I am still learning how to use chords on the PSR, because sometimes the accomp. doesn't do what you expect. For instance it goes more than half an octave up, instead of down. And then you have find a different setting or even different chord to get the result you want. If that doesn't work or another chord is no option, you sometimes have to transpose.
Do you recognise that?

On "The Girl from Ipanema" I come across a different problem, where changing notes within chords doesn't give the results I want - the accomp. changes the entire chord instead of using alt notes. I understand the mechanism behind that though. In "the girl.." I changed the chords and the way I play them, so it DOES do what I want. This doesn't always work, but in "the girl .." it does.
So in this Bossa I use different chords on the guitar than on the arranger because of that. Well, I can't play both at the same time anyway

I notice there are not many discussion on this forum about chordprogressions and the way they can be played on the PSR. Don't you guys have problems like I described here? Or do you just accept where the accomp takes you?

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drdalet

I'm not sure what you mean by "different" chords. If you are talking about inversions then the only one that I know of in the PSR (and all other keybords) is the sixth chord against the minor seventh chord of the same key signature (eg. F6 or Dm7).

As these are the same notes in the chord then you have to play the sixth chord in it's root position and all other inversions are then minor seventh chords.

Where you want a specific root bass note that either is or isn't part of the chord then I have to switch to full keyboard mode as you generally need both hands for these.

There is a chord chart in the Tyros to show which chords are playable and I assume it is the same for all PSRs as well. This tells you of any requirements etc for formulating the chords you require.

KFingers


[This message has been edited by KFingers (edited 10-29-2004).]

Can you be more specific? What chords are you playing and what chords does your PSR3000 actually play. Sometimes on the PSR's you have to play some chords in root position. Ex. On my PSR550 I have to play suspended chords in root postion. If I play Dsus in a 1st inversion (I think) it will xlate that to a G chord (eeeee. wrong answer). My Roland xlates it correctly. SO on my Roland I can play it in 1st inversion but the same chors has to be played in root on the Yamaha. Not sure what you mean in your 1st paragraph. Not sure what this means either, "For instance it goes more than half an octave up, instead of down".
Need more input, Stephanie. (Short circuit)
Starkeeper

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 10-29-2004).]

KFingers, you're right about F6 and Dm7, but it's a good thing that they sound different because they have a different feel and should be different. The same with Am6 and F#m7-5.

But what I mean is hard to explain. So I looked for a few simple examples.
If I play the notes c-e-g-b (Cmaj7) with my right hand and then c-e-g-a (C6), the leading note b to a goes down. Now I do this only with my left hand (ACMP ON). Then you hear the chord go up from c-e-g-b to e-g-a-c, so an inversion. It gives another feel than intended.

Now if you play f-g#-a#-d (Bb7) and you want to go up to B7: f#-a-b-d# you here B7 in a inversion moving down!.
Same if you come from B7 and you want to move down to Bb7, it sound like it is going up. Of course it's the right chord but it is sometimes not what you want to hear. And it doesn't matter if you play the chord f-g#-a#-d or d-f-g#-a#, the accomp. plays the same chord.

An other example: I already mentioned The Girl from Ipanema. Coming from Fmaj7, the second chord is G7 13 (f-b-e). While I move my left hand up to Gm7 (g-a#-d-f) you actually here the accomp. go down to (f-g-a#-d).

So there are all kinds of surprising things happening with the accomp. In Bluesette there is also a moment that happens, but you hear the guitar go up and the vibes go down, so that is nice.
Another somewhat difficult example is also in The Girl from Ipanema. In the middlepart I woudl like to go from F#Maj7 to F#m6. But then as I play F#m6 (f#-a-c#-d#) I can not play (with my left pinky) g# to g to f#. It doesn't sound right. So I had to change the second chord to B7, then g# to g to f# with my pinky sounds very nice (you hear the guitar in the accomp. actually play the chords B7-13, B7aug, B7.) but I find F#m6 a nicer chord, so I play B7 in variation B of the Bossa Nova style and F#m6 when I improvise with variation C.
I also do that with the next two chords, F#m7 to D7 in variation B (d-f#-!a!-c using indexfinger playing the notes b to a# to a) and F#m7 to F#m7-5 in variation C.

Starkeeper, maybe I gave you more info now, but the remark I made where the chord suddenly was much higher sounding, had to do with what I made myself with the multipads. If I go from G (g-b-d) to G#, the sequences drop an entire octave. if I play Bb7 and go to Dm7, the sequences go UP.

Well, it is an arranger thing, and you can go around it by playing in other keys, or as I explained even other chords.

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drdalet

[This message has been edited by drdalet (edited 10-29-2004).]

It's the correct bass line in the ACMP, you are missing?

If 'Yes', try to get the following web page translated:
http://heidruns-musikerseiten.de/workshops/advanced.html

It's all about using the advanced features of the Yamaha ACMP. 'A whiter shade of pale' is taken as one example for contolling the typical bass line C-B-A-G-F-...

/Ulrich

How about using the fingered on bass option and then using the inversion that suits the effect you are trying to achieve.

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Graham

Hi Drdalet, you bring up an excellent topic indeed. I've experienced the SAME or similar challenges you outline. First of all, what specific chord 'fingering' mode (single finger, fingered, full keyboard, etc) do you use when you play your PSR kb? I assume (from the nature of your question) that you play in either fingered (split) or full keyboard mode, right?

As a keyboard player coming from a pianist background, I typically prefer playing in full keyboard mode, but on Yamaha arrangers, I've found 'full keyboard' mode chord recognition unreliable (at best) to achieve the chord recognition results I desired. Having been an accompaniment piano player (both solo and in a combo), I learned to play chord voicing which go beyond basic voicings of Root, 3rd, 5th, and 7th and their inversions only, of which quickly end up sounding bland and not that musicially interesting if that is all that is heard in a song, especially the classic american standards, which beg for more harmonic interest.

Interestingly enough, the PRIMARY reason I became interested in an arranger keyboard at all in the FIRST place, was because I had by accident (one day) stumbled into a music store and proceeded to play Cole Porter's: 'Night & Day' on an arranger keyboard the same way I do on an acoustic piano, using 'rootless' jazz style chord voicings that I had recently learned, and was totally amazed to discover that the arranger (Technics KN5000) was able to correctly recognize the 2 handed chords (stacked 4ths in full keyboard mode) I was playing. I began playing & performing professionally on an arranger kb from that day forward, because it gave me the opportunity to play in the same jazz pianistic comping style I was accustomed to when playing with a live jazz combo. Unfortunately, NO OTHER brand arranger keyboard recognizes these jazzy rootless chord voicings in FULL KEYBOARD mode, but I was later to discover that Yamaha did, but to a lesser (albeit more compromised) degree. Yamaha allows you to achieve the same rootless chord voicing recognition, but ONLY with the KB set in SPLIT MODE, using widely recognized rootless LEFT HAND chord voicings. This turned out to be an acceptable alternative for me, because I'm still able to play the same RIGHT hand jazz voicing (to fill out the sound) but it does NOT affect the original chord recognition that is triggered by the left hand. This also creates Yamaha's unique advatage over Technics FULL KEYBOARD only recognition, in that with Yamaha arrangers (in split fingered mode), you can play a left hand voicing (rootless) and play ANY note (notes) in the right and without affecting the chord recognition.

Drdalet, here are just a few rootless jazz type chords that I integrate (mix/match) along with the vanilla root style chords) that I use with Yamaha arranger keyboards in fingered (split mode), which offer MORE options (for smooth voice leading) and prevent the type of chord problems you outlined above.

A II-V-I chord progression (of which results in smooth voice leading)
Dm9: F1-C2-E2
G13: F1-B1-E2
C69: E1-A1-D2

The above of course applies in all KEYS!

If I want to include tensions (#9,b9, b13, #11, etc), for color & mood, I will include these in the portion of the chord played with the right hand, of which is often to refered to as an upper structure triad (this and rootless chords are covered in Mark Levine's: Jazz Piano book: http://www.shermusic.com/jazzpno.htm
).

Playing in auto accomp arranger presents unique challenges, but you can quickly overcome them to work to your advantage as well. Unfortunately on an internet forum of this nature where it's difficult to watch and experience each others playing first hand, it's hard to demonstrate what I'm talking about, but I assure you that I was able to demonstrate to sz members I've met in person what I'm referring to and have sold them on using these chord voicings in their music as well. Funny thing is that NONE of the manufacterers list these professional chord voicings in their manuals or literature. Perhaps it's a trade secret appreciated by the few like me. - Scott

Thanks for the advice Ulrich, fortunately my German is good enough to read it, and I will. I was not really talking about the bassline but the chords of the style, so the instruments that play CHD1 and CHD2.
In one case I had problems with CHD2 (the piano in BossaNova style) because it plays a note that is not pleasant together with the melody. I tried other chords, but that's not the solution.
But of course I have come across bass-problems too, so your advice is welcome.

And Scott, thanks for your long reply.
I will come back to it later, because I have to go out shopping now.
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drdalet

[This message has been edited by drdalet (edited 10-30-2004).]

Graham,

with Fingered On Bass you have to jump over the keyboard with your left hand to get the bass into your chord as lowest note. This is really limiting the posibility to use chord inversions as you would use normally.

An example: Put your Tyros or PSR3000 into AI Fingered mode (for the 9000pro it's Fingered Advanced). Choose a style with non jumping bass line (e.g HeardBeat in the PRO).

Start with a C chord (E-G-C), then press B-C, press A-C, press G-C, F-A-C, E-C.

What happens with your bass? Great, agreed?

/Ulrich

[This message has been edited by ulrich (edited 10-30-2004).]

[This message has been edited by ulrich (edited 10-30-2004).]

Hi Scott.
I only play "fingered", because I want total control over the chords. I read the previous mail by Ulrich and I tested "AI fingered". That is a good option as well, which gives some extra possibilities.
Full keyboard mode doesn't work for me.

I like to use the chords you mentioned too. And if you play Bossa you need to use such chords. If they weren't possible on an arranger I would never have bought one. Your story shows that it goes for you too.

I am not singing so I have to use my right hand for playing melody and improvs. So I have to do all the accomp. chords with my left hand. And I checked the manual beforehand what chords were possible. Well, Yamaha takes us a long way.
Sometimes we need a lot of fingers to play a chord. For instance from FM79 to F6, where I play with my left hand f-g-a-c-e to f-a-c-d. I sometimes play F69 instead of F6, so I only have to move my thumb from e to d (saves me lifting my ringfinger from the g).
In the Girl from Ipanema F13 (d#-a-d) the guitar sounds very tense (style Bossa Nova), but I use it anyway.

In this same song at one point I play:
Am7 / C#79 / Gm7 / C7b5!!
Now that last chord is a bit of a problem
I want to play C7b5b9(c-c#-e-f#-a#), but the keyboard shows F#7#11, and also the bass plays an F#. It is possible, but it is easier to play a C7b5 instead.
Well, I can live with these limitations.
... And I love the sound of Yamaha.
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drdalet

Correction on the chords above:
Am7 / C#79 / Gm7 / C7b5!!
I have changed it and I am now playing C7b9 (c-c#-e-g-a#) and since the melody note is a f#, put together I am playing C7b9#11.
It sounds better than C7b5.

[This message has been edited by drdalet (edited 10-30-2004).]