As I also prepare to do an elderly job, I find it difficult to switch from style playing to midi file playing.

I enjoy the exciting on-the-fly playing experience of styles and quite the opposite while accompanying a recording - boring and a notch above karaoke.

The irony is that playing with a midi is very difficult, especially if no chords are given. To top it off, if I listen to the original piano parts (or parts that I should minus one) I feel like a bumbling idiot as I try to mimick that track!

Kind of a two edge sword if you ask me.

Question that's been kicked around a lot I'd suppose:

Is it possible to play a gig, all venues, with just style playing?

Who does it, or what % of styles vs. midi/mp3?

zuki

I do almost 100% styles. I use a few midi files, but I'm perfectly comfortable without them, and sometimes go all week without using one.
I use a midi file on Suspicious Minds, Wooly Bully, and a few Sinatra songs when I don't feel like playing them.
I also have the themes from a bunch of old tv shows that I sometimes play "name that show" with, maybe a couple times a year!
DonM

Zuki,

I'm pretty much with Don on this one. I have tons of midi files, some of which are really good, and while there some wonderful advantages of using midi files, there are disadvantages as well. This is particularly true if you have a dancefloor that begins to fill with people about halfway through the midi file. Sure, some keyboards will allow you to go back to a certain point in the file, but most do not. Consequently, that midi file has a specific length and when it's over--it's over. The advantage of using a style for the same song is the song isn't over until you want it to end.

As for playing along with a midi file, I cannot read sheet music, therefore it has never been a problem because the songs are all in my head. There are some advantages of playing by ear, and I guess that's just one of them. However, one of these days, before I'm out of this business, I'm going to make another concerted effort to learn to read sheet music--it's just something I gotta' do one day!


Good Luck,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

I have never used MIDI files in a performance, always preferring the flexibility and control that using the style gives me.

I rarely use a factory, or a third party style as is...I always modify to make my sound as unique as possible.

I certainly have nothing against the use of MIDI files...to each their own.

Whatever works...


Ian

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Remember to leave good news alone.

SMF is just another tool in my musical arsenal......you can customize them for backup or to play along if needed....
SMF are also very useful when you need CUSTOM 16 tracks for an arrangement that an arranger style just cant do....or if Im doing a big vocal song Im not playing with as backing tracks or if your gonna play along memorize the music and Improvise making it your own .....most of my SMF get rendered into MP3's....you have to juggle your tools every night depending on the gig...otherwise you can get a bit boring to the audience........technology is available to us .....embrace it any way you can.

SMFs are very important if you have to play songs that the piano is up front... playing with just one hand doesn't cut it.... Then, if you wish to use the bender extensively on a song, forget about arranger play...... If you wish to play a secondary instrument (trombone, in my case!) forget arranger play....

Mind you, all of the above situations would be possible on an arranger if they just brought back the f-ing CHORD SEQUENCER....!

I didn't used to use alot of midi's. A few months ago, I went on a search to find good midi's and came up with quite a few that are really good and cannot be duped with a style. So, now, I used quite a bit and about 80% of the time with those, I play guitar over them.

------------------
Bill
smallGig.com
:::
As a songwriter, I need feedback on songs posted! Thanks!

Hasn't anyone tried the new MM4.04? http://www.midimaestro.com/index.html

Appreciate the replies:

Good to know there are the "hard core" successful arranger players out there.

I can also appreciate where dnj and semi are coming from, as I haven't ruled out midi/mp3 at this stage.

Semi - any midi links?

Diki, I am cheating as I hit the arranger setup button while on a midi, and just play R1 while faking the left hand (muted) - thus, don't have to really play full scale. Ghads, makes me want to puke.

Vquestor - have you purchased this software?

Best regards,

zuki

I posted this answer long ago, but it seems time to resurect it !

I've been performing as a solo artist since WAY before arrangers or midi were introduced. I played straight piano(Rhodes) first, then added Moog bass(left hand) then a drum machine and finally, when midi was introduced ... I layered a synth with a second sound for my right hand "color" sounds while keeping a dedicated keyboard for piano parts.
This lasted till the arrangers finally put good sounding drum machines in the keyboards. after that ... I slimmed down to just one keyboard, but still played all the bass and piano parts live to the rhythm machine looped patterns.
At first - the idea of using an "oom paa" (arranger) backing was unacceptable to me, but slowly, the patterns got better and better .... so I caved and used a few at a time. I spaced them out and used the arranger sparingly.

With the advent of midi ...many players started using sequences to add the hands that they could not provide, and give them a competitive edge with guys like me - that could get a party dancing with just MY hands. Well ................ the midi sounds got better and better, and pretty soon, the accepted "norm" in the trenches (clubs and parties) included at least at SOME level ... midi backing tracks. This was all taking place at the same time that the "K" word was being introduced from Japan. The K-Jays were getting about $300 or more per show to just emcee the night. Made me sad ... but I still worked the same schedule. 5 and 6 night a week and lots of afternoon parties and studio sessions. DJ's only hurt the bad musicians, or bad business people.

If you were a singer or guitarist in the 70's and 80's working clubs and eeking out a living ..... it became almost impossible as the 90's drew near. Bands were downsized to fit the diminishing budgets in the rooms and rising insurance rates due to DUI laws kept the clubs from paying a lot for live music. The returns just weren't there. At least at a "K" show .... people came in. Granted - they act like morons, but they DO fill the seats.

My point is this:

Many fine singers, drummers, guitarists etc. that used to work a lot were out of work all of a sudden due to downsizing. What do you do if you are the piano player in a 5 piece band? You play piano right? Do you play everyone else's parts too? NO.
I see nothing wrong with playing YOUR instrument to the capacity you are able, along with accompaniments by either live musicians, midi tracks or arranger patterns.

I see no difference in the validity of the performance.

My people come to see me make a show.
I make parties.
I set tempos.
I pick WHAT to do and WHEN.
I get paid to keep the action rolling.
I sometimes use arranger patterns, sometimes manual bass and drums, sometimes midi sequences, and sometimes I use custom made audio tracks from my studio with backing vocals and extra instruments. All these tools provide me with a means to an end. They allow me to express my creative talents to make a show.
Pushing fill-ins and selecting variations takes as much time, energy and expertise as it does to play creative, two fisted parts on a kb while a sequence plays the rest of the band's parts. Just like we ALL used to do when we had live playing members in the band. Remember bands?????

I miss playing funky clav parts to disco and R&B tunes. It's much more authentic and energetic if I sequence the backing tracks and play my ass off on the D6 or the Rhodes. Even when I play bass ... I can manage to get the groove happenin' with just those 2 hands, but it's harder to make a full sound because SOMETHING is always left out.

I like arrangers. I like sequences. I like simple piano chords. In short ......

I

Like

Music.

I like playing it, and I like the people to like LISTENING and DANCING to it.
I find that mostly - senior audiences are the quickest to accept a "canned" arrangement of a song, while the younger crowds definitely respond to the sequences more. I am STILL working the keys and the crowd ... but in a different way.

My basic rule of thumb is this:

If it WORKS .... keep doing it.

So many times at weddings you'll hear 4 or 5 fast, modern tunes in a row and only a handful of barefoot, beer-drinking girls are dancing. Then a slow standard comes on and the floor FILLS up! Does the entertainer follow that with another slow one? Usually no. They change gears again and lose MOST of the dance floor.
Idiot behavior. Give 'em what they like.

Today's music is getting more and more "signature" specific with certain riffs and catch phrases that make it impossible for an arranger pattern to do justice to the song. If your crowd is over 40 (55 really) .... you have a shot at acceptance using arranger patterns, but the younger people see it as "hokey" and sophmorish.
I tend to agree. In low volume settings, especially. Sequences are lame when played softly. They need the energy from the movement of air, since there is NO one sending the energy into the performance at THAT specific moment.

In many cases - I'd rather play a left hand bass line and right hand chords to a drum beat than use a generic, overused pattern that sounds like every other player that owns a PA80. I like that intimate, small combo sound that only manual bass can provide. There is much more energy and "groove" when the piano and bass are in sync. For bigger sound - the sequence is the winner. The arranger fits somewher in between the two. (easy fellas ....... it's just MY views)

To summarize ....... there is NOTHING fake about using backing patterns, tracks, sequences, or whatever - as long as YOU are in control of the performance and you are playing YOUR part along with it. If you want to be a "front person" - that's OK too ... just don't fake it on dead keys. Get out in front and sing to the clients. They are VERY used to that concept.
Playing arrangers is a shortcut to a good sound, but it should not be a DESTINATION to aspire to. Use these tools to help you learn how to put it all together .... then go do it ! The important thing is energy. That comes from hard work Learn the parts !

Which song has so many repetitions as used in playing with styles? It makes songs boring.
Arrangerproducers make lots of efforts to produce interesting styles. But each song is individual with characteristics of its own.
"Styles" make them "all the same"
Playing along with midifiles can be big fun anyway and give the performance a necessary portion of dynamics and individualism.
Not to speak of lousy keyboardplayers like me, who plays the guitar and just likes to be accompanied by basslines and drums

Hi.

To me use of midifiles and mp3 playback or whatever when a song
are sequensed ready to just press play = KARAOKE!
You're stuck to whats programmed when you press play, can't add
a refrain or lenghten a solo when dancefloor is full and people
having fun.
When play with styles, you have that freedom all the time, and
you're using the style and chordprogression your way, by use mp3
midifiles etc, you just follow already done (or others work),
and at the end, most "discjokeys" sounds the same, cause they use
the same records.
I know midifiles can be edited, but so can styles, just the way
you like them to play.

Happy Playing.
GJ

...I'm 100% Styles for any gig. I find trying to work with MIDI's feels restrictive to me, although guys like Esh have taken it to a new level...

...From what I understand, if you know your instruments capabilities w/regard to MIDI operation, you can easily "mark" sections of the midi file and repeat or jump to any section of a tune you want...

...As far as Styles being too repetitive, I think its more a commentary on the user, not the style. My arrangers have been both tyros' and a psr-3k. With all of these boards, you have an impressive range of option on how to make the kb work for you. From the various intro, variations, endings to the multipads to dropping the accompianment at a point, etc...Combine these option with the available options in things like your piano/kb part (that you're playing), changes in dynamics, vocal style, etc...

There's a million different ways to keep tunes fresh, and its on us to make sure we don't get in a rut.

Bill in Dayton

You mean to indivicual songs? No, just chosen after going through countless midi's. If you mean how to find midi's, there's www.musicrobot.com and www.vanbasco.com.



------------------
Bill
smallGig.com
:::
As a songwriter, I need feedback on songs posted! Thanks!

That looks VERY interesting, Vquestor. They also have a beauty of a website. Very clean design.

------------------
Bill
smallGig.com
:::
As a songwriter, I need feedback on songs posted! Thanks!

No, I don't have the software, but tried
a demo a few years ago.
I believe it still does not have time stretching for audio(to allow syncing tempo changes of audio to the midi file). If it did, I think it would be ideal, due to it's clean interface.

Vendors have added the ability to "remix" a midi file , but many people don't use the features.. I have the SD1, if I use a midi file in performance, I try to remix the drum tracks with Sd1 tracks as much as possible...


Another example is wav syncipation, great idea, but sifficult to implement easily...

I have found that crowds will recognize a song from a midi sequence quicker vs. using generic styles..

Yamaha allows you to syncipate a midi sequence with one of their styles, which in turn can give a midi sequence a different feel, but not many people use the feature imo....

Dan O'

Hi Dan,

Is this possible on the 3000?

Regards,
zuki

It sure is, Zuki. Just start a midi file, and while it's playing ... select a similar drum beat and press the arranger start button. The midifile drum track dissapears and the arranger (drummer only)takes over. It's cool sometimes.

It's worth pointing out that styles ARE midi files, and since they are repeated so often in a song they tend to sound more like mechanized accompaniment than SMF's which can be given a lot more variety. I randomize the velocity of my SMF drums and backing instruments so they have a human feel that doesn't tire the ears. You can do that with styles too but since each phrase is just a few bars long and then repeated infinitely the randomization is short lived and becomes it's own predictable pattern. I use styles now and then but SMF's just give me a better and more complex sound. And it makes a difference that I am a pianist - styles really tie down your left hand and I prefer the flow of having both hands working together melodically as opposed to splitting up their duties. With SMF's and MP3's you also have the option of performing with an acoustic piano, thus widening the range of gigs you can do.

I used to be 100% styles also. In the last couple of years, I've begun using SMF's and MP3's so I can take the mic and go out into the crowd. This has been very effective as it breaks up the routine behind the keyboard. I use a Ketron MidJay which is loaded with many backing tracks for larger jobs. For smaller jobs, I use SMF's played through the Tyros and that works great. Like I say, it's great every few songs to take the mic out and sing to the crowd, get out on the dance floor, ect. It makes for good entertainment.

Joe

------------------
Songman55
Joe Ayala

Yes of course, but that can be done without a arrangerkeyboard, a
midifileplayer or karaokemachine would do the backing.
But what if the audience having as good time that they start to
sing the refrain once again while your ending plays, not easy to
follow up then? Unless do it acapella I mean.

Please, misunderstand me right, everyone most do what they feel is
right for them, what I mean is that to playback midifiles do not
give me the freedom that use of styles do.

Happy Playing
GJ

Yes, styles are data sent and stored in same way as midifiles, but
maybe most people talk about midifiles as recorded songs ready for
playback?
Technics and Ketron have a feature called "pianist-mode" who let you
play with the styles even if you play as a pianist. Besides of that,
it's also possible to play manual bass, so the use of styles sure
can be varied a lot.
Repetitions? Well, as far as I can hear, most all songs are build up
by a lot of repeats. Intro, verse, refrain, bridge and end.
But then again, good keyboards and well made styles don't have to be
boring, even my old KN1000 had a nice feature called "dynamic accomp"
who made some nice changes simply by press the left hand keys a bit
harder.

Happy Playing
GJ

Thats easy to do by using SMF markers...Midijay has em & most Roland arrangers also..while the SMF is playing just set Markerpoints and you can then just jump back & forth anywhere in the song....

Yeah, I know, but:

While you're down the floor amomg the audience?
And when you're at the end of the song, how long
time does it take to do the edit, cause you'll
never know when it's needed when perform live?

Cheers
GJ

One of the main differences between SMFs and styles, IMO, is the bass lines.......

Too few even acknowledge the importance that a good bassline makes to the structure of a song, and the nature of direction it can show. Arranger play, with it's short repeated SMFs (that's all a style is, after all), never gets the bassline to indicate a chord change.

In a real bassline, the bass player knows what the next chord is, and shapes his bassline to go towards it, thus giving the changes a sense of structure. In an arranger, the bassline never knows what chord is next (until you actually play it!), so it bassically (!) just sits there, until, whoops! now it is playing another chord. No connection, no shape, no flow.......

For me, it is one of the most glaring differences between a real rhythm section, and arranger play. Now add in the fact that ALL the arranger parts are doing the same thing, to a greater or lesser degree, and you have the REAL difference between arrangers and SMFs. At least, to my ears, it is night and day.

So, in a nutshell, you gain the ability to change form and structure with an arranger, at the cost of smooth flow and a sense of coherence.

Add to that the fact that many of us here, home players and less skilled musicians (no disrespect intended, just an acknowledgment of the facts), are addicted to arranger play because it allows them to mess up the melody or structure and have the accompaniment STILL follow them rather than get lost..... In a REAL band situation, you lose your place, the guys are going to give you some hard looks! But with an arranger, you can blithely ignore the correct changes, or structure and no-one is the wiser (especially you!), and this often gives a sense of security that you don't get when you use SMFs.

Remember, SMFs do not have to be full arrangements. Far better to use them as a rhythm section - bass, drums, maybe guitar if you don't play with a guitarist - and play what you would play if you were in a live band, than to use them as glorified karaoke, and risk the disbelief disconnect with your audience.

I have often thought about arranger playing as a wasteful way to immobilize your left hand, doing something that a monkey could do, just to gain the dubious advantage of changing the structure of a song if the audience really needs it, when a set of markers in an SMF could rearrange it just as easily.

OK, perhaps there ARE some of you out there that are great jazzers, capable of reharmonizing and substituting chords like crazy. Good for you! But I suspect it is a VERY small percentage of our membership here..... Most of you tie up your left hands just inputting the same old set of changes every time. Why not record the arranger into a sequencer (just the accompaniment), edit it to have better voice leading, and put in markers for each section?

It is going to sound identical to what you are currently doing (other than have better chord transitions), and free up your LH to do what it can. A 100% increase in what YOU actually play, rather than the machine. Not too shabby.

I realize I'm going to upset some of the 'arranger purists', but personally, I refuse to let a technique arbitrarily dictate to ME how I should play anything. If arranger play works well enough, all well and good, if not, I will use whatever makes the music sound it's best. Some songs I use the full arranger - some songs I just use arranger drums and play LH bass, some songs I will use an SMF with just bass and drums, some have more parts. You have to make the machine work FOR the music, not the other way around.....

" Too few even acknowledge the importance that a good bassline makes to the structure of a song, and the nature of direction it can show. Arranger play, with it's short repeated SMFs (that's all a style is, after all), never gets the bassline to indicate a chord change.

In a real bassline, the bass player knows what the next chord is, and shapes his bassline to go towards it, thus giving the changes a sense of structure. In an arranger, the bassline never knows what chord is next (until you actually play it!), so it bassically (!) just sits there, until, whoops! now it is playing another chord. No connection, no shape, no flow.......

For me, it is one of the most glaring differences between a real rhythm section, and arranger play. Now add in the fact that ALL the arranger parts are doing the same thing, to a greater or lesser degree, and you have the REAL difference between arrangers and SMFs. At least, to my ears, it is night and day. So, in a nutshell, you gain the ability to change form and structure with an arranger, at the cost of smooth flow and a sense of coherence. " ....


Just my thought... I find there are many songs that can be covered with styles, however, songs that have distinct "bridges" (musically speaking), can not be covered with a generic style... The crowd, imo reacts differently if they recognize the song immediately, hence the midi file does this the best..... Ketron made "song styles" that had bridges built in to the variation of the style, which was cool to use in real time and have the audience identify the song quickly. So I just pay attention to the crowd//
What's interesting is that Yamaha/Roland /Technics never called their styles "song styles",even though many styles, sound like songs. Yamaha-Korg-Roland have always had "song books / one touch " features giving you suggestion for which style will be musically correct for the song you are looking for. Ketron's song styles can be very handy for real time performance.
Here's an example of ketron's song styles : SONG STYLES 1 - 9SD0S1 - Songs Styles
A WHITER SHADE OF PALE
DON’T BE CRUEL
HOLD ON I’M COMING
JOHNNY B. GOODE
LONG TRAIN RUNNIN’
STAND BY ME
WE HAVE ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD
WHEN A MAN LOVES A WOMAN


When it comes to playing with midi files vs. styles with other musicians- I find that muting parts of midi sequences is the best when jamming with a drummer or guitarist or bassist...

I'll be back.. Dan O


Peace ...

The T2 has a style that sounds like "takin care of business".... but I couldn't or wouldn't use that style more than once ,
for a live performance..

[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 01-28-2007).]

I don't honestly care whether the bass line of a Style is the same as a recorded version or not..... what's important is that it NEVER leads the changes, always follows.

My SMFs (at least the ones I edit, which is most!) don't necessarily use the recorded song version's bassline. I'm not trying to sound exactly like the record. But they DO work as real bass lines, not looped, repeated chunks of bass line!

Next thing to listen to, especially if you don't play with a guitarist, is how smooth the changes sound on the acoustic or rhythm guitar part is. There is altogether too much 'root-root' chord changing, rather than going from one inversion to another, as real guitarists do. It's another arranger dead giveaway.

The more you listen carefully to the differences between real rhythm section and arranger parts, the more you realize which songs will work OK on an arranger, and which cry out for a more dedicated SMF.

The trick still, with both types of playback, is to only use the absolute bare minimum of automatic parts. Play as much yourself as is humanly possible. Your audience will appreciate it.....

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-28-2007).]

It boils down to this...I am not entertaining musicians...my primary audience, when I'm not doing Yamaha demos, are listeners not players.


If it doesn't sound unique enough to some other musician, I could care less...my objective is a happy listener, not pleasing some other entertainer...they don't pay my salary.


The average listener doesn't care if I play left hand bass, or bass pedals, or two fisted chord clusters...they just want to hear something they know...and in my experience it doesn't have to be exact....just don't mess with the melody.

If you get more contentment by playing L.H. bass, and, you get your jiggers with a midi file banging away as you pound the keys over the top, just remember, this is primarily for your own satisfaction....90% of your audience don't really care.

Just don't pretend to play using local off on your keyboard...if you are found out, you're making the rest of us who do play, look very bad.

Ian



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Remember to leave good news alone.

your exactly right Ian,

you can dig for hours about all this technical crap but at the end of the day when it comes to actually playing live, things like that let fly and go un noticed. its not a form of being lazy or unprofessional, i would say your being more professional in a way as you are controlling the arrangement in real time other than playing along with a backing song...

instrument changes, pitch bends, modulation and other realtime controls are still easy to use while in arranger mode, you just need to perfect your timing and skills, and that makes a good musician!

Nick

gotta agree with dan01 and diki..in fact in the way of bass leading or guitar leading, or chord changes per se, the modern styles structure (NOT SOUND) is very similar to an old RA50 i once owned, lots of root based chords, very very cheesy...even if you want to write your own styles you are limited, in a lot of cases, to C in the root position...

If your arranger has FINGERED ON BASS CHORDS or BASS INVERSION, you are not limited in any way.

The RA50 did not have it...it was a very limiting arranger...good in its day, but still short of what you can do with today's instruments.

As far as the bass lead in...not many people in the audience are going to sit there and debate if the bass line leads up to the next chord...they are more concerned with the melody and how the overall song sounds.

Ian

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Remember to leave good news alone.

Excactly ....they see only one person ..
they hear more then one instrument.....
thier ignorance computes in their brain as confused karaokesque what the heck is that guy doing up there but it really sounds good mentality...."Wanna dance honey?"

Absolutely right. No one in over five years of gigging with arrangers has anyone ever come up and said, "Hey, that bassline isn't right." 99.9% don't give a rat's about that. Let's leave that stuff to the nitpickers.

Truth be told, the audience doesn't know, and doesn't care if you use styles or SMFs. And precious few musicians do, either. Most of them don't care how you replace them, just the fact that you do.....!

There are probably as many solo entertainers (OMBs) using SMFs as there are using arrangers (possibly more, if the truth be known). This IS an arranger forum, so you are probably going to hear from them the most, but don't let yourself be fooled, if this was an SMF forum, you would come away with the impression that SMFs were the way to go, and arrangers were another, but flawed, way to perform.

Truth is, if you are entertaining, if you are solidly booked, if you get plenty of repeat business, it doesn't matter one jot which system you use.... NO-ONE CARES!

Only somewhere like here, where devotees of one particular way to make music gather, are you ever likely to find anyone that gives a damn. But both systems have their strengths and weaknesses. Finding which works best for each particular song is the real skill, and not getting too invested in one form of music-making or another will free you up a lot more than deciding 'it's arranger play or nothing!'

For me, the true weakness of arranger play is having to give up your left hand. Many of you may feel that's no great loss, but as someone who has spent a lifetime learning how to play with essentially two right hands (I can make my left hand into a pretty good organist, while my right hand is the strings or horn section or soloist, etc., etc.), having to compromise what 50% of me plays to just input the damn chords is a great loss. Others may feel challenged just to play the right chords at the right time, and not understand how much you have to give up to control an arranger, but many here, I am sure, do.....

NickG if you think you can input chords and STILL use a bender effectively, try this..... Play a solo while you are using the arranger, a nice sax sound will do. Record it into your arranger's sequencer. Now have a listen. OK, now mute the solo track, and play another solo over the top of the accompaniment, and record THAT (on another track if you can). Now listen to both solos one after the other. Listen to how many times you use the bender when you would have been using your left hand to play a chord in the second version. I guarantee it is a LOT. Most instruments that bend and scoop a lot almost inevitably do it at chord boundaries (amongst other times!), EXACTLY the time you would NOT be able to do it in arranger play.

There are a myriad tricks and licks that cannot be played with one hand, from fancy piano arpeggios, to syncopated funky clavinet licks, to banjo-esque cross fingering licks, and so on. Arbitrarily deciding that you will no longer play these techniques because of your slavish devotion to inputting simple chords with your left hand is myopic. If there is a way to still be able to do these entertaining and musical feats, by all means use whatever exists to further them.....

I honestly think that, from reading a few of the previous replies, that some of you have ZERO respect for your audiences. If they honestly didn't care whether you 'entertain' them with an arranger, or with a full band, there would be NO full bands. The truth is, they DO care, and they CAN tell the difference. They may not be able to articulate WHY they prefer a full rhythm section to an arranger - no-one is EVER going to come up and say 'I LOVED the voice leading on your bass lines', but if you replaced your arranger bass lines with a real bass player, or used an SMF with a true line, they will enjoy it more.

If they really don't care, why NOT 'local off' your brains out..... Oh yeah, that's right - then the only thing they might care about is how well you SING, something that might make many of even the pros here nervous! So you'd better pray they DO care, or the singers will take over everything and the only guy making any money will be the SMF developers.

Despite this being an arranger forum, I hope that most people's goal is to 'make music', NOT 'play an arranger'....

Diki...

Playing solo requires compromise...I'm willing to live with that...no problem.

Having a "live" bass player defeats my purpose of going solo, and will not make the audience enjoy anything any more than the auto bass...perhaps you might notice the difference, but the average listener doesn't listen for details like you feel they would.

Having fewer pitch bends while playing is not really a problem...having NONE would be...I'm very happy with the small compromise I make because I choose to play chords.

Giving up my left hand was a plus, as far as I am concerned...I played left hand bass and bass pedals for many years, but now I prefer to let the instrument do the work....you may miss it....I certainly don't, any more than I miss shifting gears in my car.

If I played Left Hand Bass it would require 76 notes,and, another thing I don't want...a bigger, heavier keyboard to lug around...

BTW..it's much easier to "work the wheel" while playing arranger chords than while playing L.H. Bass.

The bottom line for me is personal satisfaction while playing...I have found my way and it works for me...your way would not work for me, and, there's no way I can be convinced it would, anymore than the chance I would have convincing you of my way.

I've accepted the few compromises I've had to make to remain a solo arranger player, you sound like you might be still stuck between two schools.

Once I made the decision to use the method I do, there was no more pressure to be both a band player and a solo arranger player....

Life is good, my friend, and I am grateful to be still in the game, and enjoying music on my own terms...and why not, I paid my dues.


Ian



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Remember to leave good news alone.

Im not even going to bother getting into another Cat fight with you, all i know is, i play alot of dance music and use the pitch bend wheel a hell of a lot and i always use arranger mode.

when u hit a sustained chord with your left hand and a note with your right hand, there is enough time to move your left hand over to the pitch bend wheel and modulate the voice that your right finger is still holding down...

if YOU cant do it, that doesnt mean others cant...

I can hit and work the bender every bit as good as you can..... but I can work it MORE if I don't have to play chords. That's all I'm saying. I'm not talking about synth sounds, but sax, and lead guitar, pedal steel etc., that bend and scoop almost every note in one way or another.

Sure, you can get close, but you CAN get closer......

Thanks guys for the comments.

I just have to say I absolutely love style playing (of course, organ trained, I'm destined for chord use).

I tend to agree with Nick, there are many things you can do on the fly with arrangers, while executing showmanship.

I will probably do 95% styles and struggle through the 5% SMF that might be necessary.

Happy playing all,

zuki