Rather than hijack keysvocalssax's (who shall heretofore be known as KVS)thread, I'd like to hear your opinions on this question. DO WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO EDUCATE OUR AUDIENCES? we live in a time when Mp3's have virtually replaced the higher quality CD, and Ashly Simpson makes way more money than Diana Krall and a backup offensive lineman in the NFL probably makes more than the average professional ballerina or 1st chair in a major symphony orchestra. The public has shown that it's more than willing to accept total crap if that is what's offered. Someone said in the other post that it's okay to stand on your head and whistle (or something like that) as long as it entertains your audience. Do we really feel that way about the performance of the music we purport to love so much? Is it really ok to sacrifice every vestige of musical integrity (such as knowing how to play; aka "knowing your craft", aka "professionalism") for the sake of entertainment? Yes, we are in the entertainment business, BUT, the vehicle we have chosen (to entertain with) is MUSIC. If "keeping them up on the dance floor" is the only thing that is important, then they'd be much better off, IMO, with a good DJ; they do a much better job of this. There is not much to add to the subject of "cheating". It was subjective before, it's subjective now, and it will be subjective in the future. Big, fast, overpowered cars are nice to drive or ride in but they pollute our planet. Music technolgy is also nice, but it has polluted our pool of talented and trained musicians with a generation of button-pushers. So yes, the public will accect garbage; but does that mean we have to be so willing to accomodate them? Don't we have an obligation to help elevate public taste. The public likes what is easy, that's why MacDonald's is sucessful, that's why no-name, no talent rock bands can make millions. That's what spawns Punk, and Trance, and Hip-Hop, and .....Schlager . And by the way, for those that use SMF's on a gig (especially exclusively) so as to sound more like the record; use a CD player, for crying out loud, it IS the record (and a lot cheaper).

Peace,

chas

I don't know how this question can be answered. Diana Krall is out there. How can we make people listen to and like her? If you make it your mission to educate your audience, what is the best way you would propose doing that and still have an audience? Even in the hayday of jazz back in the 30's, one of the biggest songs was a tisket a tasket. Back when Bach was composing, there were probably crap songs then too, only they didn't survive because the crap musicians didn't work for churches or kings, and they didn't have sound recorder on their piece of crap computer with their piece of crap microphone which could be put up on a piece of crap internet site.

The majority population cannot discern fake from real when it comes to average music. I believe the wanna-be musician has a tough road vs DJ'S and SMF's. When you step up to that professional level and have a pocket of admirers, who cares - by that time, you should just enjoy the fruits of your talent and play for pure fullfillment.

I agree with all that has been said.

Cousin Ken

making music isnt about educating people unless thats what your priority is. For me music is its own reward however it is made or created or played. Iam in the fortunate position of playing music just because i like doing that. I play for choirs and congregations but that takes up less than 10% of my playing time. I mostly play for myself the other 90%. For those of you that play for a living, your duty is to make a living and provide for yourtselves and your families just like any working person and hopefully enjoy doing that. If you can achieve that by playing keys "live" or "semi live" with the use of auto accompaniment or midi files, cd etc then so be it. Doesnt matter a jot how you doit so long as people are prepared to pay you to do it. If you are a great musician but cant find anyone willing topay to hear you play then your talent as great as it may be is as useful as a hole in the head. If you play foryourself then thats a different matter becuase like i said music is its own reward. But if you do this for a living , make no mistake , you need tofind a way to get paid or you will starve.

The measure of success for any performer/vocalist/musician/entertainer comes from their audiences.

There are loads of great musicians in the world, many of which have mastered their instruments to the point where every note is meticulously played to perfection. And, while those individuals should be recognized for their achievements, the vast majority of them will never make a living in the world of music.

They are not entertainers--they are not performers--they are not vocalist--they cannot read an audience--but they can really play well.

There is a small, select, group of individuals that can boast a very high levles of achievement in all the above categories. There is a larger contingent that fits into at least two or three of the above categories. If you fit into just one category, you can still be successful, but only if you are surrounded by others that have mastered the other categories.

Liberache will always be remembered as a great entertainer! He was an outstanding musician. But, if he would have just played the piano without saying a word he would have likely starved to death. Without his extravagent wardrobe, rhinestones and accompaning musicians and singers there would not have been a show.

This is show biz folks, and this is an arranger keyboard forum.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Merriam-Webster Dictionary says:


Entertain verb:
2 : to show hospitality to
4 : to provide entertainment for
- en·ter·tain·er noun


Entertainment (noun): 3 a : amusement or diversion provided especially by performers b : something diverting or engaging: as (1) : a public performance (2) : a usually light comic or adventure novel


Musician noun:
a composer, conductor, or performer of music; especially : INSTRUMENTALIST

Gary, I know that you are one of the more respected members of this forum, and deservedly so; however, much of what you said in your post, however true, makes me very sad. But first let me clear up one misconception (about me). Gary's statement "this is an arranger forum", implies that I disapprove of arranger keyboards. I don't, else why would I own two of them (three if you count my long retired I5M). I must truly say that I don't really approve of them for "live" performance but can see the practicality of using them in OMB situations. Since I use mine for compositional assistance and with my work with aspiring young songwriters, for me it's an invaluable tool. I'm sure OMB performers will say the same and I agree with them. What I object to, is using technology as a crutch so as not to have to learn your craft; using smoke and mirrors to convince an audience that they are listening to an ARTIST perform....well, in fact, they are....it's just not YOU. It's those trained and talented musicians that created those styles and midi files that's "keeping them up on the dance floor". What saddens me most though, is the attitude that "entertainment" is intrinsicly more valuable than the art form itself. It saddens me to hear excuses like "make a living and support his family"; but the fact is, there are many ways to make a living and support your family, you CHOSE music. Doesn't that require that you learn your craft (as much as a cabinet maker or master chef). There is story of a not very talented opera singer who was scheduled to play at a very famous opera house in Italy. Although nervous about how he would be received by such a sophisticated audience, he bravely sang his aria and was amazed by a standing ovation. After the third encore, he humbly begged off doing another when a man in the audience stood up, waved his fist in the air and said, "YOU'LL SING IT....UNTIL YOU LEARN IT". Hey, all audiences aren't idiots...better prepare for the day when you run into one.

chas

Chas: Well said. I TOTALLY concur with your sentiments. I could not have 'said it' any better myself. thanks. - Scott

I think too much disecting is what creates these debates and arguments and I think there was a time in all formerly trained musicians/instrumentalists/vocalists lives where they resented the fact that various artificial forms were introduced into the performance creating shortcuts to the final product when they have taken so much time and effort to develop themselves.

QUOTE: What I object to, is using technology as a crutch so as not to have to learn your craft; using smoke and mirrors to convince an audience that they are listening to an ARTIST perform...

REPLY: Much of my personal time is used in going out and listening to live music, enjoying all kinds of styles.
The audiences don't want to be convinced that they are listening to an ARTIST, if they did, what would stop them from taking this mentality 1 step further, saying "You are not really Elvis, so why are you trying to play and sing his song, go back to acting school, you stink"?

Quote:
What saddens me most though, is the attitude that "entertainment" is intrinsicly more valuable than the art form itself.

REPLY: It isn't, in some settings or circles of interests. If the focus at a musical event is a setting where everyone take their seats, quiet, the performance is starting, "can I have everyone's attention"....etc, the public came in to hear a performance by an artist and thats what they expect.

It saddens me to hear excuses like "make a living and support his family"; but the fact is, there are many ways to make a living and support your family, you CHOSE music. Doesn't that require that you learn your craft...

REPLY: Again, in some circles, specific circumstances, yes. And many learn there craft extremely well but every situation they participates in does not call for it to be excercised

QUOTE: There is story of a not very talented opera singer who was scheduled to play at a very famous opera house in Italy. Although nervous about how he would be received by such a sophisticated audience, he bravely sang his aria and was amazed by a standing ovation. After the third encore, he humbly begged off doing another when a man in the audience stood up, waved his fist in the air and said, "YOU'LL SING IT....UNTIL YOU LEARN IT".

REPLY: Thats a specific setting that takes on a specific requirement for the audience, requires/demands that you be at the top, a master of that craft.

QUOTE: Hey, all audiences aren't idiots...better prepare for the day when you run into one.

REPLY: Most likely will not run into an audience like that, maybe an individual or 2. And many here are prepared to where they break away from what the majority there are into, and perform something for that individual or 2. For instance, I may play Tico Tico using 64ths instead of more common 32nds.
Then quickly get back to what the majority are there for, before they walk out and the employer throws me out.

So many different venues with so many different audiences and so many different expectations.
Find the type you like which corresponds to your expectations and have fun.


PS
Well said, good points Spalding and Gary.



[This message has been edited by MrEd (edited 08-19-2006).]