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#125982 - 12/22/01 09:01 PM Re: If you were to pick 2..., which ones?
Octave8 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/02/01
Posts: 95
Steve,

You get Biased Veiws, Unbiased views. Here is an extract from A Forum Concerning the New PSR 9000 Pro:

Quote:

I agree it's an interesting looking synth.. it's like an s30 crossed with a PSR. The fact that all the patches are categorized as either "Live!" "Cool!" or "Sweet!" would really get to me. I didn't realize it was that expensive.. I guess it's main competitor then is the new Korg Karma, although its feature set is also similar to the GEM Equinox.
I have a feeling (from what I've read) that the Karma's accompaniment stuff is much more creative and less lounge/song oriented than the PSR's, but then again they're not editable, whereas the Yamaha's are. At first I thought the Yamaha was super cheesy, but on second look it has power features and it does sound good. The goosenecks are funny but practical. As I said in the Karma thread I'm reevaluating my hatred of accompaniment/arranger synths and will probably look into these various models a little more seriously this summer.

That was before he heard it, this is what he said after]:

About it sounding good: I take that back - I finished listening to their demos and nearly all of them are in the style that makes me want to puke, that physically make my body sick. Even though I could put a Vl-70 board in that thing I don't think I could stomach the fact that it's made for a lounge keyboard player doing arrangements that make me want to run away. I'm simply not that kind of player, or listener. My second look at the keyboard was more favorable. My third look (or my second hearing) made me sick to my stomach. So now I'll pay little attention to its existence.


Yamaha - a New Bread of Workstation...

You see steve, it is only until he HEARD the Yamaha Pro, that he totally changed his attitude towards it. So contrasting. Cheesy sounds? - well, some of these Pro players are used to there hi-tech gear, that this Yamaha pro probrably does sound Cheesy to him. He Said it looked good, but that doesn't compensate for the poor/cheesy sounds he portrays. As he said, his third listen to it made him want to puke.

Well, it really all depends what type of music you want. If you like "easy going" Lounge music, then you probrably won't like what type of music he like etc.....

If I want to find out more about a new Keyboard I will avoid reading on forums that lean towards "biasness" - because all you are doing is fooling yourself into thinking "you" have the best product on the market. I've heard great comments on the PA80 for example, on other forums, but not so much here (by comparison) That's probrably because its a KORG - and KORG - with its Triton engine will appeal more to most "Pro" players than "PSR" keyboards - which people see as "Cheesy".



O8



[This message has been edited by Octave8 (edited 12-22-2001).]

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#125983 - 12/23/01 12:12 PM Re: If you were to pick 2..., which ones?
ChicoBrasil Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/01
Posts: 993
Loc: Belo Horizonte,Minas Gerais,Br...
My quick comment
Overall evaluation:
Ketron SD1:*****
9000 Pro :*****
Korg PA80 :***
VA7/2 :***

Two five stars:SD1, 9000Pro
SD1: The best for voices and style demonstrations and personal ability.
9000Pro: Faaaaar the best for day/day works.
Chico

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#125984 - 12/23/01 10:05 PM Re: If you were to pick 2..., which ones?
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Quote:
Originally posted by George Kaye:
This is my take on Technics and why I would not choose to display or sell their keyboards. Even if the next generation keyboards were the best sounding keyboards, I would not consider them in my store unless the company really could convince me they were running their business differently than I now know them as.George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California


George, I too visited the Technics booth at the NAMM show (Jan 2001) but came away with an entirely different impression than you. The Technics showroom people (Rocco Ferrante, Chris Halon, etc) were all friendly and took a keen interest in showing me their product line. In contrast to you, I was 'very impressed' with the KN6500's sounds and styles. I feel that Technics styles and sounds really showcase traditional combo jazz, big band, and latin genres; while Solton, Roland, Korg shine in the contemporary pop & rock department. It's really more like comparing apples to oranges. Owning both the Technics KN5000 (predessor to the KN6500/6000) and now the Yamaha PSR2000 too, I can say that they have different strengths. For traditional lounge jazz combo gigs, I prefer the KN5000, but for a more contemporary sound geared to a wider genre of music, the Yamaha wins. I think Technics styles have much better jazz style walking bass lines, but Yamaha utilizes drum 'fill ins' better (fill in better integrated: smoother transitions to variation). I have found that integrating Technics great bass lines with Yamaha's drum patterns/fills produces just the PSR style sound I like. Out of the box, I still prefer the Technics acoustic (steinway) piano for playing (comping & soloing) in arranger KB mode, but after tweaking and layering, an acceptable piano is achieved on the Yamaha PSR2000 as well.

I agree with George that Technics (here in the US) has highly inflated dealer price markups. It's important to point out that even if George Kaye decided he wanted to carry the Technics KN arranger keyboard line, that Technics would not allow him to carry it, because Technics dealer policy (in the US) only permits traditional acoustic piano/organ stores (Colton Piano/Organs, etc). to sell their KN keyboard line.

Though I still think that the Technics KN6500 may be the best sounding top of the line Keyboard arranger for the style of music I love, until Technics USA ammends its' highly restrictive sales policy, its' price will remain overly inflated compared to comparable arranger keyboards out there.

- Scott
_________________________

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#125985 - 12/24/01 08:15 AM Re: If you were to pick 2..., which ones?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10899
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
OK OK OK ! The gauntlet has been thrown!

I tried NOT to respond to that hogwash that O8 posted, but I just can't listen to this crap anymore.
"PRO" players are the ones making the money, and the hardest working, most versatile players are doing "lounge gigs" (....he said with distain), retirement centers, and private parties. Dance clubs and R&R gigs do not define the players, and jazz cats rarely make any REAL money, until they hit the big time.

I'm sick of the MTV mentality that is brainwashing the players of tomorrow into thinking that ALL guitars are played through Marshal amps, and all KB players need the latest offering from the big three...etc.
There is a sad truth in the world of music that is taking the CREATION of the art OUT of the art form! As sampling, looping and auto stuff becomes more prevalent -- the need for chops, and discipline will disappear. It's almost gone already.

I realize that the psr keyboards have limitations, but no more than the Tritons and Karmas do -- they are all basically "specialty" boards with a specific purpose in mind.
Ask any aspiring Hip-Hop artist what to buy and they will tell you "Triton" without hesitation. Years ago, the Roland TR808 drum machine redefined the age of mechanical drums with it's electronic sound that is still sought after today. It was the defining tone of early rap and is STILL used on many recordings. The funny thing is - Roland was trying to make an acoustic sound, but technology was still in it's infancy, and refused to cooperate ! We learned to love the sound as a new creation -- same as the key click on the B3 - another FAULT that became a standard of excellence!

Please DO NOT listen to the rambling of the ignorant when this noble profession is challenged! Today's professional musician needs to be a chameleon, and unless you can change with the times - you will not make it in this difficult and rewarding profession. A "PRO" player can satisfy the crowd, set a pace in the room, present a personality that can really be "felt" with the music -- all these things have NOTHING to do with the instrument used. I appreciate useful features that enhance my performances, but the real "bread & butter" of the art comes from HOW you play the crowd! Sure, you need to play your instrument well, but the true connection to the audience is NEVER one sided. The heart and soul of the performer needs to come through every show, and if it doesn't -- all the chops in the world will not make a successful show.

So please -- don't categorize me with the "Korg Pros" or the "Roland Pros" or any OTHER kind of pro.

I'm an entertainer, a musician, and a fan of music.

I am a professional by definition.

I support my family and sustain my emotional drive with music.

There are NO rules for my job - I set the pace, the tunes, the price and the mood.

Being a PRO does not, and WILL NEVER be defined by what I own.

If you think that money can buy talent, you are probably not in the minority -- but you are SADLY misguided, my sad friend. Do us all a favor -- and go play your Korg....just don't expect us to listen.

We have work to do........
That's what pros do.
We work.
Nuff said.
_________________________
Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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#125986 - 12/24/01 10:56 AM Re: If you were to pick 2..., which ones?
shiral Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/01
Posts: 146
Loc: IL, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Octave8:

.....If I want to find out more about a new Keyboard I will avoid reading on forums that lean towards "biasness"


O8, I am not sure if you mean this forum is biased towards a particular brand/model of arrangers; at least that's what I thought you meant. Each member might have a biasness towards one brand or a model, but the brands/models used by the members are so diverse among them that, as a whole, I think this is very close to being an unbiased sample.

Quote:

- because all you are doing is fooling yourself into thinking "you" have the best product on the market.


I own a PA80, but I think it is NOT the best product in the market.

Quote:

I've heard great comments on the PA80 for example, on other forums, but not so much here (by comparison) That's probrably because its a KORG - and KORG - with its Triton engine will appeal more to most "Pro" players than "PSR" keyboards - which people see as "Cheesy".

O8



The way I see it, having good hardware and software/data related to synthesis in an arranger is sort of like having good instruments in your band. Having good control software and data related to the automation in your arranger is kind of like having good players backing you. If your arranger has the former category well designed and implemented, but not the latter, then it will sound like bad performers playing good instruments.

For example, you play saxophone on the PA80 and you have to play the harmonica soon after that. After the last note on the sax, if you switch to harmonica using performances or STS, the sax stops abruptly. Does the sax player have to mute his or her instrument because harmonica player is about to begin playing ? harmonica player has not even started playing! On a Yamaha, after I play the last note on SAX, I would hold the note down, and switch to the harmonica (I can use OTS). Then press the sustain pedal down and start playing the harmonica and release the pedal soon before I hit the second note on it. This way I can avoid the unwanted gap between the two instruments. On PA80, it is just like having great sounding sax and a harmonica and having a stage-frightened sax player who gets confused and stopped playing because the harmonica player got ready to play it. I don't think this behavior is appealing to an arranger keyboard player.

If I just wanted the Triton sounds I would buy a Triton. But from an arranger I expect good arranger features as well.

Also, play an accomponiment on PA80 and hit the Break button. How pro sounding is that ?

These are just examples of PA80's bad software design decisions.

BTW, I get confused all the time as to who a pro is. Is it one who makes a living out of it, one who places oneself above the others, or one who doesn't play arranger keyboards ?

Shiral


[This message has been edited by shiral (edited 12-24-2001).]

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#125987 - 12/26/01 03:54 PM Re: If you were to pick 2..., which ones?
Stevizard Offline
Member

Registered: 01/30/00
Posts: 367
Loc: Indianapolis, IN, USA
Dear 08,

I bought a Korg Triton Pro with SCSI and BOSS options when as soon as it came out on the market. I played it for two or three weeks, then took it back and got a Yamaha PSR9000 instead. I kept the PSR9000 until the 9000PRO came out, then I bought the 9000PRO. So, I've been playing a 9000 series Yamaha for over two years now, and I'M STILL SATISFIED. I played in bands for 15 years (maybe more) and I do know what a sax, oboe, guitar, string section, drum set, etc. are supposed to sound like. I'd love to earn a living playing professionally but I make too much money with technical writing to change now (perhaps when I retire).

Korgs are screen-surfers, and until they get away from having every setting buried under layer-after-layer of screens, I won't even consider buying Korg. The Triton has some great sounds (but not all of them are great, some aren't even good). Korg keyboards have always had super string sounds but the 9000PRO does too, and I can edit them QUICKLY to my liking. I could probably try 10 to 15 variations of a string sound on my 9000PRO while your surfing screens on the Korg to try your first modification.

The Triton is a great studio piece but it's not very useful for REAL "LIVE" PROS like DonM, Uncle Dave, Scottyee, and Frank, who may need to change something on the "fly" during a performance. So, I have a question,

"IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO EARNS THEIR LIVING PLAYING A TRITON?

If so, I'd certainly like to read your opinion on this topic. But until then, give 'em heck, Uncle Dave.

Steve
_________________________
Some see, some don't, some will, some won't

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#125988 - 12/27/01 05:25 AM Re: If you were to pick 2..., which ones?
frankieve Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/24/99
Posts: 1654
Loc: Milford, CT, USA
I have a Triton and you are exactly right.

I need to spend alot of time programming to get the sounds and effects the way I like it, them group the sounds so I can easily access them. I find the Triton sounds are very close to being perfect for recording type situations, ( as long as you don't need the piano sound ). Which brings me to another point, this is supposed to be the high end of sound, and almost any GM sound module has a better piano.

Roland on the other hand, has great sounds when sequenced together or arranged.
Thier solo sounds seem to get a little thin in the mix, o well.

I just wanted to know which of the 2 would be most liked, I didn't mean to start a civil war.

Don't put me in charge of the button
_________________________
www.AudioworksCT.com

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#125989 - 12/27/01 08:06 PM Re: If you were to pick 2..., which ones?
Octave8 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/02/01
Posts: 95
If we are talking Lounge music, entertaining in Church, elderly homes etc, then yes, The Yamaha 9000 (or any top arranger for that matter) will suffice more than a Korg Triton, or most Pro keyboards for that matter. It was the response by the man I "Quoted" that thought the PSR keyboards were cheesy, and had nothing to offer him. I don't totally agree with him fully. There is a trade-off somewhere you know.

As for "Earning a living from the Triton", well, there will be no one out there making a living just from this keyboard alone (might be exceptions I don't know), but will be a blend of keyboards/Module like a Triton, XV5080 module, Roland A90/FP3 Controller for example - with "External" amplification of course. The End result will be a more Pro sound than a Single Arranger - no bones about it, even if portability isn't the word of the day

As a Single Keyboard - and NOTHING ELSE WHATSOEVER for creating a polished performance, You’re looking Yamaha 9000, Technics KN5000/6000, Solton SD1(with Ex/Amp), Korg PA80 etc. You will get a good sound with these keyboards, and for portability, can't be beaten. However, if you want a little extra for making a more Professional sound, a few add-ons may be required, but only if "YOU" need them.

A Great Set-up for me (for example) would be a Top Arranger, A Top Synth, And a Stage Piano, with the necessary amplification/out-board(s) etc. On the other hand, if you can make great music with a $1000 Keyboard like a Yamaha PSR2000 and nothing else - and be happy with it, then enjoy!

O8

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#125990 - 12/27/01 09:51 PM Re: If you were to pick 2..., which ones?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10899
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
O8,
I apologize - I thought that quote was from you. My expertise lies in performing full time at a variety of venues about 320-350 times a year. This is why size, weight, quick setups, etc., are of MAJOR importance. In my ideal set up, I'd have my 88 key stage piano (Roland FP3), my Hammond XK2 organ, and my 9000pro on the top of the stack. My laptop at the side -- a pair of Mackie 450's with the powered sub they make (100 lbs aaaaagh)and an outboard harmonizer.
This is only a setup for a dream world -- it's totally impractical for most of my work, and takes too long to set up, transport and is too bulky on stage. Today's working musician has to be mobile, compact and versatile, and that's where a kb like the 9kpro really shines. It has just about everything you need in one tidy package, with VERY little compromise in sound. The acoustic piano is awesome, the digital organs are wonderful and the solo wind sounds are amazing.
There are many top end units that offer some of these same advantages, but few have as many bells and useful whistles as the Yamaha.
Feature for feature -- the Yamaha lineup is tough to beat. Of all the high priced offerings this year -- the 9kpro and the SD1 are the only two that have a good kb feel to them. I worry about the psr2k holding up to the rigors of the road. Time will tell, but I have serious doubts about this.
I have been using a psr2k for about a 5 or 6 weeks now, and it really does a great job for what it is. It's reasonably priced, light weight, loaded with features and has a better than average sound system that serves as a great stage monitor, or main system for tiny rooms such as nursing homes or cocktail parties.
I am one player that will never be totally "in love" with any keyboard, but until someone makes the board of my dreams - this 2k is gonna be at my side. The plain truth is - this sucker works. I need that.
_________________________
Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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#125991 - 12/29/01 10:27 AM Re: If you were to pick 2..., which ones?
frankieve Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/24/99
Posts: 1654
Loc: Milford, CT, USA
So,..... which 2?
_________________________
www.AudioworksCT.com

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