The search for the perfect sax
Posted by: Dreamer
The search for the perfect sax - 07/21/01 10:20 PM
I have read Boo's topic and have to agree with him: I LOVE the sax solo on "Just the way you are".
I agree with Boo also on the lack of interesting topics recently (maybe because many of us are off for holidays) and so (taking inspiration from Fran Carango's topic about sax sounds) have thought to ask to all the people on this board, what -in their opinion- is the best tenor/alto/soprano sax sound in all the arranger keyboards.
I love the tenor sax of my VA7 (Blowed Sax), but they sampled it with vibrato inside, so if I play sustained notes that vibrato effect becomes quite annoying. I love the tenor sax of the X1 too (heard on Notlos' songs), but didn't like too much the SD1 tenor sax (not even the Pop tenor suggested by Dan O). So this could be the right time to compare the sounds from our keyboards and maybe even record something to let other people hear and judge.
What do you think, guys?
Posted by: Gunnar Jonny
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/22/01 03:29 AM
Hi Dreamer.
At first I read it totally wrong, and thought
it was the "perfect sex"
,
but when I found my glasses, I could see
that you talking about sax.
Well, only joking......
I guess except from the sax'es in the KN, there's
nothing like the original, the real thing!
GJ
Posted by: Graham UK
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/22/01 05:10 AM
Dreamer.......You are wasting your time asking Boo about the best SAX sample on a keyboard because he does not think any of them come near to the real thing..........obviously he plays the real thing and should know and he has stated before, nothing is going to compare...........possibly one day, we live in hope of a near perfect sample??
Graham UK
Posted by: brickboo
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/22/01 06:11 PM
I have a Trombone sound on the i30 that I like. I guess Trombones are easier than Sax. The Technics has a few excellent Trumpets. The Sax sounds must be harder. I don't know why.
Trumpets and Trombones can bend a note naturally with the lip just as the Sax can. Maybe it will never happen.
The pianos, vibes and guitars to me are remarkable. And like I said before. I really like that no matter what the sound of any of the instruments are, you can't beat the fact that they are on pitch. In tune as one would say. I love it.
Boo
Posted by: Nobby
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/22/01 11:07 PM
Hey Boo,
I can still pound out a pretty mean Yak-a-tee-Sax (probably didn't spell that right) on my old 510 Yammy!
Cheers,
Nobby
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Posted by: DonM
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/23/01 08:54 AM
Nobby,
There is a style on the 510 with which I used to play "Bo Diddly", "Not Fade Away" and "Who Do You Love?". I think it was called Rock and Roll but I'm not certain. I've never heard this beat on any of the other keyboards. I would love to have it converted, but as far as I know, nobody has been able to convert 500 or 510 styles. They were made before Yamahas Stylefile format came along.
The 510 also has some other great styles that fit specific songs. I remember one for "Lyin' Eyes" by the Eagles, of course "My Way" and a few others. It's a great little keyboard that was ahead of it's time in many ways.
DonM
Posted by: danb
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/23/01 08:57 AM
Speaking of sax, what is the best value sax that I can buy? I have a passion for playing sax but I don't have one. Do you think a 40 year old guy will still have a chance to learn to play sax? I can play it with my keyboard although the sound doesn't 100% the same with the real thing. Should I buy sax or just stick to play keyboard for the rest of my life. I can play all kinds of instruments (keys, guitar, bass, drums, percussions, but not the reeds, horns and the like).
Posted by: Dreamer
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/23/01 12:35 PM
Hmmm.... I guess we are drifting away a bit. Let me be more specific: I am so crazy about the sax sound that I could buy a new keyboard just to have that killer Stan Getz sound. I know that Yamaha has a tradition about woodwinds, and the X1 had an excellent sax (not so the SD1). So what I am asking is: what do Yamaha owners think of their sax sound? Anyone heard a Motif? What about the Motif sax? And how do SD1 owners (like Roel, Notlos, John Smies, etc) compare the X1 to the SD1, sax-wise?
Thanks
Posted by: notlos
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/23/01 01:30 PM
Hi dreamer,
on the x1 suplement disk's (super solo's vol.1) there is a ""GREAT"" sax called "NIGHTSAX" This is the sound that sound like the old days when Stan Getz plays his bossa-nova's. I made sometimes ago a arrangement on jobim's "vivo sohando" (strange the title in english is "DREAMER"!)
Here i used that sax for the Getz-sound, and i found it amazing good !!!
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Posted by: Frank Bez
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/23/01 03:05 PM
Hi Dreamer,
This is by far the most difficulty question you have asked, for the proof is in the sound, not the talk. So, I have recorded my basic sax sound for you, which I feel can be achieved in any of the better keyboards. My favorite player was Paul Desmond, who played an even sweeter horn that Getz. The sound is in your face, but mellow. The reason I feel this sound can be produced by almost any keyboard is because of the processing.
In My KN6000 I start with the factory Soprano panned one third to the right and the same Soprano panned one third to the left. Each has a modest Reverb, which Technics calls Bright 1. In addition the Soprano on the right has DSP on it which Technics calls Space and it is set to 100. For the most part I play this set up in the alto or tenor ranges. In the demo song I do both. Even though I generally introduce a clarinet in a big band sax section sound, the two Soprano set up works fine for section playing too, which is what you hear in the demo.
To hear this little project click on Sax on the mp3 page of:
www.Kool-Keys.com Still hangin in, but pushing hard toward age 71,
Frank
Posted by: Henry01
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/23/01 06:27 PM
notlos,
'NightSax' is also on SD1's hard disk in folder 'Sound'. In fact, it has most of the Super Solo sounds plus a good Accordion sound.
Henry
Posted by: brickboo
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/23/01 06:48 PM
Danb,
Go here
http://www.geocities.com/saxontheweb/index.html This is a Sax forum. I don't have any idea which is the best new low end sax. I still play a Buescher "400" that I bought in '63 or so to replace a Selmer MarkIV that was stolen out of the club I was playing in at the time.
Expect a lot of different suggestions just as on this forum.
If you can get a good Buescher "400" off of ebay for $1200 or so go for it. It cost me $475 new. Selmers at the time were going for $595. I got a store that was going out of business. Buschers were maybe $525 at the time. Selmer MarkIV from the 50's and 60's are going for $3500 and up if in good condition today.
There is a remodel contractor about 60 years old I know that bought a brand new Selmer Alto sax a year or so ago and started taking sax lessons. If you have the bucks, lessons will move you much faster.
Boo
Posted by: ChicoBrasil
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/23/01 10:43 PM
Dom M.
I have still four Psr510's in my kb school.
Pls,give me the way to make use of this in
news yamis (9000 for ex.)
Mbr,ChicoBrasil
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ChicoBrasil
Posted by: Dreamer
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/24/01 01:15 AM
Frank,
I have downloaded your song labelled "Sax" (which was nothing else than the beautiful Georgia on my mind); thank you for your help. The KN 6500 has a great alto sax indeed and I like your expressive playing. You are a multitalented man indeed and it's too bad that we know each other just through the Internet (this applies to other members of this Forum as well; maybe we should really have some kind of annual Convention... who knows?)
Dirk, did you use the "Night sax" in any of your MP3s? I remember that John Smies mentioned a killer sax sound from the MS 100; does anyone know if those sounds (from the MS series) are to be found on the SD1 hard disk as well?
Henry01, since you look the most acknowledged among the SD1 owners, can you tell us if the SD1 accepts midi sample dump and, when sampling a new sound, does it allow (like a dedicate sampler) to layer a multi-sample throughout the keyboard with different split points? Did anyone have a chance to assess the SD1 sampling quality?
Thank you all and a long life to our beautiful Forum.
Posted by: Joe,Joey,JoJo
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/24/01 01:26 AM
HEY GUYS
SAX HUH ?
HOW BOUT YAMAHA VL7 OR THE NEW MOTIF 6,8 ?
I THINK IT THE BEST
AND PLUS YOU HAVE BREATH CONTROLE ...
JOEY
Posted by: DonM
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/24/01 06:45 AM
Chicobrasil,
I'm not sure how the 510's could be used with the newer gear, except as an extra keyboard. As I mentioned, some of the old styles are very useful, but are not compatible with the new keyboards. I was hoping somebody knew how to convert them.
I suppose someone could record sequences of the styles (song format), then convert the sequences into styles somehow. I know there is a program available for the Korg PA80 to convert midi to styles, but I haven't tried it.
DonM
[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 07-24-2001).]
Posted by: Henry01
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/24/01 07:22 AM
Dreamer,
MIDI sample dump is usually machine specific, I don't think SD1 supports it. SD1 can read/load .WAV, .MSP (multi-samples), and .INS (Ketron optimized wave format) files up to 16MB. You can layer up to 62 wave files across the keyboard and save it as a .MSP, multi-sample file. For a 61 keys keyboard, that's up to 1 wave sample per key! The sampling quality is very good. It supports a XLR input and a 1/4" input.
Henry
Posted by: Leon
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/24/01 12:37 PM
Good Sax huh?? I gotta go with my T3, along with the joystick I can get a true breathy sound. Just my thots!!
Posted by: john smies
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/24/01 01:43 PM
Dreamer,
Every one to his taste ,but in all the keyboards I have had over the years , the best sax to me is the BLOWSAX from the Solton MS keyboards. I was shocked to find out it had been omitted from the SD-1 internal sounds, but as Henry already pointed out this sax, or virtually the same one, has been included on the harddisk soundfile. (as well as the outstanding musette/accordeon sound, also dating back to the years of the MS series).
However having said all that I seem to recall that the breathy sax on e.g. the PSR9000 is also very worthwhile, and ,like I mentioned before on so many occasions, there's nothing stopping anyone from running to the nearest sax player he knows and sampling the 'perfect' sax, THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE INCLUDED SAMPLING ON ALMOST EVERY TOPRANGE KEYBOARD these days. But like I said, the solton blowsax would be among the finest sax samples that I know of..........
saluti !!!!
Posted by: Micco
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/26/01 12:27 AM
I think that the PSR9000 has the best sax sounds. I have been comparing the sax sounds because I play tenor saxophone myself and next week I will start to play soprano sax also, but first I have to buy a good soprano sax. At the moment I have Yamaha YTS-62E tenor sax which has a great sound and I think the tenor sax sound on the PSR9000 is from this horn. At least they sound so similar and here it is amazing how close the keyboard can come to the real thing. It is like the piano sound on the Technics KN6000 and the real Steinway grand piano.
Micco
Posted by: Dreamer
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/26/01 04:23 AM
I wonder if the new Yamaha Motif has the same sax sounds as the PSR 9000; I know that many sounds (like the acoustic piano) are the same, so maybe this applies to the woodwinds too. By the way, the Motif should be less expensive than a PSR 9000 (and I hope Yamaha will come up with a Motif module soon).
Posted by: svpworld
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/26/01 07:55 AM
I've got a Yamaha TG500, and I have to say that it as one of the best most authentic sax solo sounds I've heard on anything. The Yamaha PSR740 soprano sax is nice if you set the modulation wheel to alter filter brightness and then set it to its minimum, aka Kenny G... and if you play solo, you can use the mod wheel to enhance the sound. You can hear a nice example of this if youve got a PSR keyboard by listening to my midifile BabyRest, an original composition at
http://svpworld.com/svpmidifiles.htm Regards
Simon
SVPworld
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________________________
Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com________________________
Posted by: COMALite J
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/29/01 09:06 PM
No sampled sax sound can ever sound quite like the Real Thing. Saxes are among the most variable of instruments in their tonal quality and nature even during a single note, and a sample can only capture the particular variation(s) that the original player of the real sax being sampled actually used. Once you have that digitized recording (which is all a sample is, after all), theres not that much you can do to it (not in real-time, anyway) that would mimic what a real sax player could do.
Oh, you could vary the vibrato depth with your Mod wheel, or set that or a foot pedal or after-touch to control digital subtractive filters to simulate brightness, or even cross-fade between multiple samples based on after-touch pressure (perhaps the most realistic thing you can do with samples but still not all that realistic: when a real sax player brightens his tone, he is not cross-fading between a mellow sax sound and a bright one!), etc., but while all of those would give you some expressiveness above and beyond a dry sample playback, none of them would sound quite like what a real sax player does with his lips, tongue, throat, chest, etc.
No, the only way at present to get truly realistic and naturally expressive sax sounds out of an electronic instrument is with physical modelling. The only arranger keyboard that I know of that can do this for sure is Yamahas 9000Pro with one of its PLG slots filled with a PLG-150VL card, and also using a Breath Controller or some other means of sending the proper MIDI CCs. Ive heard that the Technics KN6000 (and presumably 6500) can do something similar by tracking a human voice singing into its microphone, and using that to modulate its brass and reed sounds, but Ive never heard this in action.
My $15 (not a typo!) YMF724-equipped PCI sound card includes the equivalent of the PLG-150VL (sans ability to program whole new algorithms). I have just uploaded a sample to the Web space I got with my ISP but have never used for anything. Its a MIDI file that I modified from a demo I downloaded from NTonyXs web site to not use XG voices past Level 1 (it was designed for the MU100R which is Level 4 XG plus VL and VH, though of course the VH wasnt used in this piece) that has an absolutely phenomenal, truly expressive tenor jazz sax, and also a really cool but short trumpet part about 2¤3of the way through the song, both of which use VL. The backing music is entirely Level 1 XG wavetable sampled voices, but even they sound better than usual due to full usage of the XG spec including use of MIDI Continuous Controllers (CCs). The MIDI file should theoretically play as-is on a 9000Pro with VL card installed (let me know if it doesnt work right), as well as on any PC with a YMF7#4-based sound card or the S-YXG100plus 1.0 Soft Synth with SoftPLG-100VL module installed (this only gets installed if you have a real Intel Celeron or Pentium II or ///, not an AMD). I will upload an ASF (Windows Media Audio) version as well so those of you without VL and Level 1 XG (or better) equipment can still hear it the way its supposed to be. I fully expect that when you hear the .ASF, you will also want to download the .MIDi file (a much smaller file!) and load it into a sequencer (even if you dont have the MIDI gear needed to hear it in all its glory), just to prove to yourself that this really is MIDI that youre hearing (off a $15 PC sound cards internal MIDI capabilities, no less)! Its that good!
There are other aspects to this song that demonstrate some other rather interesting technology. For one thing, none of the parts, neither XG samples nor VL, were generated by recording a live human players playing. Nor were they manually tweaked with CC control curves in an advanced sequencer such as CakeWalk, nor were the CC values hand-entered in a less-sophisticated MIDI editor (though I did do some hand-tweaking of the setups and a global replace on which MIDI CC was being used in one case, I did not adjust the values themselves). No, every nuance you hear, in VL and in wavetables (listen especially to the bass, drums, and guitars), was generated by NTonyXs incredible software, especially Style Enhancer, which uses artificial intelligence to add human-like nuances and warmth to dry hand-entered or keyboard-played MIDI tracks! They now have a new, easier-to-use and more automated program called Stylizer. I have long thought that Yamaha should license their technologies for use in the Sytles of a new series of PSRs and Pro-line arranger keyboards (the Motif is a step in the right direction, as is the Korg KARMA, but neither is quite what NTonyX is).
Posted by: Dreamer
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/30/01 04:03 AM
Hi Comalite J,
thank you for your exhaustive reply; I just wonder why are you always using in your threads this typo character which makes reading more difficult.
Thank you again
Posted by: DonM
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/30/01 08:36 AM
Guys, I have a similar "cheap" Yamaha sound card (less than $20.) and I listened to Comalite's offerings several months ago. It is well worth the time and trouble to check it out. They are amazing, at least on a VL-capable card.
Eventually somebody, probably Yamaha, will fully integrate this technology into a keyboard that will capitalize on it.
DonM
Posted by: COMALite J
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 07/30/01 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Dreamer:
Hi Comalite J,
thank you for your exhaustive reply; I just wonder why are you always using in your threads this typo character which makes reading more difficult.
Thank you again
“Typo character”!? I have no idea what you’re talking about. Are you seeing some sort of garbage symbol character? If so, it’s not showing up on my screen and I have no idea why you’d be seeing such a thing.
On the other hand, if you’re referring to the typeface (aka. “font”), i. e. a “type of” (“type o’” aka. “typo”?), well, that“s for a reason. I absolutely hate Arial and Helvetica and similar sans-serif fonts because they make the lower-case “L” and the upper-case “i” look identical, or so close thereto that most people can’t tell the difference (see for yourself: “Rick Springfield, III lives in Springfield, Ill.” vs. “Rick Springfield, III lives in Springfield, Ill.” >. On my screen, this Forum defaults to Verdana, which, despite being sans-serif, does distinguish between those two letters, but not everyone has that font installed (it does come with Internet Explorer 4 or later for both Windows and Mac) and if it isn’t it will likely be substituted with Arial or Helvetica. I didn’t want to take that chance. Instead, I supply a list of fonts in order of preference to insure that, no matter what platform my posts are viewed under, they will always show up in a good-looking font that doesn’t confuse the looks of those two letters.
DonM, while the MIDI version does indeed require VL hardware (note that this includes a 9000Pro equipped with a PLG-150VL card!) or software to sound its best, it is playable on any XG device (but the sax effect, the point of this Topic, won’t be anywhere near as good as it would be with VL). Still, though, since the sax sound is so important and so few people here have VL equipment, I did a direct recording right off the sound card’s MIDI using the sound card’s own audio (to do that, select “Stereo Out” as your Recording source in the Volume Controls DS-XG Mixer that comes up if you right-click on the little yellow speaker icon over by the clock display, usually on the right side of your Windows task bar) and recorded the MIDI playback directly to a .WAVe audio file, and used the free Windows Media Encoder 4.2 to encode that into a .ASF file using the VoxWare Music Codec which comes with it (and which is no longer available in Windows Media Encoder 7 and up) for minimal loss of quality. The resulting file will play on any Windows or Mac machine equipped with Windows Media Player 6.4 or later. It is, however, a much bigger download than the MIDI file (3.9MB vs. 86kB), though not anywhere near the size of the raw .WAVe file! Note also that I’ve improved the MIDI since you last heard it (some MIDI setup instructions were not complete so that while it sounded okay on my system, it was not guaranteed to do so even on another similarly-equipped system), so check it out again!
[This message has been edited by COMALite J (edited 07-30-2001).]
Posted by: kaboombahchuck
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 08/01/01 05:40 AM
hi i'm not really sure where the best sax sound can be found. but one thing i know for sure is i use a wind midi controller and nothing can compare. i'm corrently using a yamaha wx5 played through an alesis nanosynth. it's pretty cool,but i'm really starting to get wet for a yamaha vl70m virtual acustic sound generater, but i digress. if your interested in learning the sax, the wx5 is deffinatly an option. check it out.
Posted by: COMALite J
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 08/01/01 09:37 PM
Kaboombachuck, yes, a WX-style Wind Controller is just about the best way to play a VL-capable device, if you or someone who will be working with you knows how to play a soprano sax, clarinet, or other instrument with similar keying button systems (the WX was specifically designed to be similar, as you well know). And, yes, a VL will sound much better than a NanoSynth or any other wavetable sampler or any other synthesis method that isnt genuine physical modelling. Listen to the sample .ASF file I linked to in my above message for an example of what you could expect out of your WX if you hooked it to a VL-capable device!
Now consider that you can get VL for under $20 in the form of a YMF724-based sound card (or any of the YMF 7#4-series chips, though cards based on the 744 or 754 tend to cost more, up to twice as much [shyeah, roight! like $40 is too much to spend to get real VL!] check on PriceWatch and search for YMF to see some good prices on Acer/AOpens variants).
Alternatively, you can download the 90-day demo version of S-YXG100plus 1.0 for free, but the SoftPLG-VL portion will only install if you have a genuine Intel Pentium II, !!!, 4, or Celeron (have not tried it on an Athlon, but it will not install on an AMD K6 [any variant] nor a Pentium or Pentium MMX).
Either way, the VL you get will emulate nearly all of the sounds and most of the functionality of a genuine VL70m! Just hook your WX up to your PC using an ordinary Joystick-to-MIDI adapter cable, with the WX connected to the MIDI In!
Posted by: kaboombahchuck
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 08/02/01 05:03 AM
COMALite J Thanks for the conformation on the vl70m. Unfortunatly all the rest is of no use to me, as i use an apple. don't ask why, it's a political thing. it does, however, give me some insite and something else to look out for.
Posted by: COMALite J
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 08/04/01 10:39 AM
There are options for the Macintosh (mostly involving making them act like PCs SoftWindows, VirtualPC, etc.), but theres no guarantee that either a DS-XG YMF7#4 PCI card or the S-YXG100plus Soft Synth would work on them, and even if it did, those programs are expensive enough that itd be just as cost-effective to buy a PC, or, better yet, a genuine VL-70m.
However, once you do have the VL-70m, note that the best VL editors (including the free Expert Editor that lets you even design your own models from scratch, rather than just piecing together parts of existing ones [e. g. what would a Flute sound like if it had an Oboe double-reed mouthpiece?] like the Visual Editors [for both Windows and Mac] do) are only available for the Mac at present!
By the way, have you listened to my recording yet? Windows Media Player 7 is now available as a free download for the Mac and will play .ASF and .WMA files! It should play my .ASF just fine, so you can hear my Nigh-Perfect Sax done on cheap VL and remember that the real VL-70m is even better! Also download Yamahas SoundVQ Player for the Macintosh to play the .VQF demos on the YamahaSynth site play the demo for the PLG-150VL card, not just the ones for the VL-70m the PLG-150VL, like the DS-XG and SoftSynth solutions for Windows, are stripped-down versions of the real VL-70m, so anything you hear on that demo can be done at least as well, if not better, on the Real McCoy!
Posted by: kaboombahchuck
Re: The search for the perfect sax - 08/07/01 06:25 AM
COMALite J, i was unable to download your song. i downloaded media player for mac, but it don't seem to be working. i went to the yamaha site and downloaded what you sugested, but have not been able to use it yet. thanks for all the info . if you would like to check out what i've done there is a simple song at
http://homepage.mac.com/kaboombahchuck/FileSharing.html . it is a mp3 useable on all players in any format. check it out and tell me what you think. if any one else wan's to check it out please free to. comments are welcome.
[This message has been edited by kaboombahchuck (edited 08-07-2001).]
[This message has been edited by kaboombahchuck (edited 08-07-2001).]