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#156410 - 07/20/05 11:33 PM Arranging Keyboards vs Software (opinions for tv spots/commercials)
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've played with Band In A Box and a friends Jammer 5, which seem to be ok, as well, I owned a Korg Karma and what was it, Yamaha RS9000? (Cannot remember, sold them both though).

Arranging keyboards offer real-time changes as you play and was looking for feedback (or reviews) on how well the arrangements compare to say Band in a box (seems all to be jazz though), Jammer, Oynx (hasn't been updated in a long time) to HARWARE keyboards.

The problem is though on the HIGHER end keyboards, your paying for the sounds, yet I would be routing the sounds out and into a sequencer then to high end samples, (Gigastudio/EWQLSO, etc) so the onboard sounds are moot, unless just for inspiration, which to some extent could be important in and of itself.

But here is the questions, if using a software arranger, it's not really inspirational as you can't really PLAY the song in real-time at all, so this leads me to the following:

Does anyone here own any of the ROLAND EX (or G series) arrangers or the Korg PA59/80 to PZXPro keyboards? If so does one offer better arranging than another? For example, why would I pay $3500.00 for a PXpro if I never intent to utilize the songs and its the patterens and arrangements that I am after. Would a PA50 do the trick? I noticed though that the PA series offer no USB for direct PC use.

Also, how do they fair compared to software versions ala band in a box, or better yet, how do the lower end PA KORG series work in terms of arranging,

With that said, not to mention the COST associated with such a hardware device (especially if I send to sequencer and re-trigger), is as though I am "SEEKING" a keyboard arranger that will inspire, have quite a few bells and whistles, will OUTPUT exceptional midi code (for sequencer and trigger higher end samples) and want to know if anything, what others have tried and felt worth while.

The (KORG) PAXpro series is $3500, I am sure it isn't worth that much to me only because I will never use the onboard sounds but only for ideas....so it's as if I am looking for a device like that (with many patterns, perhaps limited sounds (to cut down on cost) but GREAT arranging capabilities.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks...
PS. I have knowledge of arranging/music theory, but of late, my ideas have ranged from
Cinematic scores and pop songs to techno drama. In a nutshell, good arranging keyboard, changes and inspires as you play, outputs well (midi data to separate tracks), easy to use, and possibly easy to input into Finale or Sibelius if need be.

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#156411 - 07/21/05 01:22 AM Re: Arranging Keyboards vs Software (opinions for tv spots/commercials)
The Insider Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 80
Loc: Buckinghamshire,England
Hi Music Superviser

I work in what appear to be similar cicumstances to you and in my opinion the use of arrangers in this type of compositional work tends to be for unusual sounds that are not covered by other units, or quick-fix solutiuons for sounds that require intensive amounts of detailed programming - as a compositional tool, unless you are ghosting a tune in a generic style (which is of course the point of the arranger) it is never going to replace the flexibilty of the specific tailored library, such as gigastudio, VSL etc in my opinion.

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#156412 - 07/21/05 06:00 PM Re: Arranging Keyboards vs Software (opinions for tv spots/commercials)
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 5880
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi,
maybe One Man Band may be of interest to you http://www.1manband.nl/
Uses .sty files ( the same format as Yamaha PSR Keyboards).
You use your own soundsource, you can create your own styles ( or use psr styles).

Play in realtime or put together an arrangement via a similar method to BIAB & Jammer. Save arrangement as midifile, load into a sequencer for additional tracks or editing.

Don't be put off by the styles in the demo version as you can create your own. Works a bit like a pattern based sequencer except you can play them in realtime and it follows your chords.

The majority of styles in most arranger keyboards are Rock/Pop/Ballad/R&B Modern Dance, Jazz/Bigband,Latin, Waltzes, Marches etc not a great deal in the way of classical, movie music styles.
Actually there is a program called Jammer Live which can be played in realtime unlike Jammer 5. Still stuck with a limited number of styles unless you're willing to create your own. It can use Jammer 5 styles but not in their entirety.
best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by musicsupervisor:
[

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 07-21-2005).]
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

SX900, P121 Piano, Band in a Box 2020
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

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#156413 - 07/21/05 07:23 PM Re: Arranging Keyboards vs Software (opinions for tv spots/commercials)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks,

Well you would think that the software out there (Band, Jammer, Band In A Box) would have been picked up and updated with some major financial support (Cakewalk, Steinberg (Yamaha), Apple (soon to be x86) and these platforms would be more modern, but alas, they are not, they still seem to be in the pre-windows era or rather early DOS, win 3.1 GUI's.

That said, I'm wondering what the major differences are between the Korg PA50 and EX series, plus there is a newer GW7 (not the G-70_, but never seem to find them in the Los Angeles area......

What, if any, are the major differences? I can tell you in my opinion, I like the sounds of the PA series, however (and this could be the main issue for me) is the "lack" of USB for transffering files (midi) from hardware to PC - - amd also interested in knowing of the two, do they both export midi tracks as individual files, including drums?

Thanks again.

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#156414 - 07/22/05 10:49 AM Re: Arranging Keyboards vs Software (opinions for tv spots/commercials)
jamman Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/04
Posts: 642
Loc: City of Angels in the golden s...
Quote:
Originally posted by musicsupervisor:
Thanks,


That said, I'm wondering what the major differences are between the Korg PA50 and EX series, plus there is a newer GW7 (not the G-70_, but never seem to find them in the Los Angeles area......

What, if any, are the major differences? I can tell you in my opinion, I like the sounds of the PA series, however (and this could be the main issue for me) is the "lack" of USB for transffering files (midi) from hardware to PC - - amd also interested in knowing of the two, do they both export midi tracks as individual files, including drums?

Thanks again.


they both export MID files including drums,yes.you can load midi drum loops and use seq to lay you new songs-yes.


sam ash has(hollywood)-pa50,roland exrs,GW 7,guitar center has pa1x pro.george kaye (kaye's music -in Reseda,los angeles)has all and more arrangers than any other shop in So.cal I think.


PA50 soundwise (same triton samples)is 80-90 % pa1x.BUT
you don't get the sampling,MP3,song book,HD,USB and so on.

forget roland EXRs unless you want to spend less than 500$9exr 3).

for the price
at 1500$ - get psr 3k
at 1000$- get pa 50
under 1000$- don't get anything,save your money or go USED route.psr 2100 will be the choice.

this is my repost 3k vs pa 80(but pa 50 is 95 % of pa 80 with some exceptions-more powerful speakers,sampling,VH,Hd,keys,after touch,weight,made in China vs Italy, but the sounds,the styles,seq and style creater etc are identical).


3k pros,pa 80 cons
------------------
interaction between seq/smf play and arranger
(ie-in 3k-you can use internal drum styles on SMFs in realtime-meaning your rock smf can have a latin/pop/jazz rhythm instantly)

4 fills and which are very natural(PA has 2 and very erratic/unnatural sounding)
3 intro/3 ending

SM slot and USB to device(can use your 128/512mb sticks and never worry about disk swapping)can also load styles from it

real time 3 part Vocal harmony(with compressor,EQ and reverb)-which can be in saved per style basis

realtime pads-you can record licks,pharses,loops and synchronize with arranger-the function in workstations- like RPS like function of Roland(in Pa80 you can only have individual sounds-kick and snare,sfx etc)(pa1x-pro -new OS is changing-can do loops like yam(I heard)so PA 80 may change that later or not?)

128 poly(62 in PA) 64 MB of wave ROM(pa has 32)

great 3rd party style support

better display,more simu efx

lighter

more realistic sax,piano,acoustic guitar sounds(mega voices made up for it)
esp-ac guitar sounds like someone is strumming right near you
(useless and basic harmony input and rather expensive HD(150$ for HD kit without HD) and 8mb sampling(basic) option in PA 80)

2004 technology (3k) and 2001 technology(pa 80)

rootless chord recognition(scott yee will explain)

styles are more open and non recognizable easily(where in PA some 16 beats-repeats-licks can become obvious)


and now Pa 80's pros and 3k's cons
-----------------------------------

cheap looking and toy like hardware for a 1500$ KB in 3k( pa is more well build)

better and louder speakers in PA

better sound editing in PA

better seq functions in PA

better synth and drum sounds(triton board)and loads triton programs


solid state disk OS(means they can upgrade)
20mb(3k has 1.5 or so but USB and SM slot made up for it)

256 preset + 48 user styles(can reconfigure all-like volume,sounds etc)(how ever 3k's music finder is more flexible)

aftertouch and1 realtime slider(you can assign it to cutoff or efx parameter)

mid east/ethnic sounds and styles(and support)-if you play middle eastern music -3k can't offer much(no Ne' or Uds-PA has it and does sound good)-but if you play more western music - 3k's 3rd party support will make you smile

-------------------------------------
so if you are a studio'band musician,do ONLY occational arranger work-choose PA-80

but if you are a arranger gigger,who use alot of styles and who sings-3k

the thing is 3k does what it's suppose to do with flying colors(realtime arranger keyboard)

PA however is in between(not a good arranger,not a good workstation either)

remember you can always add a used workstation(trinity,triton le,roland xp series and fantom S series(which have samping-expect for roland XPs) for less than 900$-which will outperform PA(as a workstation)


if you like PA 80's sounds/styles-go for PA 50-999$ and made in China(a lot cheaper in Europe)-same as PA80(except for aftertouch,expensiveHD,sampling.VH and less speaker wattage)


3k is the new king for this time in arranger world(for price and functions)also best selling-

remember PA came out with 2k and 2k was still more popular(also better priced)

most of arranger giggers have moved from pa-80 to 3k for versatiliy for solo arranger work.they'll also explain why.

it's like-" My ears prefer Korg but my job demands Yamaha".

--------------------------------------
for your additional questions about EXRs Vs PA read my posts below.

http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/009086.html
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/009293.html http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/009265.html http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HT...TML/009086.html


---------------------------------------------

nothing beats an arranger in easy song creation and playing solo.



[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 07-22-2005).]

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