Just found some new T2 demos added at http://www.yamaha-tyros.com/tyros2preview.php

And the sax sound incredibble !!

Cant wait to put my hands on it !

Arno,

Glad to finally find these excellent demos posted on the web by Yamaha. Thanks to UK artist Andy S. for his fine 'live playing' performance skills, especially on the impressive solo sax & guitar demos. Btw, the impressively realistic 'breath effect' on 'S.Art Sax Saxophone' & 'guitar noise' on 'S.Art Guitar' are triggered "live" as well: via assgignable foot controller, of which is a KEY feature of "Super Articulation' voice playing. In addition, playing "Super Articulation' voices normally on the kb, automatically delivers expressive finger slides to guitar sounds, breathy legato phrasing to saxophone sounds, or a range of bowing effects to string instruments. Tyros2 utilizes complex algorithms to determine which sample (there are multiple sound samples per each note) is played, and determined by the velocity (how hard you hit the note), playing speed, and the interval distance between the notes. This imo is a very exciting keyboard advancement adding even greater realism to acoustic instrument emulation. Another PLUS with Tyros2 is that MusicFinder is no longer limited to only accessing USER Memory Styles. I also appreciate the addition of recording audio, yet it's limited to only 2 audio tracks. - Scott

I have shockwave, but can't get it. Any suggestions?

zuki,
try turning off yor cookie and/or ad control with your AV programme. Worked for me.

------------------
Roy-Andrè

hmmmm, I find that, except guitars, the new Tyros II is not very good at emulating real instruments.
I was totally disappointed by the strings and the trumpet.
The so called "S. Art Saxophone" (maybe State of the Art Saxophone?) soungs good, but I hate the imitation of a player taking a breath, because it sound absolutely identical everytime i hear it. It will be good if one can adjust the breathing effect.
Nevertheless, Tyros II seems to be a great keyboard.
Regards,
George

I agree with George. That breath was driving me nuts as well.

The idea is good, but it is either a complete waiste as a feature or was simply demo'ed poorly.

Very distracting and uneffective.

I'm blown away by the sound of the new Tyros 2. The Orchestral demo piece was quite moving and I could not distingish between the real thing and an arranger organ!

There seems to be much more brightness and tonal range to the new Tyros 2. That latin demo with those Trumpets are awesomely realistic.

The organs seem much more animated with a more "churly" kind of effect to them. I don't really know if that's a good thing or not, just different.

This keyboard will go unused for many players because it does not have 76 keys. What a waste of great technology.

George and acoustictones are right.. the breath sound is bothering.. Yamaha has to rebuild it or something, it sound the same every singel time.

You heard the Oriental Pop? That was really good one! I wish Yamaha will make more styles like this, and not only for oriental keyboards (like A1000).

[This message has been edited by bomba6 (edited 09-18-2005).]

Sad but true. I do hope Yamaha relents and does make a 76 key version somewhere down the road. And in my opinion the sooner the better for those of us wanting 76 keys. If they wait too long to do it the hype will have long since faded and another Manufacturer will have stepped up to the plate and most likely offer something even spicier with more features and more realistic sounds AND 76 keys. As we know Roland and Korg aren't afraid to offer 76 Keys in their high end Arrangers evidenced by the Korg Pa1XPRO and the Roland G70.

What I'm hoping is that if Yamaha does indeed offer a 76 key Tyros2 they will make it light enough so as not to restrict sales from people who won't buy a heavy keyboard no matter how good it sounds.

It shouldn't be too hard in my opinion seeing Roland has the Fantom X7 (76 keys) that weighs in at 32 lbs. Granted it's no Arranger but what's the diff? Styles and Multipads can't weigh that much right? And Sample RAM can't either for that matter.

Eventually the technology (which is basically here btw) will make it possible to make 76 Key or even 88 Key keyboards much lighter than they are now. And they will actually be stronger and more durable than the composites that are currently being used.

Don't laugh but eventually 88 Key keyboards will be made that weigh in the neighborhood of 25 to 45 lbs - with fully weighted keys! And you can imagine what their 76 Key counterparts will weigh in at. And we're talking full blown high end Workstations and Arrangers not Wal-Mart specials.

Then maybe we can even get Scott Langholff to consider getting something other than 61 keys.

Best regards,
Mike

PS: I really liked the Sax in that new super articulation demo. It is the best sounding Sax I've heard on a keyboard. The breathing thingy is a neat little added feature, which, if not overused, could add demension to a song. I do agree that Yamaha should make it possible to vary the breath sound.

This breath is not part of the sound. It´s controlled wiht SA pedal. It´s completely controllable. I will sure buy this new Tyros. Very massive drums and bass. We ain't seen nothing yet. I think we will be blown away with this new instrument.

Bomba, as with all 'added effects', utilizing them to much or to often isn't recommended. Used subtley & sparingly though, it provides an added spark of realism. REMEMBER, this was a DEMO (afterall) intended to SHOWCASE the new "Super Articulation" voice's footpedal activated 'breath efx' feature. In a normal performance situation/recording, I might perhaps add the breath sound less often.

Considering this is a keyboard's emulation of, and not the actual acoustic instrument: sax/guitar/trumpet) being played, these are very impressive sounding emulations. I commend the sound Yamaha programmers on these demos.

Scott

I just listened to the demos; they are excellent, in fact. However, for most of us that play 'live' (by that I mean using 'styles'), what really should matter, IMO, is how 'usable' is all this technology. In other words, how easily a musical/skillful & persistent player (willing to work) will be able to incorporate this technology in his shows. If we do not ask (and find some kind of answer) ourselves these questions, we risk just being inconsequently seduced by shining demos, without ever beeing able to attain results that come close to the demos and to apply this new tecnology in our playing.

My impression is that these demos are all sequences created non-live in the studio, and with midi 'real' instruments. For instance, which one of you guys would be able to play in your keyboards something close to the guitar ending of the 'Pop und Rock' song demo?

-- José.

Hi José, both the S.A Guitar & S.A Saxophone demos were played live on a 'KEYBOARD', and NOT via a 'real acoustic instrument' midi controller.



I believe the guitar ending on the 'Pop and Rock' song demo showcases the playback of one of the style's three presequenced "ENDINGS".

Scott

Hi Scott.

Thanks for your reply. I do believe it's possible to achieve an expressivity like those super articulation demos with a polished enough technique in a keyboard. But many song demos do remain presequenced progressions at least partially put together with the help of midi instruments, don't they?

-- José.

Holy Mary! That is the BEST sax I have ever heard on a keyboard. How in the world did they put the sound of the player (inhaling) before playing the next note? The Tyros 2 is going to be one mean ass sounding arranger. I must have listened to that sax demo 20 times.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 09-20-2005).]

Some hot details :
T2 has a built in sample player so even Akai samples can be used.

1200 (!) Mega voices

300 MB Wave Memory

1 Gigabite Wave Ram

Harddisk (optional) 200 Gigabite !!!

The demo´s ... I created an audiotrack containing all seperate demo pieces and can´t stop listening ....

[This message has been edited by Roel (edited 09-20-2005).]

Dear Roel;

I am a little confused. I thought their were going to be 40 playable mega voices, yet you state 1200. Are not all the mega voices playable, and are these differnt then the Super Art. Voices?

Also, is it a read only sampler or is it recordable as well? Do you know which sample formats it will accept? Can one expand the 1 Gb memory?

Thanks
Regards;
BlkNotes

Blknotes,
The details come from one of the dealers...(not mine!) and he's probably wrong ?

I just picked the new items from his message and do not know further (deeper) details...
sorry for that.

I'll reserve judgement after I play one......


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-20-2005).]

You sold me. I just placed my order with Dan O'neil at Music City in Baltimore, Maryland. I was the first to order so I am on the top of his list to be shipped.
If you want a great deal and want to be treated like a great customer give Dan a call or email him. He is right on top of everything all the time. A nicer guy I never met.
Thanks to all that posted here and helped make up my mind and thanks to Dan for another good deal. Yes, I am a repeat customer.
Bebop

WOW! The demos are incredible. I would have to mortgage the house again to get it though. What an awesome machine!

-Linda

Roel, 1200 may be the number of different samples used for Megavoices.

Each different megavoice has several samples assgned to it even on the existing tyros. some of these are tuned (different for each note) and some are not (slide, buzz, scrape noises etc). The sample that sounds normally depends on the midi velocity at the time although other cc values can be used.

Viewed like this then 1200 sounds (samples) may not be as many as you first think.

Keith


[This message has been edited by KFingers (edited 09-21-2005).]

Attention!
More demoes added!

I went and listened to the demos again (including the few new ones). I am happy that that (inhale) on the sax is controlable. I didn't judge it harshly on the demo because Yamaha's just showing you that effect is there if you want to use it.

One thing though. I listened to the styles and other demos again. I have to say that one of my dislikes about Yamaha styles is their over use of the ride cymbals and tamborine. These are also a few samples I think Yammie could clean up a bit. Yamaha's styles are a dead giveaway when it comes to those ride cymbals and tamborines. It seems very (hootie and the blowfish) meaning the styles (in regards to drums) just start to sound the same over and over again because of how Yammie programs these particular percussion instruments. Again, just my opinion. Sound wise though, I think the T2 sounds great. I am upset to see the limitation with hard disk recording though.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 09-21-2005).]

Squeak,
when you listen to it 20 times over, it is gonna start sounding the same...
Joke aside, I also find many of their styles overly arranged and repetitive, that's why I hope this time there will be more bars to the variation and more air in them. I know you can turn instruments off, but this becomes awkward. Just like when playing in a band, the key is to learn when not to play, and some of Yamaha's style creators should also obide by this rule.
That aside, I still find Yamaha has great styles compared to the competitors. I am really excited what Ty2 will bring.

I only listened to the sax demo 20 times Hey, I can't say anything bad about that sax. Best I've heard to date.

I agree with you completely too. Yamaha's programers need to learn "when not to play" as well. It just gets too busy at times.

Squeak

Now we're talkin'! I like the new power kit. Though I didn't like that the actual demo of the powerkit is only three seconds...

I too thought the power kit was pretty good, and yest way too short on the demo for that one as well. I did'nt care for the T2 version of "Frankly Soul". The voices on the T2 version seem to have too much reverb, and not as polished as the one before it.

Squeak

I actually like the unpolished sound of the new drums better (if we both have the same def of 'polish') The problem with Yamaha's sounds and styles as far as I'm concerned is that they are 'CD quality' instead of 'Live quality.'

As a live musician, I want my instruments to sound a little 'thick and dirty' - in a good way.

Chony

I know what you mean chony. Sometimes CD quality sounds TOO real I guess. Nothing beats that warm analog sound That's why so many people haven't completely dumped their 4 track tape deck recorders yet

Squeak

Chony and others, I completely agree. I have a Tyros myself and the thing with it is that while it does have some great sounds, it also contains a few key element sounds like drums and bass that due to the pseudo stereo phase characteristics create a kind of boxy keyboard like low end that is very hard to get right on a record when you try to immitate the real thing because it sounds kind of flat and bulky. You need to be extremely selective in order to not choose the "wrong" sound and get that boxy kind of sound. This is especially the case with the kick drum and piano sounds in it that sound very "cheesy", partly because of the phase/cancellation. From what I heard on the Tyros 2 demo samples it goes in the right direction, especially with that Power Kit sound, but I could hear quite much cheesyness left, unfortunately...! I think the worst sound in the Yamaha Tyros (1) is the acoustic piano. To me it just doesn't sound close to the real thing, it has a completely different touch and vibe that feels very artificial.

Another thing with the Tyros is the noise in the outputs. While it is not noisy it could be more quiet. For instance my Roland A-90Ex digital piano is more quiet than the Yamaha Tyros and when you start adding tracks and limit you can clearly tell the difference in clearity. With the Yamaha Tyros the mic input is also much too noisy to be used on a professional record. It also has a noise gate that cannot be turned off which ruins the mic input that else can be used with an electric guitar with great results. I hope the Tyros 2 is equipped with digital outputs and a much less noisy mic pre-amp, because having all these great sounds and features and not be able to transfer them cleanly onto a recording is devastating...

Another thing that I think is annoying with the Yamaha Tyros is the way the sounds were sampled. It has not many stereo samples, so for instance without stereo drums you really have a hard time getting a full and wide sound on a record. I hope the Tyros 2 has more stereo samples.

I don't think there will be many keyboards able to compete with the sounds of the Tyros 2 yet, some of the sounds are simply the best immitations by a keyboard. From listening on those demo samples I think mainly the saxophone and the guitar sounds will make it the most advanced keyboard in the world, though still pretty far from the real thing. The goal with a keyboard is to immitate a complete band as good as possible. For reaching this goal key element sounds become extremely important. Obviously much attention is on the drum sounds, since the drums form the base foundation of a good groove, something that is the second most important element of a song (after the vocals/lead element) When listening to that Power Kit sound of the new Yamaha Tyros 2 you notice a huge difference in sound quality from the old Tyros. The Tyros has a very compact, dead and cheesy drum sound that I think will make professionals turn away from it. But the drum sounds of the Tyros 2 have more life and will certainly make the Tyros 2 a far better sounding keyboard than the Tyros, overall, this kind of an improvement in the drum sound section is simply making the keyboard step up a level.

When it comes to the demo samples I am not very impressed but not very dissapointed either. It seems like I'm more dissapointed with the demo sample choices than with the sounds. I would like to hear the acoustic piano of the new Yamaha Tyros 2 more. In my taste that is the the third most important element in a keyboard driven sound. If it is as cheesy and harsh as in the Tyros 1 it is simply not good enough for me because several cheesy sounding elements on a mix simply destroy the whole mix. With the Yamaha Tyros 1 you could add drums, piano and bass and already have a too cheesy low end. If two elements form a cheap low end I think I'm not ready to spend what Yamaha asks for this professional keyboard.

When you listen to the demo samples of the Tyros 2, don't be fooled by the marketing hype. If you listen carefully you will notice that many of those samples still sound very keyboard like and this means that you need to be very selective with sounds even with the new Yamaha Tyros 2. To me this is a little surprise since I thought all those sample layers would create the realism needed in order to create a softer and more realistic vibe. The sound quality has been improved, that's very obvious when listening to the sax, guitar and drum sounds, is it suitable for being used in a professional studio? I'm not sure... I have a feeling that it's mainly those upper freq range sounds you want to use in it, like for instance strings, woodwinds, brasses and flutes, the guitar sound is still to cheesy to use on a record, the acoustic piano (from the little I heard) also seems as cheesy as in the Tyros 1 and so on. I was pretty impressed with the orchestral demo sample, to me it was the least cheesy sounding of them all.

I can only admit that even though many sounds in it don't impress me I'm very interested in this keyboard and I'm glad that Yamaha will launch this keyboard. For me I think it is mainly up to the features of it whether I am going to buy it or not because I know it is not the perfect sound source for using in a recording studio. In that regard it is just like any other keyboard on the market, it sounds very much like a keyboard and that is sometimes good in a recording studio, but mostly not. I prefer clean sounding synth like samples, for instance the low end of a good Roland synth. Right now I think I would like to choose Roland for low frequency sounds (Piano, Bass, Organ), Kurzweil for low-mid frequency sounds (Pads) and Yamaha for high frequency sounds (Orchestral). I would record drums and guitar as real instruments.

Great post. Very illustrative, very enlightening to me.
A question. Are your opinions about Tyros leaving from the comparison with others arrangers? Do you think that those Tyros defects are not present in Roland G-70 or Korg PA1?

Still want a Tyros 1?
Starkeeper

That Tyros 2 is going to be nice. However, I was also looking towards the T1 because costs should be going down with the release of the T2.

Squeak

VoiceOfspace, could you answer to Artaher's question; it would be interesting to have a comparative point of view. Thanks

Thanks! The "defects" of the Tyros are NOT present in the Roland G-70 or the Korg PA1. But there is a price to pay for this. As you all know the realism of the Yamaha Tyros sounds are quite good in comparison with other keyboards. This is much due to how the sounds were sampled and its DSP engine. A lot of the samples in the Tyros are pseudo stereo samples, that means they have been sampled in mono, copied the track and applied something like a pitch shifter/chorus/delay and then panned hard left and right. But they have also used the phase in combination with this to create the realism. This is very obvious when using a PAZ analyzer. This in turn creates the perception of an acoustic type of sound. While this might work good enough for live usage and sounds great when soloing instruments it is hard to get right on a recording, since layering these kinds of sounds easily create phasing issues or something called "big mono". Now, what you normally do with pseudo stereo samples on a recording is to throw away the wet channel and create your own stereo sound. This normally works great, that's however not the case with the Yamaha Tyros, because when you do there's little natural warmth and clearity left. Take for instance the kick drum or digital piano. While it blends in better in the mix it also dies. Actually it is quite flat sounding. When using keyboards on a recording the ideal sound is a stereo sample that in itself sounds natural.

If you are thinking about going for either a Yamaha Tyros or Roland G-70 and use it as the base foundation of your recorded material, the Roland G-70 WILL sound better! It is quiter and has a much much better low end. It is not as realistic sounding but it hasn't got the cheesyness of the Tyros and that's the key. This means you can use at least drums, bass, organ, accoustic piano with a much better result than with the Tyros! As you noticed I was giving examples of sounds that all are quite heavy rhythm element sounds. This is important to pay attention to since a good sounding rhythm element is much more important for a song than for instance the pad element. Going with the Roland G-70 will give you a clear low end which will give your sound a professional edge which is always nice to build something around. Compared to the Korg PA1 it is also better because the combination of rhythm and pad is better in the Roland, much better. The organ is better, the bass is better and the piano is better. The Roland G-70 probably has been the most professional sounding keyboard so far.

If cheesy means 'realistic sounding', then I say: bring on the CHEESE !


Our 'ears' defintitely 'differ' here. - Scott

Voice,your opinion is based against the tyros,i copied this from another site ,again its only an opinion of the new tyros 2,but it certainly appeals,,,

Just received a letter from my local music store which highlights the changes you will see on the new tyros 2.
This is the gist of the letter.
Over the last two years there has been 2 significant developments - THAT THE TYROS LACKS.
1. The Korg PA1x - this keyboard took sound quality and expression to a new level - far greater than the Tyros. The only drawback has been the ease of use: things are generally a lot easier on the Tyros.
Justin, my local guru, then goes on to say, if he was given the task of designing the ultimate keyboard, this is what he would do.
1. Keep the same operating system as the Tyros.
2. Add the awsome quality of the Korg PA1x's sounds and rhythms with their amazing expression.
3. Add the USB feature as on the PSR3000 but put it at the front where the disk drive used to be.
4. Ability to easily make a CD and add other 'live' instruments or vocals.
5. Organ section - to make the keyboard comparable in sound to a traditional organ.

Well - THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YAMAHA HAVE DONE WITH THE NEW TYROS 2.

[This message has been edited by nardoni2002 (edited 09-30-2005).]

I just want to add that if you are thinking about buying a G-70, wait! First of all, just because the G-70 sounds better than the Tyros in some basic sound categories it doesn't necessarily mean it sounds good enough. To tell you the truth, I would never buy the Roland G-70 myself. As I already said the G-70 is quite and less cheesy in the rhythm element, which makes it easier to process on a recording so that you end up with a good result, unfortunately the price to pay is rather high and this is I think the really interesting thing in the context of these keyboards and the Tyros 2.

The Tyros 2 has a voice realism no other keyboard has, that's simply just a fact. It takes a professional to get it right on a recording though. When comparing each sound category the Tyros will win in most of the categories. Its guitar sounds are absolutely fantastic in comparison, the same with the sax. The drums are among the better, the electric pianos too. The acoustic piano, from what I've heard, is not very impressive, but then you have a whole range of really good sounds like flutes, strings, brasses and some good organs too, all of them compensating well for the bad acoustic piano. The organs and the acoustic pianos are clearly better in the Roland G-70 (from the sounds I've heard). Now, when thinking about its expansion features I think the Tyros 2 becomes very interesting in comparison. Here you have a keyboard that has the best realism in a lot of categories with the chance of getting great sounding rhythm elements some day too...! So I would really choose the Tyros 2 before the Roland G-70, any day...

Instead of going for a Roland G-70 I would choose a good Roland synth instead, that's because you get more rhythm element sounds for the money. You get a clean low end. You get a professional vibe in another range, you don't get any better acoustic piano sound or organ, but you do get better basses and drums! When it comes to a really good sounding low end, for instance bass and electric piano, the Roland IS the winner of them all. It is deep, clean and quite. Comparing that with the low end of an acoustic piano sound in the Tyros is just like night and day! This clean low end is very useful on a professional recording! It doesn't necessarily need to be audible as long as it is there somewhere. What you would normally do with the electric pianos of the Tyros would be to apply a high pass filter just to clean up the low end. You would also turn down frequencies around 400Hz and 800Hz to minimzie the cheesyness. But I think many would really like to layer some low end of the Roland instead just to make it deeper sounding in a clean way, because you want clean frequencies down there when you start mixing for depth with an EQ effect on those frequencies.

If I would choose between a Roland G-70 and a Korg PA1/X I would choose the korg. I don't like much immitations of it but it has great sounding drums in comparison and the basses are rather good too. I think I would choose it because of drums and bass, but mostly because of the drums. The Korg PA1/X is a very clean sounding keyboard (little noise in the signal path), so in that regard it is good for recording. Unfortunately it cannot immitate real instruments very good so you would end up with a lot of spacy pads, synths, drums and maybe some basses. But because of the bad organs and accoustic pianos I think it doesn't overall win over the G-70, it's just that drums are really important on a mix and it has better drums than the G-70.

Something I think is the wrong path is when keyboard/synth manufacturers try to build a complete DAW inside a keyboard. I just feel that digital outputs is enough, for getting the work done you need a good amount of CPU power, something that keyboards don't have. I really hope Yamaha has equipped the Tyros 2 with digital outputs and not only a hard disk recording feature.

BTW, the Pop and Rock demo sample of the new Tyros 2 is I think as cheesy as it can get! Really bad dist guitar, really bad kick drum and snare drum, quite dizzy hi-hat not a very impressive sound I have to say...! The Korg PA has better drums it seems like. For some reason the Power Kit demo sample was removed...

I really have mixed feelings about the Tyros 2. I have to admit that I'm not THAT excited about its sounds, much because it doesn't seem to address a solution to the quality of the basic elements.

Maybe I'm just going through a period or something, but I'm kind of starting to feel a little annoyed about keyboard sounds in general. It's realistic and very cheesy sounding. The low end of the new Yamaha Tyros 2 is not very impressive... The only thing that seems interesting about it is its expansion features. I just want to hear more "good sounding" stuff before I'm hooked. It's incredible what Yamaha has done, but the keyboard manufacturers in general are far from getting close to the real thing. I don't think I will buy the Tyros 2, I have to wait for more sound samples and I would also like to hear some of those optional samples downloadable from the internet...

I didn't like those two demos either. Yamaha has always had weak drums. They just lack "punch". That's why I generally do drum work on external devices such as drum machines.

I do think Korg and Roland have always had the edge in the drum department.

You have some very interesting and well thought out insights on the new Tyros. Very informative.

Squeak

Thanks! You too!

I think it's interesting how much a good drum sound means in a keyboard. The Korg PA1/X is a good example.

Often people mean the kick drum and the snare drum when they are talking about the drum sound. The hi-hat, rides, toms and cymbals are often not as much in focus and people easily forget that a drum kit really should have many good sounds for each drum, not only one, and the whole kit should be good sounding. One problem with the drums in the Yamaha Tyros is that while the drum samples are pretty realistic and detailed the sounds are rather dead due to the very limited velocity envelope. You can hear different samples triggered at different velocities, but the number of layers are very few and the sound varies very much between the layers, hence resulting in a very flat and unrealistic sound. What I noticed about the Power Kit in the new Tyros 2 was that the velocity envelope was much bigger hence resulting in a much wider dynamic range which made the drums less flat sounding. I thought it was much much better sounding! I also think that the Yamaha Tyros (1) lack some in the hi-freq drum sounds, especially the cymbal sounds that I think are rather "cheesy". Especially the hi-hat has to respond very aggressively sound wise on different velocity levels in order for the rhythm to sound natural, that's not the case with the Tyros (1). When a drummer hits the snare he also usually hits the hi-hat a little harder because of the tensions between coordinating the arms/hands. This in turn makes the rhythm more punchy. Details like these are very important when it comes to the rhythm element since so much of the sound is velocity driven. If the velocity envelope is very controlled and tight you get bored with the rhythm element, hence you get bored with the whole song. This is why I prefer real drums instead of keyboard sounds when recording, because I think it's very time consuming trying to get keyboard drums sound enough interesting. But the power kit in the Tyros 2 was much better, so I think the keyboard manufacturers are heading in the right direction. I'm sure this is only the beginning. Some virtual instruments can handle many layers already, so being able to record very "natural" sounding keyboard and synth productions is soon not a problem anymore.

In the keyboard world I think the rhythm element is the thing that creates the biggest differences between the sound of different keyboardists. Many are using a drum machine to replace the cheap sounding kits in the main keyboard and that's a very popular approach in the professional keyboard world. But with keyboards like the Tyros series it becomes kind of silly having to use an external drum machine because when buying a keyboard in that price range I think a good drum sound is a basic need.

Take a listen to the drums in the this song, "Dock of the Bay" played by Dwight Sills. You might think it sounds rather "normal", but even though it is a kind of laid-back sound it makes the song very very groovy! Pay attention to the hi-hat. Instinctively you don't focus much on the drums in this song, because it grooves so well, but when you take a closer listen the drummer is aggressive on the hi-hat velocity. This is what most keyboards lack. They sound realistic in themselves but dead in a groove, especially in the built-in styles. Much of the keyboard drum cheesyness is enhanced due to this.

Dwight Sills - Dock of The Bay

Surprisingly enough, there is an old style from the Roland-G 800 that had that same kind of groove: it was called 8 beat R&B (I don't remember the number of the style). Funny that Roland was unable to come out with a similar or even better style in later arrangers (not to mention the G-70).
The guitar reminds me of Larry Carlton: maybe it's a Gibson 335?
Cool song!

Just like Larry Carlton, but the playing is differently, in a good way...! The sound is quite the same as Carlton's... I really like the guitar playing in this song! I like that guitar sound too! Obviously it's a Gibson, but I don't know the model...

So the Roland G-800 had this kind of a style? I didn't know that... I think it's a great style!

Yes, I am almost certain that it was called "8 beat 5 R&B".
Listening to your song better, I think that what really sets the groove is the bass, more than the hi-hat, and this leads me to touch a sore point of many arrangers, including the Tyros: the bass is overly quantized and does not swing or groove at all!
Maybe the Korg PA1X-pro is different under this regard, and even the styles are longer (they last 8 beats in average, vs. 4 for the Tyros, thus allowing for a greater variability).


[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 10-01-2005).]

BTW, in the little faster parts of the solo it sounds a lot like a Fender strat too, but I think he only switches the pickup position to a more open position and the rest is EQes, so I think it's a good Gibson guitar that sounds a little like a Fender strat.

VoiceofSpace,
I totally agree with you. Sometimes I feel that keyboard makers forget how important drums are. You could have a style for example that has great bass, piano, and other non percussive instruments, and those parts sound really good, but the drums always seem to lack punch. Something as simple as a really crappy snare can throw off the feel entirely to a song.

That's also been my BIGGEST gripe with so many arrangers. Even though some may have halfway decent drum samples, they always sound pre-programed and lack flavor or "life". It's the same way with pre-recorded bass lines in an arranger keyboard. They just don't have the level of "umph" in certain styles where it's needed to carry that particular style. I think these two tracks in a style alone (are dead give-a-ways to whether a song has been done on an arranger keyboard)

All my drum tracks are done with external gear. I use a Boss DR-3 and sometimes my Zoom MRT-3 for my drum tracks. The Boss has so much realism to the patterns, not to mention the "kits" just "kick ass" in my opinion compared to some arrangers.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 10-01-2005).]

Dreamer, I agree that the bass player makes the right thing for the groove and that arrangers lack this kind of interesting bass figures.(especially those with several strings sustained at the same time) Bass is a very important rhythm element so it is a very crucial thing for keyboard styles. Listen though what happens in the chorus. The bass player simplifies his lines a lot but the groove is still there! Listen to the bass in the end of the song. It's nothing special about that tone. The bass sound is kind of picky and low in sustain and I think a keyboard can come pretty close to that sound, only choose a pick bass and then set the EQ rather dark. Of course in this case the bass player plays rather advanced figures so it would not sound the same and with a cheesy pick bass guitar sound it wouldn't sound as good. Even though the bass sound in this song is not very special IMHO, it is not including a muddy low end like the bass guitars in some arrangers.

squeak_D,

I listened once again to some Tyros 2 sound samples and noticed that there are some important parts in a drum kit sound:

- Clearity
- Velocity response
- Realism
- Stereo image

I think the punch is there as soon as the velocity response is good. The drums in the Yamaha Tyros 2 lack punch not only because of the rather low velocity response, but also because of the too low kick drum volume setting on many styles. A good feature in the Tyros 2 would be to be able to increase the volume on certain drums in an easy way. Today you have to open the style in the style editor and increase the volume in the event edit window which is kind of a lot of work for a simple and common thing. I would actually want to increase the kick drum volume on almost all the styles I play to get some more bite in the sound...

The stereo image of a drum kit is also very important. The new Tyros 2 should have stereo sampled drums which should create a bit more present kind of sound. I think delay is very important on a drum kit. It doesn't have to be applied very hard, but when it's there it becomes a little fatter and more present which creates the illusion of a better velocity response.