "facts" Lets review. Array as defined by me is the even distribution of waveforms over the widest area possible. Period. The Bose does that in small venues. I never implied as you invented that the Bose is in any way an Arena system. The idea of both systems is EVENESS of sound. I also never mention a line array in a concert venue. Again your invention to bolster your argument. The Bose System projects sound waves evenly across a nearly 180 degree place. A concert array is hung and designed to do the same thing in a much larger venue. Reflections are the bane of good clear sound.REVERB (you know what that is don't you?) are reflections. IF you have ever heard a mix awash in reverb you heard MUD. The Bose system (as are concert systems using sweep arrays of speakers rather then all facing is designed to minimize reflection... Conventional speakers project equal sound to the floor and ceiling, where it gets reflected back down as reverb. Add to that a floor monitor directing sound towards the ceiling and more reverb..more reflections.....MUD. The Bose PAS is designed to direct most of the sound in a wide, FLAT plane sending very little to the floor and ceiling. The sound is clear all the way to the back of the room (Just like large venues array designs) It appears Bose just found a way to achieve the same effect in smaller venues. If people do not like these speakers its because the owner has no clue on how to gain stage. I have owned many systems and Actually having this unit I can compare it based on actual experience rather based on theory or listening to someone else' system who may or may not understand hot to make this system do what it does best rather then just trying to be as loud as possible. Like I we can buy any system we want and I do have experience in large venues and I would recommend the Bose system for those who perform where the audience and manager appreciates clear sound where people can actually have a conversation without having to wait till the somg was over.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4 Yamaha Motif XS8 Roland RD700 Casio PX-330 Martin DC Aura Breedlove ATlas Solo Bose MOD II PA
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#167750 - 05/23/08 07:24 PM
Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
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Member
Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
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So the gig last night went better than expected.
There we were, playing in a horror room (a regular venue for us) where apart from the bad acoustics, you have a VERY transient crowd. The setlist careered from Old Rock (Bad moon Rising, Lookin' Out my Back Door etc) to Top 40 (Sexyback, Please Don't Stop the Music) and lotsa stops in between.
Then a funny thing happened.
We got to the end of the gig, and all the people on the dancfloor rushed up to us and demanded to know what that "weird Pole" was. I said that's our PA.
Well...
They all fell to their knees and started chanting in worshipful tones for several minutes.
THEN...
Several of them produced coloured ribbons from their pockets and tied them to the top of the Bose and started dancing merrily around the pole singing "Hey Nonny Nonny, we love the Bose"
(It was weird I can tell you...)
NEXT
The Manager came up and demanded to know how we got that sound, or, as he put it, the best Darn sound he had EVER heard ANYWHERE! I said, well it's the Bose of course silly, and he IMMEDIATELY doubled our pay for the night!
UNBELIEVABLY
The Bar staff came over and led us round to behind the Bar, where they said we could have our pick of ANY top shelf drink (I chose some Frangelico - an Italian Hazelnut Liqueur, and my wife, Rose, chose an 80 year old Bottle of Red) so apologies for the late reply...it was a hell of a night when we got back home!
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#167752 - 05/23/08 10:57 PM
Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
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Senior Member
Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
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Originally posted by Diki: Provide your own definitions of anything, and you will always be right (in your own mind )
Go online, and look at the HORIZONTAL dispersion of any PRO line array. Find one that is 180º? Didn't think so...
Next... Your're kidding right? I hope so. Because modern Arena Systems deliver more than 180 degrees of DIRECT sound. Why is that? Because DIRECT sound is the best sound. Reflected sound is trash. Your argument doesn't deserve merit on the basis of a pro system not being behind the musicians as the Bose can be. The reasons for that are obvious to ....well perhaps not to you. One of the nice things about the Bose is it can and does offer the direct dispersion of sound evenly across horizontal plane and yet does not require the monitoring system of a massive PA. (Partly due to each member wanting separate monitor mixes. The only Small venue OMB or Duo PA system that offers direct sound at nearly 180 degrees is the Bose PAS. The idea is for EVERYONE in front of the act to hear the sound as if they are sitting in front of conventional speakers. Any conventional speakers. This isn't fanaticism..Its applying big time pro lever sound projection to a small venue. Anyone who has been to a concert can understand the importance hearing the source material DIRECTLY and not reflected of the walls,floors, and ceilings. The Bose is not meant to be a PA for huge venues. It is meant to deliver the even sound a pro level arena system is designed to deliver. IN that regard it does exactly that. In order for someone to poo poo the Bose system they have to be coming from the "Power and loud" school of good rather than "clarity everyone hears the same without reflection" good. Power does not trump quality and clarity of the source material unless it is in an array offering even distribution of content with the proper power applied to minimize inevitable reflections. [This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-23-2008).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4 Yamaha Motif XS8 Roland RD700 Casio PX-330 Martin DC Aura Breedlove ATlas Solo Bose MOD II PA
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