Greetings! I'm new here and had a long post that I was going to enter under a new topic, but this looks like a good place for it so I'll drop it in:

Stereo patches / Live Music / Mono vs. Stereo

Sorry about the long, multi-topic heading, but these issues present a dilemma for keyboard players. For the sake of simplifying, I’ll make some generalizations. If this has already been hashed over I apologize – I haven’t seen the thread.

The conventional wisdom among live sound professionals is that, generally, for live music, a mono system sounds better than stereo to most people in the audience. This is mainly due to fact that many people are located much closer to one speaker bank than the other. Depending on how much closer to one speaker, the sound they hear doesn’t have the desired imaging, seems to lack “information” and may be noticeably out of phase. For these people, a mono signal would sound better, ideally with the speakers arranged in a mono stack in the center of the stage. A mono system would not have to be a single centrally located stack to sound better, but that’s another topic and I am not too interested in it because…

I know that the stereo patches on my S90 don’t sound nearly as good in mono. When I listen to the sound through stereo monitors or headphones the sound is so wonderful and rich – that is how I would want the instrument to sound like live, only louder. Do I have to choose between mono, which will sound acceptable to everyone, or stereo that will sound great to those in the center, but poor to those not in the sweet spot?

I think there may be a way to allow the full expression of the stereo patches while avoiding many of the problems with stereo PA setups, but I am curious to hear what the rest of you think. Suppose you connect your synth to a stereo PA / two speaker system but instead of going for the usual wide separation of speakers, keep them closer together. After all, some of the most effective stereo patches on my S90 simulate what is generally a point source of sound like an EP, synth, organ or a leslie set-up . I can hear the effect of that spinning horn and a wide separation isn’t necessary and in fact sounds less like the original instrument or leslie. Wide separation is mainly important for pan effects and for imaging. Imaging is really more of a studio/recording consideration that is problematic in live shows as mentioned above.

It seems that in smaller venues where its power is sufficient a Motion Sound KP200S would be an ideal set up. You get true stereo sound from two channels. Yet the speakers are close enough together to eliminate the problems caused by separation. The amp features a control to allow you to enhance the stereo separation effect, if desired. This technology would give the listener the perception of wider separation but without the major problems of true wide separation – the sound is coming from speakers that are side by side. I have not heard the KP200S yet, but I am curious as to how good the sound is from various locations in the audience. I’m sure it sounds great in the sweet spot, on axis with the speaker, just as a PA system does. The sound pros concede that stereo sounds better than mono for the folks who are equidistant from widely separated speakers. But how does the KP200S sound as you move off axis? Any other thoughts?

Another fragment of the "what do I lose with summed mono outputs" there was a time when all you got was a chorus button (e.g. Yamaha PF10) and the basic instrument was mono. The effect was added "normal" to get one stereo channel and "inverted" to get the other. The chorus effect was very pleasant in stereo but totally disappeared in "summed mono". I dont think this happens much these days.

I'm a big fan of stereo, and sincerely believe that it sounds far superior to mono, especially at large venues. For the small jobs, though, nite clubs, etc, it realy does not make a lot of difference. I do not believe the sound of mono is quite as rich and full, however, the audience doesn't seem to know, or for that matter give a damned!

Gary

This is why the sound of the KP-200s is hard to describe - I think a lot of people have the general idea but hearing it is another matter. Once you engage the amp's stereo spatial enhancer, you alter the sound in a way known as "psychoacoustics" and the sounds seem to come from places where no speaker is. The room reflections are also altered and you hear different aspects of the sound coming from places other than the amp. However you still hear pretty much all of the sound whether you are "on-axis" or not. Remember again that when listening to a normal band it's quite difficult to get a seat that is always "on-axis" anyway, so you are nearly always in less than perfect listening circustances anyway and there is only so much you can do.

I disagree with Gary: I think stereo makes a greater difference in smaller and more intimate environments than larger ones. Most people today are used to good close-quarters stereo music, be it from their car or their TV or their bedside radio.

My Yamaha P120 and my Yamaha P90 digital pianos have only stereo piano samples, no mono piano samples. When playing through a mono sound systm, my Yamaha stereo piano sounds, and other brands too, suffer and become thin, edgy and almost all attack. This is the case for most stereo sample keyboard sounds. When the left and right samples are summed on top of each other into mono their is an out of alignment problem that causes a chorusing and phase cancelation effect.

Liam,

This may well be the case for a single instrument player or for a synth player who is playing single timbre notes. Even with a real piano, where you get some physical separation of sound, the amount of such separation is quite small, though definitely noticeable when you are close up.

The majority of people in this forum are playing Arranger keyboards, which simulate
the entire bands. When you listen to the band, hearing it from a single source sounds unrealistic They can not possibly all be in the very same spot physically. Having proper stereo separation goes a long way to adding realism to the sound of our instruments.

Regards,
Alex

Well actually it was my understanding that mono was genreally considered to sound better for full bands, not just single instruments. Do those of you who use arranger keyboards encounter any problems playing a stereo rig with with wide separation? I am really curious about the potential of the KP200s to overcome these problems. Or have you found any other effective ways to address them?

The 'ONLY' reason I have to run out stereo, is because, as a performing musician who features 'acoustic piano' playing, the top acoustic piano patches on Yamaha PSR keyboards all require a true 'stereo image' to sound decent. Going out mono results in effects phase cancellation, resuslting in a thin unacceptable acoustic piano sound. If it weren't for this, going out Mono would be fine with me for my gigs. - Scott