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#167743 - 05/21/08 04:30 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Good for you...

But sadly, your arguments are no more persuasive than before. EVERY room you listen to a stereo in (short of an anechoic chamber) is rife with room reflections, standing waves and nodes. Somehow, this has NOT stopped people preferring stereo to mono over the last sixty years or so. What on earth is wrong with us?

Just tell me you listen to a MONO home music system, and I'll go away...

And let me know if you start to play large concert venues. Me, I play clubs, restaurants and corporate banquets. NONE of which are large enough to mandate a mono PA.

Look, SURE there is a 'sweet spot' where there is optimal stereo imaging. But what you are refusing to acknowledge is that every other spot is NOT 'sour', just slightly less good. If your goal is to present the same, mono sound to everyone in the room, you have hit the nail on the head. If you want to present a two dimensional sound to ALMOST everyone in the room, you cannot achieve this. I can. I can also be a LOT louder on the dancefloor without disturbing the back of the room. You can't (you are simply playing venues and audiences that don't WANT 'loud at the front').

Listen, let's get back to this in twenty year's time, OK..? If everybody is listening to line arrays of mono music, I will eat my hat (chicken or otherwise ). If they are not, you eat yours...

Everybody was predicting the LAST Bose systems (you know, the 802's) were the 'wave of the future' when they came out. LOTS of little speakers in an unconventional cabinet (sound familiar?), with dedicated controllers, etc.. And yet, despite all the hype, here we are donkey's years later, without this style having fulfilled the hype, or become the de facto type for PA usage..

History (apparently) teaches nothing....

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#167744 - 05/21/08 08:23 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
I HAVE played in amphitheaters and major venues and have worked with major sound companies such as Clair Bros in those venues I can assure you it sounded great in mono.

As for my home system the SPL is not loud enough for the imaging to become muddy with reflections. I prefer the spaciousness of stereo when I am stationary and focused on the source. But I control every aspect of what I hear therefore I do not understand how you can even compare a home situation with a venue, That reeks of the assumption of an amature view,

Science aside, people sitting in a club 25 feet away from one speaker and 50 feet from another are not getting the best possible sound no matter how spacious it "appears" Frequencies arriving together is the most pleasing way to hear any sound source. Yes it is indeed "sour" and not just "slightly less good" IF that were the case major venues would be using stereo mixes rather than mono.

Quad sound is even more spacious but that tightened up the ideal listening area even more and failed. At home one can CONTROL the balance and the sound. Not so in a venue where the artist decided what the audience will hear in many case not the patrons best interest.

Those siting in one area think it sounds great, Some sitting in another area are missing program information (but hey it sounds "spacious") Yet others are sitting in the hot spots and being blown out. I don't know about you but I want control over what EVERYONE hears and prefer they all hear the SAME content the same way. Thats what the BOse system does. It gives one the EVEN sound of playing in a huge venue without the arrays and wide dispersion needed. And that my friend is far more important then a highly reflected dtereo image "just because thats the way we listen to music at home" You can't be serious using home listening as a comparison to playing in an uncontrolled fluid venue......Yet it appears you are.

I don't need to sell you or anyone on the BOse System. However if you look at professional performers who play 5000 seat venues have a look at the sound system. You will see a system that Bose copies for a smaller venue.


The 801's did very well as I remember and the L1 is doing even better. However old habits are hard to break. Have a peek in the mirror and you will have your answer to your historical question. People are never quick to adapt to that which they do not understand believe is better just becasue it always was. Nothing hiders progress more than a stubborn paradigm.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-21-2008).]
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#167745 - 05/21/08 11:46 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Sorry, old chum, but your superiority must be unquestioned in this matter. At least in YOUR mind

The day that a major concert venue sticks up ONE stack of a line array, behind the musicians, I will eat my hat. All your supposed experience with Claire Bros. and this is the best you can come up with? Just go and ask any of these guys when they will be doing any concerts using a single PAS system (or even one per musician). They will laugh in your face! 'Amature' indeed!

You fail to grasp the utterly different concept between PROFESSIONAL line array systems, and Bose's interpretation of it. Bose's line array systems are designed to give a 180 coverage in the horizontal plane, because they are supposed to be onstage, by the musician. Pro line arrays have a far more conventional horizontal coverage. and are designed for different sections of the array to project at different sections of a large concert venue in the VERTICAL dimension, in FRONT of the musicians, who still have a conventional monitoring system. Two entirely different concepts and usage. Don't confuse them....

I'm sorry you feel the need to denigrate any other system to justify your purchase, I am certainly not trying to persuade you that 'my system is better than yours', why the arrogance about yours?

I should have stuck to my guns when I said I am done with this topic. Like I said, let's review this topic in ten years' time, and then you can tell me again what an idiot I am to suggest the Bose's have any limitations, and may not be the future of PA amplification, OK?

Gloat AFTER you have been proven right, not before....

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#167746 - 05/22/08 10:15 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Geez, you go away to help the wife finish off some renovations and look what happens...

Well seeing as Diki can't leave this bone alone (as usual) then I won't (as usual)

KF did you really mean to imply that:

1. One single Bose System could do a Major Concert.
2. The Bose has no limitations whatsoever?
3. That it is the future of Live Amplification?
4. That Diki is an idiot for suggesting both 2 & 3 are untrue?


If so, you owe him an apology as these things are gross exaggerations.

If not, I suspect they are Diki's exaggerations to help support his argument.

His Straw man Argument.


So comparing the Bose to what we were originally supposed to be comparing it to in this thread (JBL's VRX 900), I think they're both capable of great sound. I just don't like the weight & Size of the VRX, otherwise it looks swish - really.

Also, how many VRX systems do you need for a smaller venue (I'm unclear on this - I confess I haven't read much of the VRX link beyond some basic specs).

This is important because it will determine overall cost and portability.

As far as the Bose goes I would recommend:

Solo, Duo and (pushing it) Trio: 1 system (with at least Dual Subs).

4 or more players: 1 Bose between 2 (on average).

On a side note, re - cost, I recently sold our old PA system for $2200 reducing the cost of our new Bose nicely.

Anyone handy with a paint brush???
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#167747 - 05/22/08 10:33 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Sorry, old chum, but your superiority must be unquestioned in this matter. At least in YOUR mind

The day that a major concert venue sticks up ONE stack of a line array, behind the musicians, I will eat my hat. All your supposed experience with Claire Bros. and this is the best you can come up with? Just go and ask any of these guys when they will be doing any concerts using a single PAS system (or even one per musician). They will laugh in your face! 'Amature' indeed!

You fail to grasp the utterly different concept between PROFESSIONAL line array systems, and Bose's interpretation of it. Bose's line array systems are designed to give a 180 coverage in the horizontal plane, because they are supposed to be onstage, by the musician. Pro line arrays have a far more conventional horizontal coverage. and are designed for different sections of the array to project at different sections of a large concert venue in the VERTICAL dimension, in FRONT of the musicians, who still have a conventional monitoring system. Two entirely different concepts and usage. Don't confuse them....

I'm sorry you feel the need to denigrate any other system to justify your purchase, I am certainly not trying to persuade you that 'my system is better than yours', why the arrogance about yours?

I should have stuck to my guns when I said I am done with this topic. Like I said, let's review this topic in ten years' time, and then you can tell me again what an idiot I am to suggest the Bose's have any limitations, and may not be the future of PA amplification, OK?

Gloat AFTER you have been proven right, not before....


AS usual you twist the debate to fit your "facts"

Lets review. Array as defined by me is the even distribution of waveforms over the widest area possible. Period. The Bose does that in small venues. I never implied as you invented that the Bose is in any way an Arena system.

The idea of both systems is EVENESS of sound.

I also never mention a line array in a concert venue. Again your invention to bolster your argument.

The Bose System projects sound waves evenly across a nearly 180 degree place. A concert array is hung and designed to do the same thing in a much larger venue.

Reflections are the bane of good clear sound.REVERB (you know what that is don't you?) are reflections. IF you have ever heard a mix awash in reverb you heard MUD. The Bose system (as are concert systems using sweep arrays of speakers rather then all facing is designed to minimize reflection... Conventional speakers project equal sound to the floor and ceiling, where it gets reflected back down as reverb. Add to that a floor monitor directing sound towards the ceiling and more reverb..more reflections.....MUD.

The Bose PAS is designed to direct most of the sound in a wide, FLAT plane sending very little to the floor and ceiling. The sound is clear all the way to the back of the room (Just like large venues array designs)

It appears Bose just found a way to achieve the same effect in smaller venues. If people do not like these speakers its because the owner has no clue on how to gain stage.

I have owned many systems and Actually having this unit I can compare it based on actual experience rather based on theory or listening to someone else' system who may or may not understand hot to make this system do what it does best rather then just trying to be as loud as possible.
Like I we can buy any system we want and I do have experience in large venues and I would recommend the Bose system for those who perform where the audience and manager appreciates clear sound where people can actually have a conversation without having to wait till the somg was over.
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#167748 - 05/23/08 12:03 AM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:
Lets review. Array as defined by ME is the even distribution of waveforms over the widest area possible. Period.


Provide your own definitions of anything, and you will always be right (in your own mind )

Go online, and look at the HORIZONTAL dispersion of any PRO line array. Find one that is 180? Didn't think so...

Next...

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#167749 - 05/23/08 12:23 AM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
BTW, did anyone even bother to go to the VRX site and look at the stats for this system? I am fairly sure the original poster did not, as they are utterly different systems in price, power and coverage. And intended usage.

As was stated LONG ago (before the Bose 'fan'aticism got started)... Apples and oranges. Or even apples and elephants.

Peace out, y'all. Let's talk again in a few years about the 'future'

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#167750 - 05/23/08 07:24 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
So the gig last night went better than expected.

There we were, playing in a horror room (a regular venue for us) where apart from the bad acoustics, you have a VERY transient crowd. The setlist careered from Old Rock (Bad moon Rising, Lookin' Out my Back Door etc) to Top 40 (Sexyback, Please Don't Stop the Music) and lotsa stops in between.

Then a funny thing happened.

We got to the end of the gig, and all the people on the dancfloor rushed up to us and demanded to know what that "weird Pole" was. I said that's our PA.

Well...

They all fell to their knees and started chanting in worshipful tones for several minutes.

THEN...

Several of them produced coloured ribbons from their pockets and tied them to the top of the Bose and started dancing merrily around the pole singing "Hey Nonny Nonny, we love the Bose"

(It was weird I can tell you...)

NEXT

The Manager came up and demanded to know how we got that sound, or, as he put it, the best Darn sound he had EVER heard ANYWHERE!
I said, well it's the Bose of course silly, and he IMMEDIATELY doubled our pay for the night!

UNBELIEVABLY

The Bar staff came over and led us round to behind the Bar, where they said we could have our pick of ANY top shelf drink (I chose some Frangelico - an Italian Hazelnut Liqueur, and my wife, Rose, chose an 80 year old Bottle of Red) so apologies for the late reply...it was a hell of a night when we got back home!
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#167751 - 05/23/08 08:16 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
mikeathome1 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1208
Loc: Syracuse NY
I wonder about the " Bose 'fan'aticism" is it the guy that has shopped around tried different systems and finally bought one brought it home and learned how to use it and set it up to his best advantage? And now would like to share his experience.

Or is it the guy that has never owned one, never used one, maybe heard one used badly but hijacks every thread to "explain" to you the owner and user of the Bose It'll never work. And you and your audience are just fooling yourselves.
We all know "on paper" the light bulb will never work, the telephone isn't practical and those automobiles will never replace the horse and buggy. And of course bumble bees can't fly. Oh and "the sky is falling,the sky is falling".

But I just have to wonder who is the fanatic ?

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 05-23-2008).]
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#167752 - 05/23/08 10:57 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Provide your own definitions of anything, and you will always be right (in your own mind )

Go online, and look at the HORIZONTAL dispersion of any PRO line array. Find one that is 180? Didn't think so...

Next...


Your're kidding right? I hope so. Because modern Arena Systems deliver more than 180 degrees of DIRECT sound. Why is that? Because DIRECT sound is the best sound. Reflected sound is trash. Your argument doesn't deserve merit on the basis of a pro system not being behind the musicians as the Bose can be. The reasons for that are obvious to ....well perhaps not to you. One of the nice things about the Bose is it can and does offer the direct dispersion of sound evenly across horizontal plane and yet does not require the monitoring system of a massive PA. (Partly due to each member wanting separate monitor mixes.


The only Small venue OMB or Duo PA system that offers direct sound at nearly 180 degrees is the Bose PAS. The idea is for EVERYONE in front of the act to hear the sound as if they are sitting in front of conventional speakers. Any conventional speakers.

This isn't fanaticism..Its applying big time pro lever sound projection to a small venue. Anyone who has been to a concert can understand the importance hearing the source material DIRECTLY and not reflected of the walls,floors, and ceilings.

The Bose is not meant to be a PA for huge venues. It is meant to deliver the even sound a pro level arena system is designed to deliver. IN that regard it does exactly that.

In order for someone to poo poo the Bose system they have to be coming from the "Power and loud" school of good rather than "clarity everyone hears the same without reflection" good. Power does not trump quality and clarity of the source material unless it is in an array offering even distribution of content with the proper power applied to minimize inevitable reflections.




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-23-2008).]
_________________________
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Casio PX-330
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