Rory...Trident...you both got to the essence of the discussion, I think.

Entertainers need to play to audiences. Musicians need to play for themsaelves.

Most of us are a little of both.

I personally admire the innovators who stuck it out and figured out how to innovate and pay the bills at the same time. It's a pretty hard way to go, and a lot of the best really suffered and did without.

Some make sacrifices for their art. A very few are recognized and reap rightfully deserved rewards.

Rory, I woud say that what happens is we "convert "people to the choir, as well as play to them. Think of yourself. someone got you into complex structures, appreciation of
the best in the business? If you're like me, you're really glad that happened.


Russ

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 08-21-2006).]

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 08-21-2006).]

No, it's not just you. Mind-blowing, isn't it. What so hard about hitting "Enter" twice between paragraphs?

------------------
Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

You're not wrong. I'm one of guiltiest of the guilty parties.

I tend to get caught up in thought and sort of forget about structure.

As is my custom when returning home late from the bar, I beg for forgiveness and promise not to do it again.......maybe.


chas

Sorry folks for not being around in a while,
been busy trying to get open, although I have not been posting, I have been reading and kinda keeping up with things.....my comments are that Joe hit the nail with his reply. Good show Joe...

Please, let us all remember that we all have different levels of
talent, skills, musicianship, showmanship and all of the other ingredients necessary to get up there before a group of people to play for or to entertain
to the point of making their night special or unforgettable. However you do it should not distract from your abilities or your talent or make it seem that you are less than you are, some of us are not multi talented while others are.
Don't let this thread or comments from any other thread make you feel less than what you are or intimidate you to not try to do your best what ever it takes.
I'm a vocalist and entertainer not a musician but it doesnt keep me from wanting and trying to learn how to play better, at 67 years I'm finally learning to play the keyboard but I will use what ever is at my disposal to please my audience and myself. Let's all make MUSIC the best way we know how, what ever it is, I'll bet you'll feel better for it...cheers and good luck and again, Joe, good post.
TR

Wasn't referring to anyone in particular Chas To help myself, I tend to hold down the control key and use the scroll wheel on the mouse to make all the text bigger and easier to read. Maybe I need an eye exam!

About 2 ½ years ago I started to work with midi files – not because I wanted to, but because the demands out there were changing.

My home time was divided 30% playing and 70% on midi files. The songs I played without thought were not as easy anymore. My ability to play was diminishing. I would play hour after hour – my fingers seemed to be finding their own way.

So my narrow view of midi files and musicianship developed into a dislike for midi files. They were not me, I wanted more of me. I love the freedom of playing live.

I have stepped back and taken a different healthy view;

I’m one lucky guy, I can do it all, I can take advantage of every part of the creating of music – and enjoy it without prejudice. It is no longer one or the other.

Only my 2 cents, John C.

I really like the analogy of Frank Sinatra using arrangers!

A great musician, a great entertainer, but someone else wrote the songs, someone else wrote the arrangement, and a whole heap of someone else's played ALL the parts except for the lead vocal......

Technology has increased the APPARENT number of parts we can play at one time (Hammonds virtually killed the big bands), but the truth of it is, we still only have ten digits, what we do with them is our calling card. The more you let the arranger do, the less your audience is going to associate you with the music.....

Arranger keyboards are a revenue device (for professionals)..... If you were TRULY interested in the music above all else, there is no choice but to play in a real band, with all it's disadvantages to your bank balance, or be a solo pianist and hope there is a decent piano at the gig. Arrangers merely allow you to work cheaper than a full band, and give the illusion, sonically, that you still are one, but they provide none of the day-to-day inspiration that working with others provide.

As to educating the public....... I don't think you give them enough credit. Most of them KNOW it's not real, it's just that their focus and tastes have changed. MTV changed everything. The nature of TV always emphasizes the pretty over the talented. Look at all the good, ugly bands that died out when MTV started in the early 80's, and the rise of Duran Duran type pretty boys. We moan about it, but seldom realize that it came about because videos are an entirely different medium to music.

In many ways, music has returned to a very Broadway-ish mentality, where the staging and the dancing is as important as the music (many an average musical survived because of great choreography and sets!). Few of us will criticize Broadway musicals, yet happily slander Brittney Spears, or Madonna, who are their logical successor. And nowadays, you are hard pressed to find a Broadway show that doesn't use tapes to replace the full orchestra and sometimes even the chorus!

As corporate America forces us to be as bottom-line as possible, and fewer and fewer of the middle and lower classes can afford entertainment with a high labor cost, what we see in the music industry only reflects what is being done to the workers as a whole - the musical equivalent of outsourcing and downsizing...... For those of us that have chosen music as a profession, we have as little choice to go along with it as the unemployed tech support guy in California.

Maybe Europe is showing us the way with the huge popularity of arrangers over there...... $9 a gallon gasoline makes for a very expensive band cost, singles are far more cost effective. Guitarists will always get by, but I pity the drummers and bass players in the next ten years.....

Educate the public......... Nah! Might as well tell them to stop driving and buy a bicycle - global warming is upon us! They are always going to do what they want to do, and no Hammond player ever got famous for telling his audience that he was playing the big band parts...... he just played them, and let his audience dance (which is all they wanted to do in the first place)!

As the general public has become more educated, many intellectual-artists I've met have become more disparaging of the public's intellectual incapacities and other moral shortcomings.

There is no need to "teach the audience". In 1940 for example, in the United States more than half of the U.S. population had only an eighth-grade education, or less. Now 85 percent are high-school graduates, 53 percent have some college education and 27 percent are college graduates. However it is an article of faith among many artist-intellectuals that the public is becoming increasingly obtuse, bigoted and superstitious.

Please do not underestimate the intelligence of your audience. Today's audiences have hundreds of musical options available and the fact that they are attending your performance should be considered an honor.

Some music; Jazz, for instance, is an acquired taste. The issue about education is not about general education, but education centered around the particular art form. Winton Marcellis is overpowering and obnoxious but committed to education in the area of Jazz and Jazz history. There are many others. Thankfully, there are mechanisms in place that make that happen.

The situation is, some music art forms are not sustainable as commercial endeavors. The great debate is, if no one wants to pay to listen or buy recordings, is it worth preserving? That's where organizations like the National Endowment for the Arts and others come in.

The world is full of music educators and "leading edge" perrformers who couldn't/can't make it solely as performers. We have concentrated here on whether or not it's up to us to educate. Probably not for most of us.

But, I think having someone do it is valid.

Look at all the brilliant musicians from the past who were plagued with poverty, addictions...even insanity, in some instances. They STILL made priceless contributions to the over-all advancement of music styles, structure, compositions, etc.

It's pretty hard not to at least recognize these contributions to a better world.


Russ