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#141083 - 08/19/06 11:29 AM Re: 1 philosophical question re "playing"
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Chas, as usual, a thoughtful, well presented arguement which I can really relate to.

I especially liked the comparison of Diana Krall with sports figures, etc.

I think it comes down to a decision of personal ethics. And, decisions are different for musicians vs. entertainers.

"Hard liners" (and I am one) have to make some real choices and sacrifices. I WON'T play country music and won't play for mostly country audiences. I WON'T use sequences.

I WON'T play tunes of no consequence to simply please audiences.

There are lots of things I won't do. And, I pay the consequences every day, in terms of limited audiences and reduced income.

I should clarify...I CAN'T live with playing anything which compromises my own set of guidelines which determine what I do music-wise.

Now, I'm not trying to preach from my high horse, and I'm not implying that anyone who does it differently is doing anything wrong.

As a musician, I feel I walk the tricky road between entertaining and enlightening. I have an obligation to myself to present music of substance...to try to open the minds of listeners.

When you take that approach, you risk playing yourself out of a job. If playing for the public was my sole source of income, I might quickly change my approach (remember all the superior jazz musicians who starved themselves, died paupers, etc.)? My compromise is to:

1. Play at upscale restaurants as a"mood/background" musician.

2. Play "two for them...one for me".

3. Gratefully accept less compensation.

4. Make most of my music income from composing industrial film scores, instead of live performances.

Being true to myself is paramount to me. And, I've been doing this since I was 10...fifty years last February, with 9 weeks off.

I made these choices, and I have no regrets.
The rest of the world can play and listen to Jimmy Buffet.

Not me!


Thanks, Chas,

Russ Lay


[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 08-19-2006).]

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#141084 - 08/19/06 11:42 AM Re: 1 philosophical question re "playing"
MrEd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/04
Posts: 519
Quote:
Originally posted by captain Russ:
Chas, as usual, a thoughtful, well presented arguement which I can really relate to....

I WON'T play tunes of no consequence to simply please audiences....
....

My compromise is to:

1. Play at upscale restaurants as a"mood/background" musician.

2. Play "two for them...one for me"....







[This message has been edited by MrEd (edited 08-19-2006).]

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#141085 - 08/19/06 01:21 PM Re: 1 philosophical question re "playing"
FAEbGBD Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 847
Loc: Nashvville TN
I think though that if you're going to draw those lines, then you've got to play for audiences who have drawn similar lines. So, rather than educating the masses, you're still singing to the choir. I don't think it's possible to educate a lot of people, not because they would necessarily rather remain ignorant, but simply because their minds and ears can't process it. For instance, my dad is country and Gospel music through and through. Now I love country and Gospel music. But I also love jazz. Have for about 14 years, which is half my life. But regardless how much Dad listens to me play jazz, he just can't understand it and enjoy it. He respects it as quite an advanced and difficult music, but his ears and sense of harmony doen't allow him to make sense of flat 9 sharp 11 chords. So he can't appreciate it, even if he wanted to. But how could he want to if it sounds wrong and bad to him?

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 08-19-2006).]

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#141086 - 08/19/06 01:51 PM Re: 1 philosophical question re "playing"
MrEd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/04
Posts: 519
I hear ya Rory and have experienced that too.
But even if you take the genre of music out of the equation, only specific audiences are looking for a true artistic performance and again that is at concerts and venues of that specific nature.
In my huge area, Chicago, places that focus more on the artistry rather than the "are we having fun yet?" have dwindled from what they were. And thats even in the venues that program for the elders, baby boomers types who grew up through the times where more focus on the art was common.

Not because top musician/vocalist/artists aren't in the area, but because the requirements of the audience has changed. The clubs lounges and other venues are packed with half adequate talent and that happens just by opening the doors to the place.

The super ultra talents in the area have to promote and advertise in papers and with flyers posted in stores, their musical performances, months in advance to generate the audience.

I hated too, to see the dwindling of the music programs in schools which proved or reflected the loss and lack of interest in the art itself.

Days gone by, I could walk into any convenience store around here and buy an issue of Keyboard mag, or Downbeat mag which really focused on the music artist.
Well, now I have to go to the larger book stores to find them, even though the mag racks in the convenients, oscos, walgreens have increased their capacities 300%.

Looking at their selections now, the wants of society are on material things, cars, trucks, cycles, several guitar mags, and Women, Women, Women.


[This message has been edited by MrEd (edited 08-19-2006).]

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#141087 - 08/19/06 02:48 PM Re: 1 philosophical question re "playing"
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Chas,

In sincerely believe that technology, especially recent technological advances in the quality of arranger keyboards, have transformed a fairly steep learning curve into a enjoyable experience for huge numbers of upcoming musicians and performers. Granted, technology has also provided a number of shortcuts, but IMO technology has opened doors for individuals who could not comprehend the complexities of traditional music training.

This technology also allows us to be creative, both with live, improvisitional, performances, and also enhancing vocal performances. Arranger keyboards are a wonderful tool for live performers, and in the foreseeable future they will be utilized more than anyone could have imagined.

Historically, I'm confident that early minstrals were absolutely dismayed when the piano was invented. The irony of this is that all of those instruments, no matter how far you look back in time, are still with us. The keyboard is just another musical instrument, and a rather magnificent instrument at that. Technology has brought about a host of musical advancements through the ages, and mastering those instruments will always require training, dedication and talent.

I've never been saddened by technological advances. Instead, I'm always intrigued by the creativity that went into the technology, and I applaud those wonderful individuals that have brought this about in such a short period of time. I feel very fortunate to have witnessed these changes, and I'm looking forward to what the next gerneration of arranger keyboards has to offer.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#141088 - 08/19/06 03:40 PM Re: 1 philosophical question re "playing"
Spalding1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 236
Loc: birmingham,england
What saddens me most though, is the attitude that "entertainment" is intrinsicly more valuable than the art form itself. It saddens me to hear excuses like "make a living and support his family"; but the fact is, there are many ways to make a living and support your family, you CHOSE music. Doesn't that require that you learn your craft (as much as a cabinet maker or master chef).

The art itself has limited value. If nobody apprecited motzart nomatter how talented he was his name would have disappeared without a mention in any history book. I am sure he really loved his music and luckily for him so did a lot of others. Lets not kid ourselves, the music only has intrinsic value to the artist. If it has no comercial value then its dead in the water. I assume those of you that perform professionally do so with the satisfacton that they are getting paid. Be true to your "art" if thats what you need to do to get job satisfaction but dont forget the bottom line. If music is your livelihood and you forget why you are getting paid. Making a living is never an excuse, its the reason you work professionally as a musician . If thats not the truth of a working musicians baseline then i will happily book the "artist" here for a couple of pounds for n evenings "entertainment".
_________________________
dont quit.......period

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#141089 - 08/19/06 04:05 PM Re: 1 philosophical question re "playing"
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Arrrgghh. Gary, again I agree with most of what you say, but you're starting (and ending) from a position of "chas hates technology and/or arranger keyboards". Not so. I'm an engineer, I'm in love with technology. Captain Russ often speaks of his "love/hate" relationship with his arranger KB. I'm pretty much the same...when used as a tool to stimulate creativity and assist in bringing the result of that creativity to speedy fruition, then I love them. When used as a crutch to stifle creativity and artistic development, I hate them. Someone mentioned the decline of music programs in our schools, thereby diminishing the number of trained musicians in the next generation. And that may be the REAL issue in this thread. As FAEbGBD correctly pointed out, it's already too late for the "older generation" who not only can't adjust their taste in music (and probably shouldn't have to try) but are also content to hack out the chords to Moon River on their auto-accompaniment keyboards. So maybe it's too late to "educate" our current audiences, but maybe we SHOULD obligate ourselves to stop the downward slide that seems to be the trend with our young people. If you've got kids or grandkids, try to expose them to something of quality and explain to them that Gramps is only using this arranger KB for convenience and that they need to turn off the iPod and go practice their piano lesson. And good luck with that .

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#141090 - 08/19/06 08:59 PM Re: 1 philosophical question re "playing"
keysvocalssax Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 845
Loc: Miami FL nov-may/Lakeville CT ...
hey, stop hijacking my KVS thread! just kidding..never
realized I would be opening up such a Pandora's Box..am
thoroughly enjoying reading all these well-founded opinions and am learning a lot from them, too. Before I jump in with my 2 cents worth again, I want to apologize for the clumsy analogy re spelling in my last thread which offended some. I wasn't trying to be a mean-spirited spelling critic--I would have served all better had I been clearer..probably an analogy about using spellchecker technology as a shortcut compared to using transpose technology to achieve the same end would have been
right on. Like that better? Ok, here's the 2 cents worth:

It seems to me everyone is making very valid points, but
some of the underlying assumptions should maybe come under more scrutiny. If music is good, why should it matter how it is achieved? Again I cite Irving Berlin: he "cheated",used a transposer(all the time!!!), and became arguably our greatest--
certainly our most prolific and enduring-- songwriter. The digital piano eliminates the need to tune. Would you argue
that having to determine when your piano needs tuning is invaluable ear training, therefore the player of a digital piano is a fraud? On the other hand, there is the issue of
crap music. If the spread of technology is in large part responsible for the preponderance of drek, then a case can be made that the ease of production allows music to
fall into less capable hands, and therefore standards of
craftsmanship should be maintained for that reason alone
and those who shortcut should be despised. However, if
you take that stance...remember it is you who are using
arranger keyboards. do you fell like a hypocrite?
A friend who is a well-known recording engineer said this to me 15 years ago: "The studio and recording technology keeps getting better and better, the sound quality improves by quantum leaps--at the same time the product gets worse and worse...why should that be?" Oh my, always are more questions, eh?
Miami Mo
_________________________
Miami Mo

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#141091 - 08/19/06 11:56 PM Re: 1 philosophical question re "playing"
Caragabal Offline
Member

Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 320
Loc: Hobart Tasmania Australia
Some years ago I organised a Christmas programme using recorded music from the "great composers" combined with the traditional Christmas hymns sung by the congregation from a more working class background.
I felt a lot of gratifcation when one of the congregation came to me afterwards and said that they did not realise such beautifull music existed.
How will any one know such beautifull music exists if they are not exposed to it.
Music was hijacked in the fifties by commercial interests who have since sold it like you would sell a pound of butter or soap powder.
My children were exposed to "classical music in our home and at one time attended a concert in which myself and my wife sang in The Saint Matthew Passion.
The "kids" still remember it and for weeks were huming or singing parts of it.
Please do not think I am knocking any artist
who is a member of this forum I enjoy a lot of your contributions.

Cousin Ken

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#141092 - 08/20/06 03:54 AM Re: 1 philosophical question re "playing"
Carrie-uk Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 168
Loc: England
Not trying to be picky, but does anyone else have trouble reading long posts with no paragraph breaks? When I'm browsing the forum and I see a huge chunk of typing with no line or paragraph breaks, I tend to just scan through it too quickly.

Maybe it's just me!

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