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#167723 - 05/18/08 03:37 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
As you say... apples and oranges.

Playing elderly materiel for the elderly crowd in a low volume, even distribution gig is as far away as you can get to providing contemporary music at contemporary volumes to today's clubbers, where the dance floor NEEDS to be several orders of magnitude louder than the rest of the venue. Or taking rock music to rock club levels.

As such, two completely different forms of PA are needed, both of which are totally unsuited for the other's job...

The problem here at SZ usually rises from one form of PA user assuming that ALL other jobs and situations are the same as what they are doing successfully with the form of PA best suited for it. Which, of course, is patently ridiculous. Strokes for folks... You can no more do a full dance floor gig with a Bose PAS at REAL dance floor levels, than you can a country club gig with a massive PA/DJ rig.

Some of you haven't been to a youngsters' night club for a while, have you? Or been out to hear a rock band (or funk band, or 'emo' band, or...) or anything else much, lately. I can assure you, no PAS system (unless it is HUGE and unaffordable) can get even close to those volume levels (that the audience WANT ).

The PAS is an excellent system at doing ONE thing. Providing crystal clear sound at low to medium volume levels in mono with a very wide and even dispersion pattern. If you need this, it's your huckleberry... But if you need more conventional concert volumes, at CONTEMPORARY levels, it is, IMO, a very poor choice.

There is nothing wrong with this... nothing is the master of ALL trades. But I sure wish some of the PAS cheerleaders would recognize that there ARE situations where it is NOT the best choice, by a long shot. Many dance venues need the music to be it's loudest on the dance floor, and as quick a drop-off after that as possible. The PAS actually works against you in these situations.

I just wish we could quit 'evangelizing' these equipment purchases, and make a more realistic opinion about their strengths, and acknowledge what weaknesses they DO have. An unwillingness to admit ANY flaw simply comes off as 'fan'aticism...

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#167724 - 05/18/08 05:01 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40821
A six piece band should have SIX PAS units & subs because that's what it was intended for not a band PA! "Personal Amplification System" Just because some find it appealing to use it as a Full band sound unit doesn't change BOSE intended use which is being overly abused.........I too took the hype & plunge at first introduction .....but after I really started to get into the bigger gigs I knew I needed more....way more then 2 subs could provide.So I dumped it....People also always want to justify their money spent too on this unit which IMO Is way too much.. but thats another story......

Gotta agree with Diki on this one...

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 05-18-2008).]

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#167725 - 05/18/08 05:31 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Woah!

Hold it right there.


I AM younger than most people on this board (if not all) and I DO play "Club gigs", high energy dance gigs to young crowds (and old crowds, drunk crowds, "pub" crowds etc etc) - and btw I thought we were all about Church gigs here, when did Dance Club gigs and young audiences come into the argument?

Nevertheless I've made it perfectly clear in previous posts (obviously nobody gives a toss what I think) that the PAS cuts it for young crowds - younger than most of you guys play to AND fills a room with Great. Loud. Clear Bass - anyone remember CLEAR Bass?
(Actually even Chest thumping, if it's loud enough - but not to the level where it hurts you - in a bad way - like traditional club speakers that go further than the Bose can).

In our experience, the only people that have problems with the Bose, are people OTHER than the audience.....if you know what I mean.

We stopped anxiously asking the dance crowds "is the sound alright?" a loooong time ago.

Btw KF, you were SPOT ON regarding that "Traditionalists" comment - spot on.

(Would anyone care to follow me over to the thread I created for just such an occasion as this?)
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#167726 - 05/18/08 06:01 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40821
Quote:
Originally posted by hellboy44:

and btw I thought we were all about Church gigs here, when did Dance Club gigs and young audiences come into the argument?


I wouldn't assume anything, if your that young you have alot to learn, most here have 30-40 years of pro giggin' experience from clubs & EVERYTHING else in-between way before you were around & way before arrangers & Bose Pas systems.....know your facts

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#167727 - 05/18/08 06:07 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Predictable response,(and weird quoting) and bad spelling (You are = you're).


Like I said, see you all in the "Bose thread."
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#167728 - 05/18/08 06:23 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40821
I'm glad you now understand my post....
have a wonderful day.

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#167729 - 05/18/08 06:38 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Thing is, hellboy, you're assuming that those of us that reject the PAS haven't even heard it, or something, I'm not sure what. But simply thinking 'to know it is to love it', when faced by several here that HAVE bought it, and rejected it (see above), or those like myself who have heard others through them, and tried them out in stores extensively, and rejected them, is to deny the fact that it isn't for everyone, or every venue.

Like I said, in my particular case, I dislike the even coverage, and, to my ears, somewhat anemic mids. Most venues I play do NOT want the same volume all over the club. They want it concentrated on the dancefloor area, and a decent volume, but they want it lower in the rest of the room. PAS cannot do that.

But please don't assume that no-one that rejects it doesn't know what they are talking about. If I hadn't heard and tried it, I would not be giving an opinion! We are happy it works for YOU, and many others here. Just don't get upset if it doesn't work for everybody. I'm not ramming MY choice in PA's down anyone's throat. It isn't for everyone, despite sounding incredible. It works for ME. But if it doesn't work for everybody else, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Finally, don't even START to assume that this forum is entirely OMB NH gig players. There's a lot more diversity here than meets the eye (you're here, aren't you? )...

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#167730 - 05/18/08 09:23 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Well we have 20-30 years of pro gigging and ended up with the PAS system. We have the JBLs, the Mackies, The Subs....But always choose the Bose. Most of whet we play is Keyboard guitar and sequences with pre recorded break music.

We have never had a "can you turn it down" Can you turn it up" "suggestion" since using the Bose. We got that all the time using the conventional systems becasue of the hot spots ,reflections, and limited dispersion conventional arrays have,

Like studio monitors the "Sweet Spot" is very narrow with conventional systems. Thats why concert systems use wide arrays of speakers rather then just two huge ones facing forward like typical band PAs.

They are trying to achieve the Bose effect in a huge way by using wide dispersion arrays of speakers in semi circles. The Bose system eliminates that issue totally at a nearly 180 degree field. THAT's the beauty of the system for some and the bain for others. Everyone including the performer is in The "sweet spot" , Everyone including the performer hears the same sound albeit at different levels determined by distance from the source.

Some people like exaggerated bass response. They need 18's for those 30hx frequencies and a ton of power. The Bose will not deliver in those cases.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#167731 - 05/18/08 09:28 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Diki, I was responding directly to your own assertion that some players here don't play to younger crowds, I responded because I often do. I don't understand why you say I'm the one fobbing off the Synthzone community in this way when one of the main points of your post was that some people on the boards don't play to young dance crowds and don't realise the kind of sound levels/dynamics/energy required to play to that kind of crowd.

I do.

(None of the older members pulled YOU up on this *below* I notice)

"Some of you haven't been to a youngsters' night club for a while, have you? Or been out to hear a rock band (or funk band, or 'emo' band, or...) or anything else much, lately."

I know you've heard the PAS, please don't tell me what I'm assuming as, let's face it, BOTH of us assume enough for the entire board! (smiley inserted genuinely)

The only thing that gets my goat is the snide, exaggerated "comments" - to put it politely - re the Bose, that masquerade as critique (or argument) as if they somehow settle the matter.

I'm no evangelist and have been very level headed about all this IMO.
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#167732 - 05/18/08 09:29 PM Re: JBL's VRX 900 vs new Bose L1 Model II
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
I keep reading where the Bose PAS system is so expensive,,,,Actually its a bargain.

Consider this.
A conventional PA needs a couple power amps which can run $1000 right there, now add a couple JBL MR15s and Subs, Bamm another $1500 or more. Now add a digital mixer.....Powered monitor speakers or hotspots, Cabling and stands as well as the proverbial truck needed to transport and time needed to set up and all of a sudden the Bose PAS looks like a hell of a value....Becasue it is,

If you use a Mackie 808 you will still end up at or more than $3000

If you use SRM450s Theres $1500 right there. No subs, no mixer, no stands, no cables.....And those are nice speakers IF you are sitting in their Sweet spot which isn;t nearly 180 degrees and those who are are still getting floor and ceiling reflections mucking up the works becasue they have to be turned up so those not in the sweet spot can hear the reflections bouncing of the walls........
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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