Ive been listening to some of these styles although most sound ok.....Im starting to feel that they are becoming to fluffy defeating the purpose of sounding like a REAL LIVE BAND because the KB is playing more then I am....[I hope Im making sense?]...when your sitting there playing by yourself & people look and listen in disbelief......I somtimes get an awkward feeling as if people are saying to themselves hes not really playing....many time I just simplify the style parts and weed out the fluff to make simpler and more like a band would sound vs the full Philamonic orchestra....after while this can make many players rely on styles more then the talent of playing.Id really like to be look upon as a pro musician first not a suedo DJ/Computer Controller/who is he kidding artist? Whats your thoughts?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-07-2005).]

I think your correct but like you said, the main parts like solos or trills or what have you that stick out seem to grab the attention.

Also maybe 5 to 10 years ago is was like he can't be doing all that, but now I think it's expecting with the way technology has gone

You're right, DNJ. My answer is to simplify...eliminate the busy parts and play "live" as much as I can. Halfthe time I use drums only and play left hand on a Hammond XB-2.

"old school" Russ

If you can't "sound like the record",,,people think you are not very good...Sound like the record,,,and you are the "best they ever heard".....If you use No sequences , you will not get the top jobs[clubs]..If you use arrangers properly, you have a shot...If you rely exclusively playing left hand bass and comping with the right hand...you better be in an easy going venue, because you can't hold the job like we did 20 years ago..

We have the technology...use it..MP3's sequences or arrangers..

What Fran said!

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Sound Like the record........and to the audience your just a DJ..
simplify the fluffy Styles, & the SMF's...play & sing your heart out on top of that, do it your way, but DO IT GOOD ! ...& you & your audience will love what your doin, somtimes less is more

Busy styles can really get in the way of playing. They start to sound un-natural after a while. Eventually you feel like you're competing with your own keyboard.

squeak

You guys are so right and unfortunately it's more along the lines of how you can incorporate the technology and sounding like the record as to a couple of years ago when it really mattered how good a musician you are.

I have 2 gigs this weekend and I think at least half of the 1/3 will be midi files, 1/3 will be MP3's and the other third will be arranger.

That is what I love about my Korg PA-80 as opposed to my Tyros. Imho the Korg sounds much like 4 musicians just sitting around playing/jamming.

Korgs drums sound acoustically realistic. To me Korg leaves in a little roughage. The Yamaha sound is highly polished or bordering on overproduced. But that's just my opinion.

Regards,

Danny

[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 10-07-2005).]

Danny I have to agree with you there .....
the SD-1 & Korg arranger units really give that live sound...gives you as a player a different feeling like the boyz in the band are right next to ya



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-07-2005).]

No MP-3's, no sequences, and I make the top money in this area. Work more than I'd really like to. But, that's my choice. I LIKE to play left handed bass, and have a base of enough people to keep me working who choose my style and comment negatively about the "recorded" backgrounds they say is being promoted as "live" music.

If what you do works, good for you! I just choose to do it my way, and I "ain't missing any meals", even though I need to.

I intentionally don't use sequences or MP-3's because, to me, that's not really playing. But, I don't think that going that route is wrong...it's just not for me.

The one good thing about getting old is that
you can be as stubborn and hard headed as hell and theire not much anyone can do about it.

Of course, a lot depends upon whether the venue is a music or entertainment one.

I play in restaurants and for corporate events...usually quiet management atended affairs. I'm not an entertainer at all. If I were, I'd probably change my approach and use whatever tools are available.

Whatever floats your boat...

Russ

If you can play properly there's no need to use MP3 or other pre recorded backing.
I play in 2 top clubs and have been resident at both for 5 years now.
I appreciate that we should embrace technology and I do myself. I use Cubase etc for producing backing tracks for many singers and bands on the pro circuit but I will only use my backing to show off at the beginning and end of my nights playing.
I play live to singers who come up to me and give me any piece of music that they want to sing to. I don't know what they are giving me so I have to rely on the score which is often wrong but you can improvise if you don't know the song or if you do know it, you simply play and accompany them. I also transpose in my head which I find easy rather than using the transpose keys on my G1000 and SD1. I prefer quality styles and sounds anyday over all these fancy gadgets such as MP3 playback. I also refuse to play to any midi file at all. I have yet to hear one that sounds half decent by any manufacturer. Each to their own, it would be a boring music world if we all adopted the same styles of playing and taste lol - Keep it live as much as possible

To be honest....I saw some pretty unexpected replies in this thread.

Musicians that mainly use MIDI's and/or MP3's while performing or recording demosongs state 'styles are more playing then myself' ?

I'm sorry, but this is extremely hard to explain.

I myself NEVER used/will use SMF's or MP3's on stage because they make me feel 'stupid' (non musician but DJ).

Russ and Craig put it right.

To answer Dnj's topic :
Tyros2 styles in good hands (controlled by a musician) are not too fluffy/unbelievable to an audience. There is soo much room to show you are a musician.

Using MIDI-files and MP3's shows that the 'musician' cannot play that specific song(s), not even with an arranger

I have read the comments with interest.
I myself am not a keyboard player of any worth and would not be able to perform my vocals without my trusty PSR3000 using quite unashamably other accomplished musicians midi files which have not been copyrighted.
I am 71 year old carer of a 32 year old son who is wheelchair bound and find it difficult to get with others to reherse etc.
My efforts seem to be well received by the older generation.
My point is it depends on our circumstances,ability and drive on the way you chose perform.
True artists in my opinion are those whose efforts are appreciated by his audience and they show it.

Cousin Ken

I NEVER allow the arranger kb to 'cover for' or 'compete' with what I'm playing. This is the diffence between a karaoke entertainer and a musician-entertainer. Karaoke entertainment is usually FREE at most watering holes, but LIVE 'keyboard musician' entertainment requires a lot more, and audiences are eager & willing to pay for it.

Donny, as you know (and others here as well), I've been advocating less reliance on backing tracks & auto-accomp for years here. When I perform on my Tyros, I AWAYS keep the auto accomp arrangement at a bare minimum, allowing the stage FOCUS to remain on MY PLAYING & VOCALS. Anything else imo comes off canned . It's exactly THIS reason that I've DECIDED to upgrade to Tyros2.

Tyros2 allows you to sound even more convincingly realistic when playing the keyboard LIVE! with the 'new' Super Articulation Voices. As far as auto accomp goes, I've found not only Yamaha, but Ketron & Korg, ALL to be equally guilty including more auto accomp parts in their styles than always necessary, but I suppose it's easier to mute, or eliminate the extra parts, then for other people to add it because they think they need it to cover for their deficient playing.

Ok, I've now auditioned & played LIVE, just about every current top of line arranger out there (except Tyros2). Since I already own a Tyros1 and know that Tyros2 is not actually a totally brand new keyboard, but basically a Tyros1 with the added enhancement of 'Super Articulation' Voices and other beneficial new feature & enhancements, I believe I've got enough first hand information now to decide between the current leading arr boards: Ketron SD1, Tyros2, KorgPA1X/Pro, and Roland G70. I'm convinced that the Tyros2's styles & sounds are BEST suited for both my STYLE of music & performance style. Obviously, choosing a keyboard really all comes down to personal taste. Coming from a guy with 'discerning' taste Tyros1, & now Tyros2 REMAIN my arranger keyboard of choice.



I agree with Craig and take the same keyboarad performance approach & philosophy. Interestingly enough, I too tend to reserve songs most heavy with auto accomp arrangements, for my opening & closing numbers, and keep the rest of the show to showcasinh my vocals & keyboard playing, with a minimalist rhythm section approach . . . primarily bass, drums & one solo section instrument. The audience expects live musicianship (and rightly so). The auto accomp must only serve as window dressing.

I recommend LISTENING to the demos of fellow Synthzone Members & deciding which ones you find most satisfying muscially. I'm easily able to tell which ones soley rely on commercially sequenced MIDI backing tracks, and which one's include live keyboard playing. Commercial backing tracks (imo) remain a poor imitation of the original band on the record. Even though an auto accompaniment style may not sound exactly (or even close) to the same as the original record, it allows for a more spontaneous (exciting) keyboard performance, including artistic freedom, which (at least with my audiences), always brings the most applause. As arranger keyboard owners, we all have a keyboard (with KEYS) at our diposal onstage, so I encourage everyone to actually play them.

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 10-07-2005).]

I've had that feeling myself while playing my PSR 3k. I do know one thing and that's the 3k has opened doors to venues that just playing piano solo would have not opened.

I've grown to rely on the styles of the 3K and it makes playing easier than just piano solo. One thing an arranger will not do for me is let me play expressively like I can when playing piano solo.

I play mostly background at cocktail hours and one hour shows at retirement homes. I'm not playing dance venues where I absolutely have to have a full band sound, so that I can sound like the recording or close to it.

On a couple of recent gigs both cocktail hours at retirement homes I found some interesting things going on. At the first I set up my 3k and the plan was to alternate between the 3k and a nicely maintained Young Chang 6 foot grand. I opened with a couple of tunes on the 3K, but when I switched to the grand I noticed audience reaction was more positive, so much so that I finished the hour at the grand piano. After the performance I got more than the usual we enjoyed your playing. Seems as though the belivabiltiy factor played into the whole gig. It's probably one of the limited number of venues where this would work well.

Fast forward to late this afternoon at a retirment home that has a Suzuki Digital Mini Grand http://www.suzukipianos.com/gp-3/

This instrument imho sounds fair as an arranger. After playing a 3k on gigs and a CVP 307 at home the Suzuki didn't sound very pleasing to my ears, but it does sound more like

Bottom line was that at these 2 gigs less fluff was better, but I still prefer the 3k for gigging.



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 10-07-2005).]

I wouldn't say that the way I do it is the best but since I play fulltime in a highly competitive market, and I just left a full room and a grateful employer behind about an hour and a half ago...

First, I think if you present yourself as a keyboard player and you want to establish yourself with an audience then you should stop all the gadgets now and then and just play something meaningful. The ultimate test of a keyboard player is the naked piano... turn off everything but the piano and nail something that eliminates any and all doubt in the room. Having proved the point to them and yourself, from there you can do whatever you want... and often the more farout the better. I make it a point to revisit the piano often.

Second, it is the greatest time ever to be a keyboardist... I got keyboarding freinds that didn't make into the 21st century. And in their memory, and for our mutual amusement, I find it necessary to be as modern a musician as humanly possible. MIDI files, MP3 files, loops, samples, softsynths, laptop computers, arrangers... I really don't see any reason (oh, I use that too) to limit myself from any technology I can utilize and afford. I can't imagine what the great composers and performers of the past wouldn't have given for a fraction of our potential.

Yeah I got freinds today that wouldn't touch a MIDI file with a ten foot pole... that's cool... better that they don't do a sloppy job of it and spoil the market.

Well, I can properly.... guitar.............
But the Tyros allows me to do sing-alongs and some backing. I also use the Onstage performer, and I play midi and wave files.
I get great response and have lot's of jobs. This is what I have learnt: Playing ability/Skill: 40%
Repertoire to suit the customer:40%
Professionalism/entertainer factor: 20%
My .02$ on an earlier beat up discussion.

Reading some thoughts here and getting the overall frowning/bravado/purists attitude about using other means available to us to produce music in public or at home, either with WAV, Mp3, SMF, Arranger Styles, PC programs, which BTW all to me are in the same family NO MATTER how YOU want to Twist it in words .....your talent is your talent, these are our tools of the trade, "you cannot build a house with only one tool" some can play great but cant sing, others can sing but cant play well, some can do neither but can entertaine an audience very well,. The layman & audiences cannot be expected to fully absorb a fast changing technological medium that they are unfamiliar with.....they hear the end result which is our music.........they either embrace it or disguard it........your audience will make you or break you no matter how YOU think of what YOUR doing is right or wrong......this is a people business, & they must always be satisfied 100%
Close your Eyes, "LISTEN", & the end result will determine whats right & unfortunatly whats wrong no matter HOW ITS ACCOMPLISHED

Who in their right mind would pay around £2500 for a new Tyros 2 or another top end arranger just to play MP3, WAV or Midi files? You'd have to be completely mad or you simply have money to burn.

surely craig, you paid a similar price for the mediastation?

Perhaps I don't have the same expertise in this area as some of the guys here because I don't play out as often, nor do I depend on it for a living. I'll generally avoid parties and other similar venues where I'll be expected mainly or only to perform songs that sound like the original artist's recordings, unless it's for a friend or coworker. It isn't that I can't do this, it just isn't my "thing".

I will do some standards as close to the original as possible, but I also like being able to put my own spin, and I find that doing some of this works well for me in the venues I do play. I also try to mix in a good bit of acoustic stuff, just the actual instrument that I'm playing and my voice, and this usually gets a very nice reaction. I also like the challenge of making stuff up on the fly, so occasionally I might make something out of something else, and if I can add a little humor, that seems to work well too.

Donny, I kind of agree with your last thought. If you ain't actually playing it, then I don't care how you produce it or what spin anyone puts on it, it's all pretty much the same to me, whether it be a karaoke file, arranger backing, mp3 file, midifile, arpeggio, etc. There isn't anything wrong with any of that and if it's working for you that's all that counts, but I can't take it very serious when someone is saying in a critical way that one is better than the other. As for me, I have no problem using an arranger, arp pattern, or midi file for backing when I need it. I am just trying to pare down a little the amount of time that I actually do need these things, and instead focus on my actual singing, playing and entertainment abilities. The results have been good. I think it's a reflection from within that shows to the audience, because whether I want to embrace it, and accept it or not, I just feel more comfortable about my own performance when it's just me and my hands, although I also like the duet gigs as well, with a talented musician and / or vocalist.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 10-08-2005).]

I find that it depends "who and what" you are playing for. I use minimum arranger backgrounds for an "educated sophisticated" clientele. When ya got the people that wanna let loose then more backing helps.

Arranger artists really are incredible musicians from dealing with all this diversity and constantly evaluating what they are doing and just analyzing all of the backgrounds from all the different versions and brands of these boards.

That alone is an education unique to this kind of artist.

Referring to me?

what a crock of sh*t....this thread is just one big pissing contest between you all...for f*cks sake getting comments from some like ..."I wont play midifiles or mp3 files coz that means im not a musician"...what do you think you are playing when you play the arranger keyboards??? MIDI FILES.... pre-recorded patterns of MIDI FILES...look at MOST topline bands (yes full bands) that are touring, say with Madonna or whoever else...they ALL use midi/mp3/wav files in their shows....geez, two/three piece bands out here are a dime a dozen, ALL use MIDI backing tracks, they may be comprised of gtr bass and brass and have drums/bass/ keys in the midi and play the rest live, or keys drums and gtr and have the bass/other in the midi file...thats just one example....From this thread we are to assume that if you are playing full keyboard/synths/organs or playing your guitar/bass or a drummer and using midi files/arranger patterns for the other compnents of the music you are NOT a musician....PLEASE give me a break!!!! you blokes really need to get a grip.

Manic...you make very valid points for sure. We're all making Music & thats a good thing no matter how you do it.
I feel your pain

Maniac, I don't believe anybody who responded to this thread (including myself) said or infered that.

I have no problem with keyboard players playing along to midi files if they 'really' are "playing FULL keyboard", as you pointed out to add. What troubles me are performers who appear on stage with a keyboard, yet only pretend like they're playing it, while only singing along to commercial midi files instead. I find it troubling to see a performer merely holding a single single finger on the keyboard, yet hear full keyboard parts being played on the midi/karaoke backup. Call me a musical snob, but these guys are not MUSICIANS, but singer-entertainers, and DECEPTIVE ones at that. The dictionary's definition of a musician is: someone who plays a musical instrument. I don't consider a CD/MP3, or MIDI File playing device, a musical instrument.

Maniac, though I certainly advocate free speech, I nonetheless feel the profane language (albeit with added expletives) you used was rather uneccessary. I'm sure you could have chosen other more appropriate words to express your frustration.

Scott

Scott, I agree with most what you say. Language aside though, I do agree with and understand manic's frustration. I think CraigUK came across rather ignorant. As if playing a midi pattern is more musically than playing full piano or guitar or flute or any other instruments over any media file. And his comment on what Synthzoners might spend their money on for use for their backing, confirms his attitude.
Anyway I thought 'crock of sh*t' was kind of funny.........

[This message has been edited by royandreno (edited 10-09-2005).]

What we all have to remember is that whether we use arranger styles, midis, mp3s or waves on a keyboard we are dealing with electronic music. That is to say we are playing a keyboard that is trying to duplicate other instrument sounds. The audience knows that there is some type of electronic device that is allowing them to hear lots of instruments (regardless of how real the instrument sound) even though on stage there is just a keyboard player.

There are some music purists who think that if you are not playing the actual instrument (saxophone for example) but instead playing a keyboard with a saxophone sound you are not a “real musician.”

There are others who believe that if you are pressing one key on the keyboard or a chord and getting the sound like a band, that is not acceptable to them. The same is said for those who play over a midi file, mp3 or wave.
I guess every one has there limit to which they feel comfortable taking the concept of electronic music and auto playing by some type of electronic musical device.


The fact is we live in a world where economics, logistics and the market determine what gets used and not used on a gig.

Ideally, I would like to gig with a band and have the instruments that I want playing with me. However, the cost of having a full band against the pay that is received from a gig makes it not possible. Also, to find quality musicians who can adjust to any type of music and is competent at all musical levels (rhythm, play in any key …) with out an enormous amount of time practicing is hard to find.

So some of us opt for fewer people in a band, (2, 3 or 4) or do it by our selves. Because we know what the audience want we try to compensate for what the performance dose not have live with electronic representations. That is where we get in to midis, arranger styles mp3s and waves.

The trick is to incorporate what is necessary while making it sound live and exciting for the audience. After all, it is the audience that determine what we do as performers not our musicianship.


The other reality is that in order to survive, you can not be a musician alone, but you must be an entertainer. Some do not have a problem with that.

I think that for some people, the more they do to become a better entertainer for the audience; they slowly drift away from the musicianship part of things.

I think each of us must know what we are comfortable doing and do it to the best of our abilities and not try to belittle others because they are not doing the same as us.

Sure there are many valid points mentioned here, but like other Tyros-2 (potential)buyers here, I too felt some irritation coming up at the topic start. ("Tyros2 styles too Fluffy ?")

It's obvious some people do not (want to) like Tyros2 styles or sounds.... even before they really have heard/touched or played or used it....

This site is made up of keyboardists from all the major companies,now some will dig in their heals and stick with what they have believing its the best for them,and thats fine ,then there are those that change what they have for whatever new comes out. The point i am making is this ,if this was say a yamaha site or roland site or whatever the discussions would be more limited,but here you get a more wider variables ,Nigel has done an excellent job with this site bringing us all together,and i am sure a lot more has been learned,because normally YOU /ME would be going to sites that have our make of board only, and so would miss out on the valuable info from the more experienced members,at the end of the day maybe you will buy ,maybe you won,t, but at least you have had the chance to read others views, and so make a more detailed choice.as they say Forwarned is Forearmed.

Use all the tools that are available to you to entertain the audience.

If we did things the old way I could have typed this reply on my old Remingtom typewriter, take it to the local print shop. The printer would not use a computer, but manually set all the type (because using a computer would not really make him a real printer). I would then ride my bicycle down to the post office and mail out 5000 copies to each of you.

A giant step backwords!

Donny,

Out of curiousity you stated in another thread that you are ordering a Ketron Midjay -which also has all the fluff+.

"I was impressed with all the MULTI functions & features of this little wonderbox for sure....
it can be used in so many kool ways its beyond belief if your creative....playing great LIVE SOUNDING styles like an arranger KB, awesome SD-1 sounds, mp3's, wav's, SFX, SMF, and sing thru it too w/efx" I'll be ordering mine soon"


Regards,

Jerry

Fast forward to late this afternoon at a retirment home that has a Suzuki Digital Mini Grand http://www.suzukipianos.com/gp-3/

This instrument imho sounds fair as an arranger. After playing a 3k on gigs and a CVP 307 at home the Suzuki didn't sound very pleasing to my ears, but it does sound more like

I played the upright version of this monster at BJ's Wholesale Club a few days ago--what a piece of crap! The wood finish is superb, the keys are fully weighted piano keys, and everything looked beautiful. The only sounds that were somewhat realistic were the piano--al the other were just awful. Additionally, there was a full, half-second delay in accompaniment when chord changes were made. The price tag at BJ's was $1899, but the best thing anyone could have done with this is remove the keyboard from the frame and put in a good arranger. Beautiful piece of furniture--lousy instrument!

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

nardoni2002 I didn't purchase a Mediastation to play MP3/WAV/Midi I got this because I was fedup of going with the big brand names who release keyboards left right and centre. If I wanted to play MP3 I would record them in Cubase or Pro Tools and stick them onto a mini disc connected to my mixing desk.
The likes or Roland Korg and Yamaha are all well but the technology isn't quite up there with the likes of Lionstracs and Wersi. Can they play Giga aounds or VST plugins - no. I'm happy with my SD1 and G1000 so just wanted something different rather than the same run run of the mill styles and GM/GS sounds.
I wasn't picking anyone out when I said have to be mad to pay well over £2000 just to play midi files either. I think this topic has got a bit out of hand lol

Correction, I postd "Tyros 2 & Other Kb's"

craig, i,m not critisizing,i was only saying that you would have paid a similar price for your mediastation. I am only a home player who likes things easy,very easy,and the yammies do that,i think that mediastation will be the way to go in the near future for a lot of experienced musicians,once they become more established, maybe as time goes on these will be even more easier to operate. Its these small companies (like liontracs)that keep the big manufacturers on their toes,thats competition.

Im an Pro "Multi Task" Entertainer, I use everthing and anything to accompish this successfully on stage,I sing, play syles on an arranger KB, w/smf's,mp3,wav, etc.. to make people dance and enjoy my act every night,.& Im proud of it. I'm playing since Im 7yrs old, playing shows with bands & solo work since Im 15 yrs old, Im now 53 so something must be going right all these years....! I've seen musicians & tons of different gear come & go & Im still here regardless
The Ketron Midjay will be another wonderful piece of gear that will help me emensly in doing this for sure, to help me make a living & support my family...the "Fluff" Im refering to is in the parts of the styles on many KB's,. People rely entirely to much on the "FLUFF" .....taking some of it out and showing your audience your REALLY PLAY opens up a better crossfade between you and the people listening so they can access your multitalentizm on stage creating in their mind that you are "THE TOTAL PACKAGE" & not some over glorified "Fluffernutter".......I didn't want to start a war with this thread but I guess it definitly hit a sore spot judging by the replies.... we'll see where it leads and what we can learn from it & from each other?



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-09-2005).]

Well I've read all the posts on this and here's what I think. First we all have different needs and wants. We also all have different levels of playing ability. Some of us are very polished at playing the keys and some of us are not. Some of use can use an arranger and do EVERYTHING from scratch. Some of us cannot. Does this make one way better than the other. I would have to say no.

Keep in mind also that what an arranger is and does, and how it can help some musicians who aren't as polished off in some areas. A few good examples are playing and recording drums on a keyboard. To some of us that's easy, and to others it's a very difficult task to accomplish. The arranger helps those who are weaker in some areas. Is it cheating? In a way yes, but so the hell what. Musicians have been using (helping aids) for years. Look at someone like Ashley Simpson. Remember her big on stage boo boo????

Bottom line we all have different needs and abilities, but we share the most important part of picture, and that's the love for playing music. It doesn't matter what you use to play it. As long as it works for you.

Squeak

Hi all,
I don't play for others/parties/money etc, and I also don't think that someone pushing some buttons on an MP3 player and then singing along is a musician.

I read responses which (in my opinion) are divided into "profession" guys ("...I do whatever pleases/will please the audience....") and "artistic" guys ("....music in an art, I won't use any artificial backing or mp3's, everything is pure me, etc etc...".

Everyone here is a musician. The thing is to do whatever you can to please the particular group of people you are reffering to. Be adaptive. It doesn't matter if my sofa is built by a dextrous craftsman aided by 12 ethereal virgins and took 1 month to make, or it took maybe 3-4 hours to be built by murderous ex-convicts.

My back resting well sitting on the sofa I paid for, is all that matters.

If you can play an instrument you are a musician, if you can play it well you are a good musician, but if you make me happy doing that, I won't ask/care if you used mp3's or MIDI backing or Satan's own choir, I will simply ask for a phone number to invite you again, or refer you to others.

Just play to please the audience (every audience is different, and the audience's reactions will please you in return.

My 2 drachmas,
Theodore

Let me add my 2cents worth here please....
I'm 65 years old and am teaching myself to play keyboard.....I am not a "MUSICIAN" I'm a professional singer...My voice is my instrument and has been for close to 50 years recording my first record in 1958....
I should have studied an instrument but didn't so I have to depend on other "MUSICIANS" to supply musical backing for my songs....I've sang with "BIG BANDS" with as many as 18 musicians and I've sang with as few as 3 in a Trio...the audience
expects to hear music behind a singer, he can't do it all alone, if you can't get musicians to play the music for what ever reason, booze, drugs or attitude...in my case, there are no musicians down here in this part of sunny Mexico, so what is left for me to do, I use what ever I can to entertain my audience...and YES, sometimes it means using KARAOKE tracks, be it Midi files cd's mp3's or my Tyros or my PSR3000
at least, all the musicians start on time and in the same key.....now some may say that I'm a cheat for using my Tyros as an over priced karaoke machine (I can afford it) or mp3 player or what ever, as Squeak said...there are all levels of musicianship mine is in the beginning stages, however one day, I hope to be able to play like Scott Yee or better if possible but in the mean time, I will use every means available to me to get the job done...that is pleasing my audience....I've
stated in many other posts that I wish I could play and I envy all that can, however,
don't belittle me or others like me that don't have the musical skills to "DO IT ON MY OWN" and have had to travel a different road to get to the same place, "PLEASING THE AUDIENCE" don't be snobbish or critical of us that don't have the musical schooling or the years of hands on playing
that the rest of us don't....that is one reason I bought the guitar for my son and the keyboard for my daughter, I want them to have what I didn't have when I was their age, I pray it makes a difference in their
young lives....I'm on this forum to learn and I have learned a lot, don't chase me away because I don't measure up to your standards, especially if you have never heard or seen me perform to an audience...I respect everyone here and hope for the same,
but if anyone is offended by this post, sorry, it was not my intention...Make Music anyway you know how...any kind of music and
learn as you go...who knows, some day some of you may even be as good as me....hehehe
Tony Rome

Tony. First of all , I'm touched by your compliment, but the fact remains, whatever keyboard skills I have now, pale in comparison to a lot of more accomplished pro keyboard artists out there. The fact is, that there is and will always be someone else out there that can play better (and worse) than ourselves. It's important we measure our musical progress against our own stick, less become endlessly frustrated. With desire and commitment, and some blood, sweat, and tears along the way, you'll be playing perhaps better than I me, sooner than you think. Don't worry about where you're at keyboard playing wise now.

The bottom line, we all have to put in our dues. There's really no short cut, so enjoy the ride.

Tony, showcase your current musical strength (vocals) and go ahead & utilize backing tracks, but MOST IMPORTANTLY, always be honest with your audience and never deceive them by pretending to be playing any of the midi/MP3 backup track parts.

I recommend you start keyboard performing (on stage) playing something relatively simple (in auto accomp mode & with a fairly simple style). I can guarantee your audiences will love & appreciate whatever you play, delivered honestly, straight from your heart & soul. There is much beauty in simplicity. - Scott

Folks,

I think that using backing tracks is fine in a performance (be it MP3s or MIDI files or auto-accompaniment styles) as long as you use it to enhance your own performance, and do not mislead the audience. We all use technology because it is a more efficient, affordable, and for some of us the only way to have accompaniment of any reasonable quality.

Once I met a performer in a hotel I stayed at - he was playing the grand piano in the lounge, accompaied by the mini-disk player through a Roland KB500 amp. Even though his performance amounted to an instrumental karaoke, he was a wonderful keyboard player, and the recorded backing tracks were primarily emphasizing his own musical skills. I think this is perfectly acceptable. On the other hand, I had been to a restaurant, which advertized a live band - the band was indeed there, but during at least a couple of songs I had caught them standing there only pretending to play, with the music coming from the record - that is real cheating in my book. I would have been fine with them playing the records if they had played them during the break, or at least had not pretended to be playing themselves.

Back to the original topic of this thread - I think each one has to be the judge of his/hers audience. While I may be accustomed to hearing a recording of a song with the big band background, someone performing the same song with a smaller style (e.g. the one emulating a 3-4 piece combo) will probably sound more original. I don't believe one has to sound exactly like the record - if the client wanted that, it would be cheaper for them to play a record than to hire me. On the other hand, I don't want to butcher the song in the name of originality either.

To me personally, playing along with the arranger styles allows to vary and adjust the performance to the needs of the situation - the type of the venue, the mood of the audience, etc., which is why I don't use MIDIs or MP3 files. Besides, my typical audiences usually include a couple of skeptics, who say that I am not actually playing, and my music is instead recorded - having a computer with me would only further their suspicions. However, if you feel you can use a laptop (or an Ipod), so much the better.

That's my $0.02

Regards

Amen to that, Tony Rome.

"'Tain't what ya do, it's the way that ya do it".

Oh, just saw your posts, ScottYee and AlexK - amen to that, too.

[This message has been edited by renig (edited 10-09-2005).]

Following this thread, I think most of us agree on this subject. It is just the wrong way things come across sometimes.

I resisted a laptop for a long time, but fellow zoners here convinced me. Also you see them used with big acts from pop to jazz today, so it's a normal thing these days

Bravo Tony.
Singers in most cases have always relied on others to accompany them.
There is always the exception of course and I take my hat off to those who can sing and play a musical instrument.
So what is wrong in using modern technology for this purpose.
I always acknowledge that the accompany is some others work.
If I had the money and the wifes permission I would buy the Tryos 2 to avail of its thrilling sounds for background music.

Cousin Ken

Bravo Tony.
Singers in most cases have always relied on others to accompany them.
There is always the exception of course and I take my hat off to those who can sing and play a musical instrument.
So what is wrong in using modern technology for this purpose.
I always acknowledge that the accompany is some others work.
If I had the money and the wifes permission I would buy the Tryos 2 to avail of its thrilling sounds for background music.

Cousin Ken

Folks...

I certainly didn't mean to sound elitist or to imply that using MP-3's or whatever is wrong or "faking it".

I my case,it's an issue of an affinity for
left-handed "Jimmy Smith" material and an audience for that sytle I've built up over the years, plus the fact that I'm not much of an entertainer, so playing the instrument as well as I can is what I do.

When I 'm out for the evening, I want to hear music, not to be entertained by a lot of banter, shows, etc. But, hey, that's just me. I get out maby once a month, usually at a good restaurant,usually on my only night off-Sunday, where the music is part of the total experience.In fact, as I'm sure most of us do, I go where there is music I like.

The trick for me, and, I guess, for all of us, is to perform what makes us happy and get's the job done, in terms of compensation, reception of the audience, etc.

Actually, the wide variety of aproaches to our craft is what makes things interesting.The fact that this topic hit so many "hot" buttons proves that we're all passionate about what we do. THAT'S GOOD!

The key is to play, perform, whatever and make the effort a life enriching experience for ourselves and others.

Do what's right for YOU, and be tolerant of those who do it a different way.

But, DO IT!

Russ "lefty" Lay

Yoooo Russ....I didn't get upset with your post, acctually, yours was a very truthful an right on post...you do things your way and say go for it to the rest of us that do it different...OK, that's called respect for the folks doing it different than you do
as you say, every venue is different and requires a different outlook and plan of attack...when I was doing Vegas and Atlantic City, I didn't have a problem with any of this...I generally had pretty good musicians backing me, however today is a different story....A Man Gotta Do What A Man
Gotta Do.....I always enjoy your contributions on the Zone.....keep up the good work.....
Tony Rome

I'm in a duo with a drummer.

We play hotels, ckubs, private functions, whatever.

There are some audiences, especially ballroom (or wannabe ballroom!) who really appreciate a totally live sound where we can react rapidly to the mood swings of the audience (even mid-song) and adjust as required.Therefore this audience get bass pedals, keyboards, drums, vocals.

There are other audiences, usually the younger end (or the older end who've only ever been to discos for the past 20 years) for whom the only option is midi files so that we can approach the sound of the original. Playing uptempo stuff live is just not sufficient, even though we like to think we are pretty good!

I think the "too fluffy" concept may well be true, for certain audiences - but not for others.

As entertainers we have to evaluate our audiences and make our own calls as to what type of music is required, and then how best to fit that need.

In a perfect world I'd like to do it all live, but reality dictates otherwise.

I agree with your statements......
Ya got to mix it up, like it or not to fill the music spectrum in todays world of splintered audiences who enjoy so many types of music, as an entertainer/musician you have to do it all, using all resources available to you. Remember these tools no matter what they are styles, mp3's, smf's, live acoustic playing.....don't work by themselves.....the people factor will always remain there .....
& when a client pays you upwards of a thousand dollars for a gig & has a big smile on their face, you've done your job very well & thats all that matters, leading to many many other succesful jobs..

Styles with lotsa fluff are great. I view all styles as being designed for many and varied uses, so I try and use them, for instance take loungepiano style with a great grand intro. mute the grand and play it yourself, then play the ending. actually listen to all the style parts, mute out everything that sounds phony to the piece your playing, some tunes I do may have 3 or 4 tracks or more, muted. save to regs.
These styles in my opinion can be changed around so many ways that they give lots of mileage for many songs. I'm glad they have lots of options, I think they were made that way to give the player options.
I even have taken out the organ and flugel horn and come up with a great country style he he....

Tony: you got something that yam,korg,roland etc can't duplicate "a lovely human voice"

Musician's---The guy in front of the band with the little stick "musician"

The guy/gal in front of the mike "musician"

The guy behind the mixer making the music sound good "musician"

Musician in my dictionary is anyone who is pedaling music for money......

Kachink---Kachink....Pose

Thanks Pose...It's great to hear it coming from you and folks like you.....
Tony Rome

While I'm waiting for my new Tyros2, I thought I'd join the topic about "fluffy styles" and who's really a musician. I like styles. That's what I use as a basis for writing and performing original music (lots of respect for folks who perform all the classic songs; I used to do it myself years ago and may do it again). I think of myself as an "arranger"-type player; i.e., I play full chords with my left hand and comp along with my right. I believe if you play aggressively and competently with you right hand, people get the point. Sometimes, I even explain about backing rhythm tracks if someone asks "where'd those horns come from." Also, I do turn off tracks sometimes if simple sounds better, but I'm not afriad to let the styles go. Like I said. . .it's what I do. I play songs based on Yamaha or other styles, tweaked to suit me. Sometimes when I wonder if this is faking it somehow, I remember all those times of playing with some guy hacking on an out of tune guitar or banging away on a drum kit without a clue. Thanks again to Synthzone for several years of great info as a lurker.
Peace out, DerfM

I think that Pose summed up this debate quite well.

You can always take out the parts of a style that you don't like or are unneccessary but unless you have a lot of time and are pretty good at it then it isn't quite so easy to include them if they are missing in the first place.

When I gig with the Tyros I use a set of registrations that generally have some parts muted as well as reducing reverb levels and increasing some drum parts to give a more live sound.

One of the main ones is the string/pad sounds that tends to play all the time which leaves less space for your vocals and chops. If I didn't do this then there is too much samieness in the sound (is that really a word?).

However, when I play for my own amusement I sometimes copy parts from one style into others and that is really the extent of my style creating abilities - but the more parts you have the more combinations you have.

Regards - Keith

Keith, I concur. Though I too use registrations to store a number of my custom song arrangements, I prefer the much quicker song organization & retrieval system : the MusicFinder. The difference between calling up songs from MusicFinder vs REG is that, instead of creating a registration file, you must store your EDITED (and renamed) style in USER MEMORY. Unfortunately with Tyros1, this space is limited to less than 3.3 MB. With Tyros2, you're now able to call up custom styles from remote USB Memory Stick giving you virtually limitless custom style storage space which can be accessed by MusicFinder. This means, for the FIRST time, you can have a custom style for every song in your repertoire, and be able to organize, sort, and call them up quickly & conveniently via MusicFinder button. On the other hand, songs stored in REG do not benefit from the powerful search/organization function that MusicFinder provides. I find it much slower (cumbersome) to pull up a custom song in hierarchically alphabetized REG folders.

In previous versions of MusicFinder, the MusicFinder record pointer would always jump back to record #1 when you leave the MusicFinder window. VERY ANNOYING!. Thankfully, now with the Tyros2 MusicFinder, whatever MFD song record is currently selected, even if you leave MusicFinder (ie: check/edit keyboard settings) and open MusicFinder again, it REMEMBERS (and returns to) the last song you pulled up. I encourage others here fully tap the power of MusicFinder by not just relying on the MusicFinder Songs included with the keyboard, but creating your OWN MusicFinder database to also include ALL the SONGS you perform, including pulling up your own custom select styles for your songs. Music is not a cookie cutter, and I hope people will explore different styles for their songs than only what Yamaha suggests.

Scott

Scott,

I did try the Musicfinder method that you outlined some while back but I thought that the disadvantages outweighed the advantages.

However, the new T2 has overcome many of these but the biggest thing about using registrations for me (and this is also true if I just use the Ketron XD3 with a lightweight keyboard) is the fact that I just call up a reg using the numeric method (I have a seperate printed list for all my songs with the number reference on it)and the lyrics appear on the screen now that I have invested time in making the bitmaps of them. If the new musicfinder on the T2 can link the text files then this is a great step forward but I'm not sure it does. Let us know when you get yours.

When you also consider that with a reg you can also store things like transpose (for songs I play in Eflat but sing in f# for example, the appropriate vocal harmony setting or reveb/delay for your voice and other different settings like a variation dsp then Registrations are for me

Also using registrations you can use your styles stored on HD - but as you say - te T2 musicfinder overcomes that restriction.

I would like to see a musicfinder function that allows you to index registrations so that you can call them up by name, style, tempo or whatever - that would be the best of both worlds for me.

Regards - Keith

Keith. I concur. The most annoying thing with MusicFinder (even on Tyros2) imo, is it won't store a song's transpose settings. Adding Reg File support is what's really needed to make MusicFinder truly powerful. - Scott

One of the reasons I'm going to buy a new t2 is I'm hoping I can combine Music finder and regs, I'm thinking I can set up all instrumentals in Music finder, and all vocals in regs??????? whadda you think??

The new TY2 should solve my memory/storage problem that I have with the 9000. Also it would be nice to have all the lyrics on the TY2 and do away with the laptop, Don't know how difficult this would be? Never tried to put lyrics onboard yet! Anyone doing this?........Pose

Pose....I don't know about the T-2, however, the T-1 accepts all of my lyrics with my 40 gig hard drive I installed....I
should see no problems with the T-2 doing it
Tony Rome