Seek Keyboard Playing Techniques for Emulating Acoustic Instruments - Synth Zone BBS


Author Topic: Seek Keyboard Playing Techniques for Emulating Acoustic
Instruments
Scottyee
Member posted 06-11-2001 11:46 PM

I certainly (like most everyone else here) want to own an arranger
keyboard with the BEST (most realistic) sounds available, but I also
realize that time must be spent to learn and master synth keyboard playing
techniques used to best emulate the unique qualities of each of the many
acoustic instrument sounds featured on our arranger keyboards (phrasing,
instrument note range, intonation, aftertouch & vibrato, pitch bending,
etc).
No matter how impressive a KB sound patch is, the resulting keyboard
performance (featuring that instrument) will still lack its' full
realistic sound potential unless appropriate synth keyboard playing
techniques are mastered.
I'd like to get advice/tips on synth keyboard playing techniques used to
emulate different acoustic instruments: horn (sax, trumpet, flute, reeds:
aftertouch, vibrato, phrasing, etc), strings (violin, cello, bass, guitar:
bowing vibrato, etc) and Country Pedal Steel Guitar (pitch bending).
Thanks in advance for all input. - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 06-12-2001).]
Clif Anderson
Member posted 06-12-2001 03:58 AM

Hi Scott
It will be interesting to hear what people are doing to emulate acoustic
instruments. The subject is complicated by the fact that what you do
depends on the sample and the programming. It seems to me that arranger
keyboards are more likely to use samples with instrument-specific
characteristics. For example, arranger samples are more likely to have
vibrato in the sample. The samples sound nice, but you cannot control the
vibrato. Other samples lack vibrato, but it can be added via
aftertouch--but still there is little control. The same issues arise with
pitch variations in the attack of a sound. An arranger is more likely to
build the pitch variations into the sample.
Obvioiusly, your playing technique to emulate an acoustic instrument is
going to depend on what "effects" are already in the sample.
If the effects are built into the sample, it is difficult to control them
as you would on an acoustic instrument. It would be more realistic (if
more challenging) to leave them out of the sample and add them using
controllers. You might recall there is a program from Ntonyx that adds
controller information to SMFs to make the instruments sound more
realistic.
The Karma (you knew this was coming) can add Ntonyx-like controller
information in real time. Stephen Kay, the inventor of the Karma, has
programmed demos for Alesis and Korg; he knows a lot about how to make a
synth sound "real". The original purpose of the Karma was to emulate
certain acoustic instruments that even "excellent" keyboard players
struggled with. Specifically, Kay was concerned with emulating harp
glissandos and guitar strums. However, in principle can supply the
controller information to help emulate any acoustic instrument. However,
in the Karma's case, the acoustic effects are under the player's control
rather than built into a sample where they are pretty much beyond control.
So going back to your question, it would be helpful to know what effects
are built into the sample when people are described their playing
techniques.
Dreamer
Member posted 06-12-2001 05:13 AM

Hi Scott,
you brought up a very interesting topic. First of all, I have to say that
today's arrangers have greatly improved sounds/samples, which are indeed a
very good starting point. As you know, I have recently bought a Roland VA7
and have found, much to my pleasure, that most of its internal samples are
taken from the JV/XV series: this means that you have at your disposal
acoustic guitar with or without slide or fret noises or saxes with or
without breath noise and so on. Many top arrangers allow you to modify
their sounds, adding vibrato, adjusting filters or modifying envelopes.
Aside from that, there is be a human factor, which can be summarized as
follows: to play in a realistic way a given instrument, you have to think
that you are actually playing that instrument and not your keyboard. So,
if you want to sound convincing playing a guitar o sax solo, you must
forget that you are a piano/keyboard player and become a guitar or a sax
player. Of course, having actually played that instrument greatly helps;
otherwise, it's useful to listen to records where these intruments are
featured and try to analyze how they are phrased/played.
Tom Cavanaugh
Member posted 06-12-2001 06:13 AM

Scott and the group,
You are absolutely correct. To make the selected instrument sound
authentic you must think like a sax player or trumpet or whatever. I find
that vary hard to do. It takes a lot of listening and practice to pick up
on the instruments style. I'm still working on it.
Back in the dark ages when I used to sell organs I also found out that
when you want the clarinet stop on the organ to sound like a clarinet, you
play the clarinet polka for the demo. The Lowrey people always played
aloha oh when demonstrating the steel guitar.
It even invades the keyboard world. Have you ever heard an organ player
that sounds like they are playing a piano, I have. I was trained on the
organ and not the piano so I'm sure I have some of the opposite problem.
Just remember we must always be working on our skills. If this were an
easy business then everybody would be doing it.
Tom
I think Don and Uncle Dave are the only two old enough to remember what a
record is. I once heard a teeny bopper remark, "Didn't Paul McCartney play
in another group before Wings?"
Bluezplayer
Member posted 06-12-2001 06:23 AM

It's always been about using the keys to emulate different instruments for
me Scott. I learned traditional organ and ( later )piano skills early on
but I've always paid a lot more attention to players like Keith Emerson
and Jan Hammer who used a different approach and in my mind used the synth
and organ as a more of a lead instrument. A lot of this is in the
fingering technique for me and the way my fingers hit the keys when I
attempt to emulate a guitar for instance. Andrea is thinking the same as
me on this. I try to visualize the motion and feel I have when plucking a
string. It isn't quite the same obviously, but using that approach helps
me. I can't really verbalize exactly what I mean Scott, but my approach is
very different than when I'm trying to play a traditional piano piece. The
traditional hand and finger attack used when playing a piano doesn't work
when I want to emulate Stevie Ray Vaughan playing lead guitar. In this
respect the heavily weighted keys that I see a lot of people talk about
don't work well for me either. Yes I like that true piano feel when I want
to play a piano or electric piano, but when I want to emulate a sax a lot
of it is very velocity dependent and I need to have a lighter feel to the
keys, so give me that cheapy plastic feel anytime ..lol. The way I set up
and use damper and effects pedals comes in to play as well. Gotta have the
right sustain and feel when doing a strummed 12 string guitar, so my foot
becomes an active player.
The other part of the board that really is important to me is the
joystick. I can finally put my M1 into semi retirement now that I have the
PA80. Pitch wheels are cool but my left hand needs a joystick because
while controlling pitch and bends is very important on guitar pieces, the
other parameters I can program into a joystick for a particular instrument
are very important as well. I understand where Cliff is coming from with
the Karma, but I need even more control than what I was able to get when
demoing Karma if I want to do the entire piece myself. ( I still want
Karma badly though ..VERY cool board and a lot of different parameters to
work with ). When playing any type of solo or melody instrument ( Sax,
lead guitar etc... ) my left hand is often glued to the joystick Scott. I
guarantee it is the first part of this keyboard that will wear out. The
only part of my 740 that has gone bad in 2 years is the pitch wheel and
the joystick on my M1 has also been replaced.
AJ
Uncle Dave
Member posted 06-12-2001 06:37 AM

I agree with AJ - the pitchbender is the #1 tool to help emulate solo
instruments, especially guitar & sax. Another thing that will help is to
voice chords like the original instrument does. eg: guitar - get a chord
book, and see how the chords are voiced. When playing trumpet solo's -
NEVER hit a chord, or glisando down the white keys. That can't happen on a
horn. A black key gliss is more relistic, but still a stretch. This is a
great topic, and one that really separates the men from the boys (sorry,
ladies) in the synth world.
Range is another important issue - besides what the instrument is normally
play in, remember that most keyboard samples have an "ideal range" of play
for each sample. Nothing sounds the same octave after octave. There are
too many factors.
Best words of advice: LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN.
The only way to play like a " * " is to imitate the phrasing and "color"
of that instrument.
Good thoughts Scott.
Fran Carango
Member posted 06-12-2001 06:38 AM

The first time that I was impressed by a keyboard player that sound like
the real thing, was when I heard Eric Persing use a breath controller and
sax samples[Eric was with Roland,during this time, late 80's]..Another
example of playing correctly, a friend Tim Zerone, plays like a guitar
player with the right voicing and technique, Tim is a guitar player as
well as a keyboard player..You should hear him play drums on a keyboard..
Tom I started out as a organ salesman, I worked for a Hammond organ
dealer..Back then, we took our show on the road, exsposure demos at
supermarkets and free at home demostrations. I don't think anyone in organ
sales works that hard anymore..Fran
DonM
Member posted 06-12-2001 08:20 AM

Seems as if a lot of us sold organs or keyboards at one time. I'm looking
forward to trying to master the joystick on the PA80. For 20 years I've
used the wheels, and it is second nature now. I don't even think about
what I'm doing with them.
The most important things have already been brought up--playing within the
parameters of the instrument--no chords on single note instruments, don't
exceed the range of the instrument. One thing that I still have to pay
careful attention to is, breathing. A szx or horn player MUST quit blowing
to breath. If you play too many notes in sucession your "virtual" sax man
will explode and die.
It would be great if someone made an arranger with INDEPENDENT key
control. Then you could bend one note out of a chord, as a pedal steel
guitar can do. Or a lead trumpet with a couple of other horns playing
harmony. Some synths can do this, and believe it or not Yamaha once made a
mini-size keyboard that would do it.
I must agree that the lighter key action makes it much easier, for me at
least, to emulate instruments. But then I never played piano, always organ
or keyboard. Before that trumpet. (Yes Tom, they made trumpets when I was
a boy. Used to carry it in my saddlebags, along with extra food for my
horse.)
DonM
Scottyee
Member posted 06-12-2001 08:32 AM

Coming from a long background as a traditional 88 note acoustic piano
player, I concur with DonM that when playing (emulating) OTHER instruments
on a synth board, that playing unweighted lighter keys seems a lot easier.
etc. - Scott
Nobby
Member posted 06-12-2001 09:13 AM

Scott,
This is very short I have to leave . But I'd like to hear things like
Simon Williams posted. For guitar pull your pitch bend back before you
strike the note, then release the
pitch bend to slide into the note. I am sure there are many tips in this
group of musicians that could help eminencly. (Forgive my spelling)
Have fun,
Nobby
PS. Has anyone to play Yakety Sax on your keyboard and made it sound like
the real thing?
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[This message has been edited by Nobby (edited 06-12-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Nobby (edited 06-12-2001).]
sk880user
Member posted 06-12-2001 09:29 AM

Hello everybody,
very interesting topic. Let us get to the specifics..
How do you use the pitch bend to emulate real sax for example?
Let us discuss specific examples.
Nobby
Member posted 06-12-2001 11:30 AM

Scott,
This is a great post, very interesting. I play a lot of guitar on the
keyboard. Some times it sounds pretty close. Other times I have problems.
I've played a guitar for years for dances, but just played rythm and sang.
Keyboards started about 5 years ago.
But since I retired I play my KB. most of the time. Because I play alone.
I still play the guitar some.
Tom I'm 64yrs. think that would qualify me old enough to know what a
record is?
I agree with Uncle Dave I was playing A trumpet out in public A man came
up and said your doing that all wrong. I said oh why? He said I've played
a trumpet all my life, I've never been able to reach notes as high as your
getting. So check out your range! Someone's listning.
Now on Guitar You can get to high of range,but for a standard guitar the
worst range to mantain is the low range. It so easy to get below the range
of a guitar and into midrange of a bass guitar. I'm sure everybody does a
lot of octive shifting.
I hardly ever use auto starts. I play live and like to play my opening in
to a song.
Auto Openings & endings can get old fast!
My 2cents worth!
Regards
Nobby
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Dreamer
Member posted 06-12-2001 11:47 AM

Well, to be more specific, I was a guitar player before becoming a
keyboard player, and even today I tend to solo more like a guitarist than
a keyboardist.
The first step is a good guitar sample; then, to emulate the way a
guitarist uses the pitch bend lever I route aftertouch to pitch: when I
depress a key the tone goes down to a semitone or a whole tone. This
sounds best on keyboards which have polyphonic aftertouch, otherwise the
tone depression will affect other notes too. I never use the modulation
wheel because I have to take chords with my left hand and the aftertouch
modulation is more subtle. It's good if you have a velocity responsive
sample, to emulate the way a guitarist hits his chords and gets different
sounds.
Speaking of saxophones, I route the velocity to shorten the attack time:
here too having a velocity responsive sample helps a lot (more breath at
low velocities and less at high velocities). On woodwinds (and on steel
guitar too) is useful the so called monophonic portamento or glissando:
remember Keith Emerson's solo on "Lucky Man"? He was using a Minimoog with
monophonic portamento: in this way, hitting a second note without
releasing the first one the sound shifts in pitch from the first to the
second in a beautiful way: this technique is very useful to emulate a
trombone player (glissando).
The big problem is that all these features are rarely implemented on
arrangers, but they are indeed present in synthesizers or samplers. Yamaha
synths used to be really good at emulating woodwinds and of course the use
of a breath controller greatly helps.
There are so many things to mention: UD hinted to the way a guitar player
takes a chord: they are usually open chords (to get the same effect on a
keyboard you have to use both hands) and the third is rarely used (it's
more common to have it shifted an octave up as a tenth: so a C chord is
phrased more like C G C E than C E G C).
More to come (I hope).