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#129035 - 07/26/01 04:23 AM Re: The search for the perfect sax
Dreamer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/23/01
Posts: 3849
Loc: Rome - Italy
I wonder if the new Yamaha Motif has the same sax sounds as the PSR 9000; I know that many sounds (like the acoustic piano) are the same, so maybe this applies to the woodwinds too. By the way, the Motif should be less expensive than a PSR 9000 (and I hope Yamaha will come up with a Motif module soon).
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Korg Kronos 61 and PA3X-Pro76, Roland G-70, BK7-m and Integra 7, Casio PX-5S, Fender Stratocaster with Fralin pickups, Fender Stratocaster with Kinman pickups, vintage Gibson SG standard.

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#129036 - 07/26/01 07:55 AM Re: The search for the perfect sax
svpworld Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/00
Posts: 442
Loc: UK
I've got a Yamaha TG500, and I have to say that it as one of the best most authentic sax solo sounds I've heard on anything. The Yamaha PSR740 soprano sax is nice if you set the modulation wheel to alter filter brightness and then set it to its minimum, aka Kenny G... and if you play solo, you can use the mod wheel to enhance the sound. You can hear a nice example of this if youve got a PSR keyboard by listening to my midifile BabyRest, an original composition at http://svpworld.com/svpmidifiles.htm

Regards
Simon
SVPworld



------------------
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Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com
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#129037 - 07/29/01 09:06 PM Re: The search for the perfect sax
COMALite J Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/99
Posts: 86
Loc: Shreveport, LA, USA

No samp­led sax sound can ev­er sound quite like the Real Thing. Sax­es are among the most var­i­ab­le of in­stru­ments in their to­nal qual­ity and na­ture even dur­ing a sing­le note, and a samp­le can only cap­ture the par­tic­ul­ar var­i­a­tion(s) that the or­ig­in­al play­er of the real sax be­ing samp­led ac­tu­al­ly used. Once you have that dig­it­ized recording (which is all a samp­le is, after all), there’s not that much you can do to it (not in real-time, an­y­way) that would mim­ic what a real sax play­er could do.

Oh, you could va­ry the vi­bra­to depth with your Mod wheel, or set that or a foot ped­al or af­ter-touch to con­trol dig­it­al sub­trac­tive fil­ters to sim­u­late “bright­ness,” or even cross-fade be­tween mul­tip­le samp­les based on af­ter-touch pres­sure (per­haps the most re­al­is­tic thing you can do with samp­les but still not all that re­al­ist­ic: when a real sax player bright­ens his tone, he is not cross-fad­ing be­tween a mel­low sax sound and a bright one!), etc., but while all of those would give you some ex­pres­sive­ness above and be­yond a dry samp­le play­back, none of them would sound quite like what a real sax player does with his lips, tongue, throat, chest, etc.

No, the on­ly way at pres­ent to get tru­ly re­al­is­tic and nat­u­ral­ly ex­pres­sive sax sounds out of an el­ec­tron­ic in­stru­ment is with phys­ic­al mod­el­ling. The on­ly ar­ranger key­board that I know of that can do this for sure is Ya­ma­ha’s 9000Pro with one of its PLG slots filled with a PLG-150VL card, and also using a Breath Con­trol­ler or some oth­er means of send­ing the prop­er MIDI CCs. I’ve heard that the Tech­nics KN6000 (and pre­su­mab­ly 6500) can do some­thing sim­il­ar by track­ing a hu­man voice sing­ing into its mi­cro­phone, and using that to mod­u­late its brass and reed sounds, but I’ve nev­er heard this in action.

My $15 (not a typo!) YMF724-equip­ped PCI sound card in­cludes the equiv­al­ent of the PLG-150VL (sans ab­il­ity to pro­gram whole new al­go­rithms). I have just up­load­ed a samp­le to the Web space I got with my ISP but have never used for anything. It’s a MIDI file that I mod­if­ied from a demo I down­load­ed from NTon­yX’s web site to not use XG voi­ces past Level 1 (it was de­signed for the MU100R which is Lev­el 4 XG plus VL and VH, though of course the VH was­n’t used in this piece) that has an ab­so­lute­ly phe­nom­en­al, tru­ly ex­pres­sive ten­or jazz sax, and al­so a real­ly cool but short trum­pet part about 2¤3of the way through the song, both of which use VL. The back­ing mu­sic is en­tire­ly Lev­el 1 XG wave­ta­ble samp­led voi­ces, but even they sound better than usual due to full usage of the XG spec in­clu­ding use of MIDI Con­tin­u­ous Con­trol­lers (CCs). The MIDI file should the­o­ret­ic­al­ly play as-is on a 9000Pro with VL card installed (let me know if it doesn’t work right), as well as on any PC with a YMF7#4-based sound card or the S-YXG100plus 1.0 Soft Synth with SoftPLG-100VL module installed (this only gets in­stalled if you have a real In­tel Cel­er­on or Pen­ti­um II or ///, not an AMD). I will up­load an ASF (Win­dows Me­dia Au­dio) ver­sion as well so those of you with­out VL and Lev­el 1 XG (or better) equip­ment can still hear it the way it’s sup­posed to be. I ful­ly ex­pect that when you hear the .ASF, you will also want to down­load the .MIDi file (a much smal­ler file!) and load it in­to a se­quen­cer (even if you don’t have the MIDI gear need­ed to hear it in all its glo­ry), just to prove to your­self that this real­ly is MIDI that you’re hear­ing (off a $15 PC sound card’s in­ter­nal MIDI ca­pab­il­it­ies, no less)! It’s that good!

There are other as­pects to this song that dem­on­strate some other rath­er in­ter­est­ing tech­nol­o­gy. For one thing, none of the parts, neith­er XG samp­les nor VL, were gen­er­a­ted by re­cord­ing a live hu­man play­er’s play­ing. Nor were they man­u­al­ly tweaked with CC con­trol curves in an ad­vanced seq­uen­cer such as Cake­Walk, nor were the CC val­ues hand-en­tered in a less-so­phis­tic­a­ted MIDI ed­it­or (though I did do some hand-tweak­ing of the set­ups and a glo­bal re­place on which MIDI CC was being used in one case, I did not ad­just the val­ues them­selves). No, ev­ery nu­ance you hear, in VL and in wave­ta­bles (lis­ten es­pec­ial­ly to the bass, drums, and guit­ars), was gen­er­a­ted by NTon­yX’s in­cred­ible soft­ware, es­pec­ial­ly Style En­han­cer, which uses ar­tif­ic­ial in­tel­lig­ence to add hu­man-like nu­an­ces and warmth to dry hand-en­tered or key­board-played MIDI tracks! They now have a new, ea­si­er-to-use and more au­to­ma­ted pro­gram called Stylizer. I have long thought that Ya­ma­ha should li­cense their tech­nol­o­gies for use in the Sytles of a new se­ries of PSRs and Pro-line ar­ran­ger key­boards (the Mo­tif is a step in the right direction, as is the Korg KAR­MA, but neither is quite what NTon­yX is).


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#129038 - 07/30/01 04:03 AM Re: The search for the perfect sax
Dreamer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/23/01
Posts: 3849
Loc: Rome - Italy
Hi Comalite J,
thank you for your exhaustive reply; I just wonder why are you always using in your threads this typo character which makes reading more difficult.
Thank you again
_________________________
Korg Kronos 61 and PA3X-Pro76, Roland G-70, BK7-m and Integra 7, Casio PX-5S, Fender Stratocaster with Fralin pickups, Fender Stratocaster with Kinman pickups, vintage Gibson SG standard.

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#129039 - 07/30/01 08:36 AM Re: The search for the perfect sax
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Guys, I have a similar "cheap" Yamaha sound card (less than $20.) and I listened to Comalite's offerings several months ago. It is well worth the time and trouble to check it out. They are amazing, at least on a VL-capable card.
Eventually somebody, probably Yamaha, will fully integrate this technology into a keyboard that will capitalize on it.
DonM
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#129040 - 07/30/01 01:44 PM Re: The search for the perfect sax
COMALite J Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/99
Posts: 86
Loc: Shreveport, LA, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer:
Hi Comalite J,
thank you for your exhaustive reply; I just wonder why are you always using in your threads this typo character which makes reading more difficult.
Thank you again

“Typo char­ac­ter”!? I have no idea what you’re talk­ing about. Are you see­ing some sort of gar­bage sym­bol char­ac­ter? If so, it’s not show­ing up on my screen and I have no idea why you’d be see­ing such a thing.

On the oth­er hand, if you’re re­fer­ring to the type­face (aka. “font”), i. e. a “type of” (“type o’” aka. “typo”?), well, that“s for a rea­son. I ab­so­lute­ly hate Ari­al and Hel­vet­ica and sim­il­ar sans-ser­if fonts be­cause they make the low­er-case “L” and the up­per-case “i” look iden­tic­al, or so close there­to that most people can’t tell the dif­fer­ence (see for yourself: “Rick Springfield, III lives in Springfield, Ill.vs. “Rick Springfield, III lives in Springfield, Ill.” >. On my screen, this For­um de­faults to Ver­da­na, which, despite be­ing sans-ser­if, does dis­ting­uish be­tween those two let­ters, but not ev­er­y­one has that font in­stalled (it does come with In­ter­net Ex­plor­er 4 or la­ter for both Win­dows and Mac) and if it isn’t it will like­ly be sub­sti­tu­ted with Ar­i­al or Hel­vet­ica. I did­n’t want to take that chance. In­stead, I sup­ply a list of fonts in order of pref­er­ence to in­sure that, no mat­ter what plat­form my posts are viewed un­der, they will al­ways show up in a good-look­ing font that does­n’t con­fuse the looks of those two let­ters.

DonM, while the MIDI ver­sion does in­deed re­quire VL hard­ware (note that this in­cludes a 9000­Pro equipped with a PLG-150VL card!) or soft­ware to sound its best, it is play­able on any XG de­vice (but the sax ef­fect, the point of this Topic, won’t be an­y­where near as good as it would be with VL). Still, though, since the sax sound is so im­por­tant and so few peo­ple here have VL equip­ment, I did a di­rect re­cord­ing right off the sound card’s MIDI using the sound card’s own au­dio (to do that, select “Ster­eo Out” as your Re­cord­ing source in the Vol­ume Con­trols DS-XG Mix­er that comes up if you right-click on the lit­tle yel­low speak­er icon over by the clock dis­play, usu­al­ly on the right side of your Win­dows task bar) and re­cord­ed the MIDI play­back di­rect­ly to a .WAVe au­dio file, and used the free Win­dows Me­dia En­co­der 4.2 to en­code that into a .ASF file using the Vox­Ware Mu­sic Co­dec which comes with it (and which is no long­er av­ail­ab­le in Win­dows Me­dia En­co­der 7 and up) for min­im­al loss of qual­i­ty. The re­sul­ting file will play on any Win­dows or Mac mach­ine equipped with Win­dows Me­dia Play­er 6.4 or lat­er. It is, how­ev­er, a much big­ger down­load than the MIDI file (3.9MB vs. 86kB), though not any­where near the size of the raw .WAVe file! Note also that I’ve im­proved the MIDI since you last heard it (some MIDI set­up in­struc­tions were not com­plete so that while it sound­ed okay on my sys­tem, it was not guar­an­teed to do so even on an­oth­er sim­il­ar­ly-equipped sys­tem), so check it out again!

[This message has been edited by COMALite J (edited 07-30-2001).]


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#129041 - 08/01/01 05:40 AM Re: The search for the perfect sax
kaboombahchuck Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 275
Loc: Arizona USA
hi i'm not really sure where the best sax sound can be found. but one thing i know for sure is i use a wind midi controller and nothing can compare. i'm corrently using a yamaha wx5 played through an alesis nanosynth. it's pretty cool,but i'm really starting to get wet for a yamaha vl70m virtual acustic sound generater, but i digress. if your interested in learning the sax, the wx5 is deffinatly an option. check it out.
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#129042 - 08/01/01 09:37 PM Re: The search for the perfect sax
COMALite J Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/99
Posts: 86
Loc: Shreveport, LA, USA

Ka­boom­ba­chuck, yes, a WX-style Wind Con­trol­ler is just about the best way to play a VL-cap­a­ble de­vice, if you or some­one who will be work­ing with you knows how to play a so­pra­no sax, clar­i­net, or other in­stru­ment with sim­il­ar key­ing but­ton sys­tems (the WX was spe­cif­ic­al­ly de­signed to be sim­il­ar, as you well know). And, yes, a VL will sound much bet­ter than a Nan­o­Synth or any oth­er wave­ta­ble sampler or any oth­er syn­thes­is method that isn’t gen­u­ine phys­ic­al mod­el­ling. Lis­ten to the sam­ple .ASF file I linked to in my above mes­sage for an ex­am­ple of what you could ex­pect out of your WX if you hooked it to a VL-ca­pa­ble de­vice!

Now con­sid­er that you can get VL for un­der $20 in the form of a YMF724-based sound card (or any of the YMF 7#4-series chips, though cards based on the 744 or 754 tend to cost more, up to twice as much [shyeah, roight! — like $40 is too much to spend to get real VL!] — check on PriceWatch and search for “YMF” to see some good prices on Acer/AO­pen’s var­i­ants).

Al­ter­nat­ive­ly, you can down­load the 90-day demo ver­sion of S-YXG100plus 1.0 for free, but the SoftPLG-VL portion will only in­stall if you have a gen­u­ine In­tel Pen­ti­um II, !!!, 4, or Cel­er­on (have not tried it on an Ath­lon, but it will not in­stall on an AMD K6 [any var­i­ant] nor a Pen­ti­um or Pen­ti­um MMX).

Eith­er way, the VL you get will em­u­late near­ly all of the sounds and most of the func­tion­al­ity of a gen­u­ine VL70m! Just hook your WX up to your PC using an or­din­ary Joy­stick-to-MIDI ad­ap­ter ca­ble, with the WX con­nect­ed to the MIDI In!


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#129043 - 08/02/01 05:03 AM Re: The search for the perfect sax
kaboombahchuck Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 275
Loc: Arizona USA
COMALite J Thanks for the conformation on the vl70m. Unfortunatly all the rest is of no use to me, as i use an apple. don't ask why, it's a political thing. it does, however, give me some insite and something else to look out for.
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#129044 - 08/04/01 10:39 AM Re: The search for the perfect sax
COMALite J Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/99
Posts: 86
Loc: Shreveport, LA, USA

There are options for the Macintosh (mostly involving making them act like PCs — SoftWindows, VirtualPC, etc.), but there’s no guarantee that either a DS-XG YMF7#4 PCI card or the S-YXG100plus Soft Synth would work on them, and even if it did, those programs are expensive enough that it’d be just as cost-effective to buy a PC, or, better yet, a genuine VL-70m.

However, once you do have the VL-70m, note that the best VL editors (including the free Expert Editor that lets you even design your own models from scratch, rather than just piecing together parts of existing ones [e. g. what would a Flute sound like if it had an Oboe double-reed mouthpiece?] like the Visual Editors [for both Windows and Mac] do) are only available for the Mac at present!

By the way, have you listened to my recording yet? Windows Media Player 7 is now available as a free download for the Mac and will play .ASF and .WMA files! It should play my .ASF just fine, so you can hear my Nigh-Perfect Sax done on cheap VL — and remember that the real VL-70m is even better! Also download Yamaha’s SoundVQ Player for the Macintosh to play the .VQF demos on the YamahaSynth site — play the demo for the PLG-150VL card, not just the ones for the VL-70m — the PLG-150VL, like the DS-XG and SoftSynth solutions for Windows, are stripped-down versions of the real VL-70m, so anything you hear on that demo can be done at least as well, if not better, on the Real McCoy!


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