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#167733 - 05/19/08 12:31 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I am getting really tired of this 'sweet spot' rubbish. I thought I had explained this well enough in the past. You have a stereo at home, I presume? Do you turn it into mono, or switch off one of the speakers unless you are sitting in the 'sweet spot'?

No, you do not.

And yet (and this is blindingly simple to test) you can discern that there IS a stereo signal from most points in the room. Yes, of course, it is not the PERFECT spot for absolutely pinpoint imagery, but until you get a very considerable distance from it (basically, another room, if you are in a house, or at the back of a large hall in venue, you CAN discern that the music is not mono, and has a spaciousness that mono cannot provide.

Simply make a test file of a piece of music, and take random sections of it, and turn them into mono, and leave some stereo. Sit anywhere in your room (or stand anywhere in a larger venue (except directly in front of one of the stacks within 1/5 of the distance between the stacks) and play it back. If you cannot hear what sections are stereo and which sections are mono, I suggest a trip to an audiologist...

It is entirely your choice to use mono or stereo, I don't care either way. But to keep repeating obvious (and easily checked) misinformation about it's effectiveness is a disservice to the forum.

Look, the PAS has many strong points. But you don't get brownie points for playing down it's weaknesses. They exist. It doesn't do stereo well, so what do you say? 'the "Sweet Spot" is very narrow with conventional systems'

And that, gentlemen is pure spin... Or, if you prefer, a "snide, exaggerated 'comment' - to put it politely" in your words. You CAN discern stereo over a MUCH wider angle and distance than just the 'sweet spot'. Downplaying the importance of stereo just because your choice of PA cannot do it well smacks of the 'fan'aticism that I was referring to.

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#167734 - 05/19/08 03:13 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40926
Wow!! I agree with Diki two times in one week great post!!

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#167735 - 05/19/08 03:46 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
I must say I'm with Diki on this one as well.

Good post...makes total sense.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#167736 - 05/19/08 05:46 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Diki, you're getting too worked up about this (and that's coming from me!).

You yourself are putting too much of a spin on what is being said - a "spin on a spin" if you will. For my money, a sweet spot can be quite large and STILL "miss" people. This isn't just the "back of a room" argument, but a "side seating" argument, which I've explained previously.

In addition, sweet spot should also refer to volume level - i.e. a "Hotspot of volume" which point source speakers have, and Line Arrays and speakers exhibiting Line Array Properties (the Bose is , after all, a scaled down Line Array when it's all said and done) do not.

Or as KF put it previously"

"For those reasons people usually say the Bose sounds "clear" and they can hear themselves talk AND the Music because there are no harsh hot spots. People on the sides are not asking to turn it up while people in the front are asking to turn it down. Of course the performer has no idea what they hear because he is using a monitor that is sending reflections off the ceiling and back wall.....All the sound waves bouncing around the room because the system has to be LOUD enough to fill the room cause MUD and are eliminated with the Bose because the sound is evenly dispersed in a 180 degree area. Ironically, You can actually play louder with the Bose because you don't have all these reflections to deal with. Clarity and Volume. The Holy Grail of a good PA Set up and mixer. Clarity in the ROOM, not just coming from the system."

(Sorry to cut n paste, but I felt he put that better than I could have).

If you want stereo you can have it with 2 PAS systems, which many people have done (and many have not) the result, apparently, is a huge amount of stereo coverage due to the wide dispersion of just one system, and indeed a large amount of Stereo crossover if you will, for the same reason.

I wouldn't do it for 2 reasons

1. Expense (for me).
2. Defeats the purpose (somewhat) of a quick setup and ease of transport (double the amount of systems to carry & load in.
3. It's just not necessary (for me)

Diki, nobody (I hope) is trying to exaggerate the "evils" of stereo, and the God given "goodness" of Mono. You are the one, I feel, who is turning this into a Stereo vs Mono debate, and focusing too much on that - I mean that sincerely - there's MUCH more to the Bose *discussion* then that.

Please stop referring to me (at least) as a fanatic, that's also misinformation, and putting a spin on things.

(I guess you don't know me personally, but if you re-read my posts, I've tried to be fair and objective - I have, at least, created an entire thread devoted to the Bose emotionalism topic, so we can all have a fair discussion on the topic without fanaticism.)

If you'll permit me, one more cut n paste from the beginning of the thread I just mentioned:

"1. I think people CAN have their own opinions on ANY piece of gear, philosophy, working methods, Religion, favourite colour...WHATEVER.

2. I don't think, and have never said, that the Bose system is for everyone, and people can love the sound, hate the sound, judge the sound as is their right.

3. I'm not espousing the system in this thread - even though you all know what side of the fence I'm on - I want an honest civil discussion.

4. Failing that, I'm happy for this thread to degenerate sooner or later into a Love/Hate Attack/Defend diatribe (from BOTH sides) because maybe this thread can be like a "virtual swear Jar" where people can post things as nasty as they like if it keeps other threads from being "Bose polluted".

I hope that comes across as fair.

Also, just a bit further down I stated:

"I've even had emails from more than one Synthzone member (and they will remain anonymous) advising me on the system in PRIVATE so as not to cause trouble!!

I mean, when was the last time someone on a forum felt they had to hold "secret talks" about some PA gear for fear of ridicule or attack????"


Now THAT'S Fanaticism.
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#167737 - 05/19/08 11:14 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Look, think what you will, hellboy. Not EVERYTHING is about you! Both you and Kingfrog trotted out the lame stereo issue this time around, and several have tried the same spin in the past , so my reply was not just aimed at you (I actually quoted KF as well as you), but for the whole forum to read. Agree or disagree with it how you like. It doesn't change the facts.

The Bose system in a mono ONLY system. Do a search on their website, if you don't believe me. There isn't a single mention of the word stereo anywhere in the entire PAS section. This system is specifically designed to NOT be in stereo, but to have multiple mono units (one for each player). And even that won't provide a stereo image, precisely because of the non-localized nature of the sound (stereo works by having TWO localized sound sources, with a left and right perceived signal interacting with your ears to create the illusion of a 2D image in the middle).

There are quite a few reported issues with people getting WAY less than good results while trying to achieve stereo from this system (do a search here for stereo and PAS). Phasing issues, poor imaging, all what you would expect. Bose make stereo systems, for home theater, music AND PA, and would certainly advertise this capability IF it was possible.

Look, I'm happy it works for you. Congratulations. Me, I've played in stereo for decades. Curiously, I also have rarely come across the 'turn it up, turn it down syndrome', nor has anyone EVER complained about being in a poor spot to hear the stereo. So, a PAS isn't going to fix any problems I have, because I don't have them! Maybe just knowing how to set the PA up optimally is all it takes, Who knows?

Anyway, this is rapidly devolving into a infinitely decreasing spiral (and we all know where those end up!), so I am done with this. I am happy you have found a solution that works for you, but no amount of spin is going to convince me that the PAS is the solution for me, or anyone that likes stereo. Having already tried it (like many others here), I really don't need anyone to change my mind. It's superiority is NOT unquestioned, it does have significant flaws, but if you can ignore them (I can't) it can be a great system....

Now, how about a bit more talk about what MUSIC you are actually playing through them, as I think this is FAR more important than what you play through?

Hell, maybe even a snippet or two...

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#167738 - 05/19/08 11:23 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
You could even post in mono if you wanted to...

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#167739 - 05/20/08 01:46 AM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Why do my posts (specifically the last one) strike you as all about me?

I only state that The Bose "works for me" (and variants of same) because
a)It's true.
b)It's a fair way to state things.
c) You yourself (and most other reasonable people on the boards) use this way of speaking about their favoured systems so people DON'T think whatever system they happen to be espousing is the "be all and end all".

You are either not understanding me, or deliberately being obtuse - I really can't work out which one.
For the record : I'm happy you're happy too! (Have I ever said otherwise - really???)

Now, when I said:
"the result, apparently, is a huge amount of stereo coverage due to the wide dispersion of just one system, and indeed a large amount of Stereo crossover if you will, for the same reason."

I meant "crossover" in a bad way (implying phasing amongst other issues) so if I didn't make myself clear, then that's my bad.

Below is a "Bose-Wiki" link that you may have missed (as you only seem to make reference to the forums themselves as your primary source of Bose info), that describes a way to playback a Stereo signal between two Systems - I believe it involves utilizing an auxiliary output.
http://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/index.php?title=T1_ToneMatch%C2%AE_Audio_Engine_/_USB_/_Output_Stereo_to_Two_L1%C2%AEs

(I hope the link as I've pasted it works btw).

You do your OWN searches for other examples if you like (mainly in the DJ sections I believe) and I hope that satisfies. I haven't done Stereo searches much (or reading) because I've been too busy reading up about other tech/sound/setup issues that affect me more directly.

Even if it doesn't satisfy you, I don't mind, I'm not as interested in running in Stereo Live as you are - I simply brought it up because you did, it wasn't the centrepiece of my argument, and I don't regard the ability of the PAS to do stereo (or not) as one of it's significant flaws that's your opinion and perception.

I'm glad you're done with this - maybe it will stop the pointless discussions - I'm more over this than YOU are I can tell you.

As for posting any Demos of us (my Wife and I) Audio or Video, (Stereo or Mono), and whether you're really interested, or whether it's just an attempt to divert the conversation away from this long diatribe (and I don't blame you there) you can't have any!

Why?

Because we haven't recorded anything Live for quite sometime, so I don't want to show my "baby pictures" so to speak (not many people do - least of all me).
Studio wise (original songs) I don't think we'd have anything of interest to the vast majority of forum members - yet.....

(You see we're setting up a Basement Studio in the next few months so I'll gladly share the fruits of THAT labour then)

In other words, when we have something worth showing - that's recent - I'll show it.

(Thanks for asking )
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BUT...

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#167740 - 05/20/08 04:15 AM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 11588
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
.....fight nice, children.
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Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... these are are all my private tutors ... 24/7 for free, and all I have to do is listen.

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#167741 - 05/20/08 05:55 AM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40926
Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:
I keep reading where the Bose PAS system is so expensive,,,,Actually its a bargain.


Wheres the so called Bargain if you need "TWO" complete PAS systems for STEREO plus carry all those pieces too?

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#167742 - 05/21/08 02:18 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Diki you are confusing "sweet spot" with STEREO..Stereo is terrible when reflected off walls on one side and heard directlyu on the other, Yeah its differnt but that not a good difference. It's "rubbish" to claim stereo sopund great even when not time aligned. It simply does not.

In all systems whether mono or stereo there is a spot where you are hearing the sound DIRECTLY from the speakers. Unfortualy due to room limitations present in small clubs those who are not sitting within direct line of the speakers are hearing reflecions. The bane of good audio.

When you add different material (a la Stereo) coming to the ears off the far walls at different times...simply... mud results. Yeah you can hear the difference between mono and stereo sitting on the crapper in the club. And?. but thats not to say its GOOD..just that there is a difference. The various timing of seperate channels of frequencies hitting the ear can mess up a stereo signal pretty badly. No way can anyone convince me reflections off the far walls of the right channel arriving milliseconds late from the direct sound from the left channel sounds anything but terrible no matter how loud it is (which makes it worse).

The BEST sound is CLEAR unreflected sound spread EVENLY across the listening plane. whether mono or stereo. The Bose system does this better then any single or dual speaker system I have ever used or heard in a typical OMB club environment. I have been doing this stuff for years as well and there is no current dual speaker system AT ANY price or power better for equal sound dispersion along a 180 plane then the Bose used a typical OMB or duo situation. I have tried many systems and currently have a really nice and higher priced Mackie/JBL system sitting unused in favor of the Bose.

I humbly add we are fortunate enough to buy any system on the market without regard to price and again the Bose mod II system is the best by a long shot on many levels that go beyond the clarity and consistancy of the sound for our purposes. And its not as expensive as most top end conventional similarly powered systems

I really believe some people see" nothing" and have an issue with the price beacause they see just a pole. They are stuck in a paradiam. Stuck in convention. The same "conventioal thought" by those who cannot imagine a concert in mono even though most huge shows are mono mixes by design.
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