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#127753 - 01/01/02 01:32 PM PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10423
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
I usually only play the PSR2000 in ‘AI Fingered’ or ‘Fingered mode’. I would prefer to play in ‘full keyboard’ mode, but I’m really disappointed in the way the PSR2000 recognizes chords in ‘full keyboard’ mode. For some reason (in ‘full keyboard’ mode), when you play a chord inversion in the left hand and then play (with your right hand), any note one octave above one of the notes being played with the left hand (other than the chord’s root note), the chord is recognized as an ‘on bass’ chord. This means that if you play a 1st inversion C7 chord (E2-G2-Bb2-C3) with your left hand, and play (in your right hand), the note E3 or G3, the chord will be recognized as an ‘on bass’ chord C7/E and the auto accompanmint bass part will play an E note repeatedly. This in itself is not neccesarily bad, but it can sound jarring & inappropriate when playing a melody or soloing in the right hand, as the chord recognition (and associated bass pattern) will shift unexpectantly back and forth between C7 (C bass line pattern) and the C7/E ‘on bass’ note (single E note) as you play the scale: C3 – D3- E-3 – F3 – G3, A3 – Bb3 – C4. The Technics KN arranger keyboards (thankfully) do not implement ‘on bass’ chord recognition when playing in ‘full keyboard’ mode.

I’m trying to figure out if Yamaha intentionally implemented ‘on bass’ chord recognition in ‘full keyboard’ mode, or if it’s just a bug in the PSR2000 which needs to be corrected. Does the PSR9000 or 9000pro implement ‘on bass’ chord recognition in ‘full keyboard’ mode too? I personally think implementing 'on bass' chord recognition when in 'full keyboard' mode was a stupid idea as it can produce unexpected (unmusical) results.

I really would like to at least have the option to turn the “on bass” chord recognition feature (when in 'full keyboard' mode) off. I wonder if Yamaha would consider this in as OS update? The PSR2000 already includes a separate ‘on bass’ chord recognition mode , so I can’t figure out why Yamaha implemented this ‘on bass’ thing as a part of ‘full keyboard’ mode too. Interested in hearing from others regarding this.

- Scott
http://scottyee.com
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#127754 - 01/01/02 03:12 PM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10707
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
I think most full kb modes will get confused with alot of "one note" solos. That's the purpose of having a split mode - each part has a job to do, right?
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#127755 - 01/01/02 09:37 PM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10423
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Uncle Dave,
On Technics KN6500/6000/5000 arranger keyboards, I'm easily able play in 'full keyboard' mode (two handed with right hand playing either a 'few' or 'a lot' of one note solos) without any chord recognition problems . If Yamaha eliminated the 'on bass' chord recognition when in 'full keyboard' mode, I'm sure it would solve the problem of playing the PSR2000 in 'full keyboard' mode. Maybe Yamaha could learn something from Technics here. I'm just curious 'how many' people out there actually successfully play Yamaha PSR keyboards in 'full keyboard' mode, the way Yamaha currently has the PSR2000 set up. - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 01-01-2002).]
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#127756 - 01/01/02 11:04 PM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Kmac Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/00
Posts: 43
I really enjoy using the pianist mode on the technics keyboards and pr pianos. It gives me the opportunity to use some more advanced voicings / chord subs on the fly ( with accomps). It's very good for accompanying horn players as well. I wouldn't really want to be with out it.


[This message has been edited by Kmac (edited 01-01-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Kmac (edited 01-01-2002).]
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#127757 - 01/01/02 11:06 PM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10707
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
For me, if I'm playing full kb mode, it's because I'm doing a piano solo thing - no need for any fake accmpt.
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Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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#127758 - 01/01/02 11:07 PM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10707
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
Please don't take offence to the "fake" referance - you know what I mean ..... it's all fake (inside the box).
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Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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#127759 - 01/01/02 11:15 PM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Kmac Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/00
Posts: 43
Uncle Dave when you play solo gigs do you play full keyboard with no accomps what so ever? Just wondering I didn't follow your last post exactly. Wasn't sure if you use any drums or different sounds of any kind
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Kelly

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#127760 - 01/02/02 12:01 AM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15088
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Scott, I don't use that mode, but I did try it. I don't recall mine acting that way. When I get it out of the bag, I'll try it again.
Happy New Year!
Don
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#127761 - 01/02/02 12:02 AM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10423
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Uncle Dave: When I want to play 'solo piano' (no drums/bass or any auto accomp) on the arranger KB, I just turn off the auto accomp (ACMP) button. I believe the purpose of 'full keyboard' (pianist) mode is to support auto accompaniment chord recognition across the 'entire' keyboard.

Though playing in split mode is a fine option, as a piano player, the ability to play in 'full keyboard' mode offers you more creative keyboard (pianistic) playing options than split mode can provide, as Kmac (Kelly) attests to as well (advanced chord voicings, substitutions, breaking up chord voicings between hands, etc).

Technics KN keyboards correctly recognizes chords & supports (and quite nicely in a musical way) playing in 'full keyboard' mode w/auto accomp (even when playing melodies/solos with lots of notes in the right hand), so I think that Yamaha should be able to as well. Yamaha could improve its' 'full keyboard' chord recognition by just eliminating (or at least giving us the option to turn it on or off) 'on bass' style chord recognition when in playing in 'full keyboard' mode. - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 01-02-2002).]
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#127762 - 01/02/02 04:46 AM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Graham UK Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/20/01
Posts: 1771
Loc: Lincolnshire UK
Scott...I have been reading your problem regarding FULL KEYBOARD MODE with interest because I play a lot like this on my EM2000. Full Keyboard Piano with a nice Jazz Style running full accompaniment. Setting my board to Pianists Mode things run fine, Playing full chords left hand with both hands close around middle C. It works with 2 notes added to the right hand melody, but adding a third note right hand adds to the chord played.

My local friend with a PSR9000 has just installed OS Ver 3.1 so I will check his board out for my own interest as well as yours.

Graham UK

[This message has been edited by Graham UK (edited 01-02-2002).]

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#127763 - 01/02/02 06:50 AM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10707
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
Kmac,
I use the drums a lot. What I meant by, solo piano mode is that, if I am playing with both hands on the same sound (piano, rhodes, whatever) then I am usually NOT trying to sound band-like.
WE all have our little quirks about style and techniques, but what it all boils down to is - HOW can this keyboard serve MY needs?
If you find enough workarounds for your tastes - great .... if not... you have to keep searching.
Personally... I think it's almost going in a backwards direction. (keyboard development)
There are so many wonderful things that can be done with digital help, but it seems like we only get a "taste" of it at a time.
I mentioned before - I may try the "piano" approach this year. I have a Roland FP3, and it's very portable, and has 88 weighted keys. It also has a drum machine and a limited arranger built in, so I was thinking of trying it out so I can "pound out" on the keys when the situation arises without fearing a plastic meltdown! I'll use more sequences for dance tunes, the arranger for on the spot requests, and play the piano "straight" the rest of the time.
I'm getting sentimental for the feel of a "real solid" keypad under my fingers..... Maybe this will keep me happy for 15 minutes...... HA !
(yeah, right .... ME, happy?)
_________________________
Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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#127764 - 01/02/02 10:55 AM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Graham UK Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/20/01
Posts: 1771
Loc: Lincolnshire UK
Scott..Replying again to your full keyboard mode problem. I have just checked out my friends PSR9000 with latest OS 3.1. It still unfortunately adds the extra notes from the right hand to the left hand chords in full keyboard mode as per your PSR2000.

PSR9000 Pro I am told (Perhaps 9000 Pro owners can confirm this) with the new OS 2.1 does keep the chords clean from being added to from the right hand melody notes when in full keyboard mode. I think its called A1 mode. Why Yamaha decided not to add this facility to the latest OS on the 9000 is your guess?

Graham UK

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#127765 - 01/02/02 11:40 AM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15088
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Scott, Yes, you're right. Glad I'm not a piano-style player.
Maybe they will upgrade.
DonM
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#127766 - 01/02/02 12:09 PM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10423
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Don: I sure hope that Yamaha will correct this too. Anyway, I think it's important to note that the 'full keyboard' mode 'on bass' problem ONLY occurs when you play (with your right hand) notes within one octave above the chord tones you play with your left hand. All other notes (in other octaves) played with the right hand do NOT cause the 'on bass' thing to be triggered. Unless another PSR owner (PSR9000/9000pro) is experiencing this same thing on their keyboard, I'm thinking that this is a problem (bug?) on the PSR2000 which needs to be addressed in an OS update. Don, btw, did Yamaha ever get back to you regarding the vocalizer problem? They still haven't returned my call.

Graham: Yes, 'A1 full keyboard' is included on the PSR2000 and it does solve the 'on bass chord' recognition' problem I described above, but unfortunately 'A1 full keyboard' mode also does NOT support rootless chord recognition.

I've quickly grown to realize that there is'nt (and may never be) 'ONE' single perfect arranger keyboard out there. All the arranger keyboards have different 'strengths' and 'weaknesses'. It's just a continueing fun challenge to find new ways of adapting & customizing each one to meet our individual playing requirements.

Wishing the best to all in 2002,

- Scott
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#127767 - 01/02/02 12:24 PM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15088
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
No they haven't called me. Very disappointing.
I hope that new GEM keyboard isn't as good as they say it will be.
Don
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#127768 - 01/02/02 01:34 PM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15088
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
I just got inspired to call Yamaha again. I nice lady told me they had answered this question for Scott Yee!!
I said what does that have to do with me?
Anyway I finally got through to a technician, and he worked on it for quite some time.
He was able to get the Speedy Mouse to work by tweaking the settings. I was not able to, but he has a newer OS than I do.
He was not able to get the Karaoke Girl to work right.
He said Yamaha Japan is closed for New Years but that he will get back to me as soon as he receives OS upgrade, and/or any information regarding the Vocal Harmony problem. He said that while the keyboard he had had a newer OS, it was not yet available in any form that could be sent out. In other words, it's in his keyboard but he doesn't have it on computer in software form.
He then told me that my case had been closed out because they had answered this question for Scott Yee, and there was a note that Scoot and I are in the same band, so they closed my file out too. I suppose somebody assumed that since we asked about the same problem, that we were "together".
DonM
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#127769 - 01/02/02 02:08 PM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10423
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Don,

Interesting how Yamaha assumed just because we both had reported the 'same' problem that we both play in the same band. Go figure! Maybe this is a cue for us to start some kind of duo act going

Yes, I talked to a Yamaha Tech named Bill Kamstra a couple of weeks back. As you may have remembered from my earlier post, he initially would NOT even acknowledge there was a problem, but he finally told me he would look into the matter and would get back to me. Still haven't heard back from him about this yet. At this point, we can only wait to see if a fix is included in an OS update I suppose.

I hope the new PSR2000 OS update will be available for download (off the internet) soon.

- Scott
http://scottyee.com
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#127770 - 01/02/02 02:43 PM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15088
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Scott,
The lady that I first talked to said that her records show they had called you back and closed the file!!
Also the guy did say that he thought the new OS upgrade made it possible to save Fingering Modes in registration memory.
Go ahead and book a couple weeks' work, and I'll be out there.
They won't know if we're Chinese, Native American, Cajun, or something in between.
Don
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DonM

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#127771 - 01/02/02 11:37 PM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Dreamer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/23/01
Posts: 3849
Loc: Rome - Italy
Wow! Scott and Don together!
How will they call you.....the Cool Brothers?
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Korg Kronos 61 and PA3X-Pro76, Roland G-70, BK7-m and Integra 7, Casio PX-5S, Fender Stratocaster with Fralin pickups, Fender Stratocaster with Kinman pickups, vintage Gibson SG standard.

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#127772 - 01/03/02 12:08 AM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10707
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
How 'bout ..... Grandfather & Grasshopper?
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Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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#127773 - 01/04/02 11:27 AM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10423
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
The Karate Kid, right?
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#127774 - 01/04/02 12:17 PM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15088
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
I suppose you'll have to be the kid, Scott, but none of my boys has made me a grandfather yet. They all have girlfriends or wives, but so far they have more sense than I did.
Don
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DonM

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#127775 - 01/04/02 01:30 PM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10707
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
Nope ! Remember Kung Fu with one of the Caradine Brothers? Can't remember which one.
_________________________
Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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#127776 - 01/04/02 01:52 PM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 15088
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
"That was before my time." John Conlee
Don
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DonM

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#127777 - 01/04/02 02:51 PM Re: PSR2000: Disappointing Chord Recogntion in 'Full Keyboard' mode !
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10423
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
You meant: John Kahn Lee, right?
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