If you were to pick 2..., which ones?

9000PRo
VA-7
SD-1
PA-80.

Need, the ability for instant fast search for midi file playback.
Very good midi file playback sound.
Ability for a one man type show, not both but at least one for that.
Ease of use.
Overall quality and realibilty

thanks for the support.

only 88 post, i feel so pure, like a virgin

Quick search of midi file and playback:
1)SD1
2)9000Pro
3)VA7
4)PA80
However, even though I've ranked them in what I think is the fastest to slowest, the difference between all 4 of these is very small. They are all very good for speed.
In sounds,
1)SD1
2)VA7
3)PA80
4)9000Pro
Again, the difference is very slight between the 4.
In other catagories, such as style, user friendliness, effects, etc. the orders would also change, but I'm only evaluating what you have asked for.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

I do find it intriguing that people are still trying to decide which keyboard is #1, #2, #3 and so on . . .

Many of the "pros" that earn their living playing keyboard have switched to the Yamaha 9000PRO or other Yamaha product. Yeah, everyone knows I love my 9000PRO, and am a bit biased but when I see people like Scottyee and Uncle Dave switching to Yamaha for live performances, it does make me think that I've made a wise choice. George, you're as biased in favor of Ketron as I am with Yamaha. Frank, go with your gut.

Steve

Steve,
I really don't think I'm so "biased" in favor of the SD1. I mentioned in my post that in evaluating only these two catagories, I would rank them in such an order. As to panel sounds, quality control, effects, user friendliness, etc. I would not have the same order of abilities. I think I have shown over the years that I recommend many different keyboards to members of this forum to fit their needs. I think in reviewing my posts over the years you would have to agree I try to show no bias in my opinions. I do however, try to answer questions with as much thought as possible to help make the decesion process a bit easier. I think all you readers know I carry in my store most of the keyboards we talk about on this forum.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene

Thanks guys,

Also please no fighting, I wish I could be able to play both . but no store within 30 miles of me has both in stock. Actually i don't even know where I could fing a SD1 to play.

I like the idea that Solton is a company that only makes this kind of product, and can put everything in to it.

Then again Yamaha does have the money behind it to get it right.


signed confused

Who knows......
Maybe the answer to your questions would
be Technics?
Why not tell some dealers to start support
that brand too, maybe many keyboardusers who
never tried any of the brilliant KN keyboards
would be surprised by the quality and user-
friendlyness etc.
Maybe we are spoiled here in my area, when I
go to town, I find two dealers within a 500m.
cirkle, and then most all brands are covered
The big problem is to find time enough to try
out all this great stuff.....
GJ

Frank,
It will come down to ease of use vs. cutting edge sounds. I believe the SD1 has a slight edge in the sound dept, but the operating system is way behind the brilliant simplicity of the 9kpro. In addition to simplicity, Yamaha has added some "spice" that the SD1 doesnot have - music finder, OTS, multi pads (correct me if I'm wrong .... SD1 does not have those)
The drum patterns on the 9k are simpler, yes - but SOOO musical and logical in progression. I appreciate the Q&A session, but these two kb's are so expensive - you really NEED to have alot of hands on time to make this desision. I was pre-sold on the SD1 in the store, and after the first set on the job .... I put it right back in the box. I could tell that it would not work well for me. Take a trip wherever you need to, but play the heck out of them both first.

George - I don't think you are biased in ANY way ! YOu like what you like (just like all of us) but you tell it like it is when asked. An informed preference is NOT bias. Keep up the good work!

After reading the title of this post again .... I'm thinking - why would anyone really want two (or more ) arrangers? I have a lot of gear in my studio, but they all serve a specific purpose that the others cannot.
I have the 9kpro as my main compositional/recording kb.
I have a Roland FP3 piano, because of the 88 keys and real piano action - mostly for clients that like to record on acoustic pianos.
I have the hammond XK2 organ - this is an indulgence because I got a great trade in deal on it. I LOVE the drawbars and leslie, and even if it's only for me - it's great to have in the studio.
The PSR2k is just for live work - it stays in my car all the time.. ready to go to work.
Lastly, there is "Old Faithfull" the i5S, just incase I need two setups on the same gig (happens a lot when cocktails are in a different room than the dancing)

If I ever get really satisfied with anything again - I'll get two, so one stays at home and one travels in the car. That way - I am not confused by which number registration, which organ patch etc....is which. I love simplicity. So far the Yamahas are close enough in design that I am in the comfort zone with them both, and I really only keep the Korg as an emergency backup.

Why do some of you feel the need to have several of the same kind of toy/tool in your setups? I find that I make better music when I'm NOT learning a new system or patch list. Isn't it confusing to have 3 or 4 of the arrangers on hand at once? Just curious....

Dave, you know, of course, that Frank has the PA80 you sold me. Maybe he is torn between its great features, and a couple of its drawbacks.
I would still have it if the vocal harmonizer was fully developed, or if I could afford to keep it until the OS was upgraded. I missed the ease of operation of the Yamahas but enjoyed the excellent drum sounds.
I have noticed though, that the PSR2000 drums sound more alive when playing the CVP styles. Maybe Yamaha is catching on.
DonM

Since we are letting it all hang out.

In the current band, we play a set which could include a couple of dance midi file playbacks, some arranger type assisted songs, and then songs where I play bass with my left hand and with the right I would be doing solo lines, string pads, and what have you.

I also mix the band as well. So for me to have 2 arrangers would help me in having the ability to have any keyboard at any time do any of the above mentioned.

Plus I figure why can't keyboard companies listen to the owners and manufacture their keyboards to our specs!!!

Amen

Makes sense to me, Frank.
I guess if they made the perfect keyboard, there wouldn't be a reason to get a new one every year or so, though.
Don

Or a reason for this forum

As the classic Marvin Gaye tune says:

One can have a dream, baby
Two can make that dream so real
One can talk about bein' in love
Two can say how it really feels
One can wish upon a star
Two can make that wish come true, yeah
One can stand alone in the dark
Two can make the light shine through

It takes two, baby
It takes two, baby
To make a dream come true, just takes two!

* Yamaha PSR2000
* Technics KN5000

I understand fully the perspective of George Kay. Live performers embracing any keyboard cannot be the measure of the best keyboard for very simple reasons. I have been reading the posts of Uncle Dave and others and I have all respect for them and for what they do. But I believe they have totally different needs than other musicians like myself. For me, I need a keyboard that allows me to do everything and control everything EVEN if there is huge learning curve at the beginning. For me I embrace my keyboard until it dies. For them, they are willing to switch keyboard every six months, their professional careers does not allow them to spend the time to program a style from scratch or to adjust the velocity of a particular note for a song on the sequencer. They need something to do the best job right away. They cannot afford to spend six months to learn a keyboard

So when George Kay ranks SD1 to be the best... he is using the absolute scale regardless of the time to learn the keyboard. So I always say what is best really depends on what is IMPORTANT FOR YOU. What you regard as best. For me, Sk880 is the best now because it has some features that other do not have that I deem very important....although.....others may beat it in other features such as sounds...

Just want to give my two cents worth.

When I went to George Kay to pick up a KB, he had just gotten the SD1 in and was very excited about it.

After listening shortly to my needs, he went straight to the Pro, and with an incredible enthusiasm demoed it for me. He never mentioned the SD1 once (even though he would have if I had asked for it).

I can surely say from my own experience that George is a great guy that listens to the consumers needs without trying to sell them something.

That's the reason why I bought my Pro from him and will buy from him again.

Eric

P.S. Thanks for the pedal George. just got here in time.

Scott,
I thought you were about to sell your KN 5000...
Frank, do you still have the VA 7 you bought from Uncle Dave besides the PA 80 you bought from DonM?
In this case I would say that you are more than strong in the style department and I would go for the 9000 Pro, for its ease of use, quality of sounds and reliability; if you, on the other hand, made the BIG mistake of selling your VA 7, then I would go for the SD1, for the quality of its styles. In either case, I would say that you don't need the PA 80.
Not very diplomatic, maybe, but that's just my opinion...

I still have the VA7, and probably will keep it. I'm actually looking most likely to replace the PA 80

thanks.

PS \

Everyone here always gives the best advice, especially George, Don and all the others. I will never buy on pressure, only when my ears, eyes, and pocket can agree

thanks again

I know I am kind of new here, but I see different draw backs from different keyboards.
Is this the reason for picking 2 keyboards?

Am I being a bit "green" by waiting to see if maybe, just maybe and let me say again maybe the General Music "Genesys" will be the first in a line of keyboards from all the manufacturers that will enable one keyboard to reasonably satisfy us keyboard arranger folks?

It could even cost double the amount (if you looking to buy two high end arrangers), but issue is one man/woman... one arranger?

We put a man on the moon almpost 40 years ago, can shoot a missle from a plane to a fox hole, and put a plastic heart in a human and we can't get a satisfactory keyboard arranger?

Thanks for letting me air. I too want the sound of a PA80, Double inputs of the PA80, O/S of the 9000Pro etc.... and it looks like General Music (odd man out here no the forum) is at least talking about it.

Cheer and great holidays to all
tgalf

I Totaly agree with SK880.

Everybody has different wishes and needs.
I personally don't mind a steep and long learning curve, i love the technology and a Kb can not have enough buttons and functions.

Weight is no problem since I just play at home. I like to have at least 76 keys and the must feel good. (thinking about adding a stage piano to my setup, just for the keys). I do not need internal speakers since they are rarely any good anyhow.

Again, no offense, just my personal opinion.
This is why there is no ideal, or "Best" keyboard.

Wow, talk about slowly getting into a whole other conversation.

Anyway thanks for all the input. Just trying to decide between a 9000pro or SD1

If you can wait a month or so, I strongly urge you to consider the new GEM keyboard Genesis

All this discussion only shows how pasionate we all are about our arranger K/boards. I've spent the last 5 days getting familiar with my new PSR2000 and one thing it excells on it's how "seamless" and fast it does what you tell it to do. Sounds I give it a B+ (I am terribly spoild by the X1), saving registrations I give it a C- since after 5 days of trying to figure it out, I still don't have the complete picture but I am not giving up and won't mind spending the time as long as the features are there. I think this machine is worth keeping for a few years. Sorry I went off the subject as well.
Happy Holidays
Mario

George Kaye

You mentioned a few other categories that you did not rate the kb's on - such as user friendliness, styles, - do you have a rating for these or other categories you think are important for those kb's and where does the kn6500 technics fit into things?

MH

Mike,
Other catagories would be sequencer abilities, button layout , digital effects processor power, rear jack outputs and inputs, etc.
I would rate the SD1 very low in the button pushing department after getting used to the X1 for example. I don't like where Solton has put the buttons on the SD1. My opinion for fast calling up of midi files and tweaking the sounds of midi files has always made me choose the Solton products over anyone elses. After using all the other models in my store, I would still favor these products for how fast and easy you can call up, play and change things quickly on the fly and then just push one button to store these changes. I would rate the Generalmusic WK6 and WK8 as having the most complete 32 track sequencers of any of the best arranger or pro keyboards. There sequencer offers a great screen, all types of record options and microscope edit functions.
I like the number and the quality of the effects processors best on the Yamaha keyboards over all the others. I love that the effects are stored with the sound and that when you change to any sound, the effects move with them. I dislike the multieffect the most on the Roland VA products because Roland didn't use very smart choices in their preset sounds. However, when I turn this effect off manually, I like not using the master effect completely and then the sounds sound much more realistic in the brass and woodwind catagorys. I can also pick one effect in this mode and just adjust the amount I want to use with all the sounds rather than having the multi change with each new sound I call up.
I really like the styles in the PA80 Korg but I don't love the way their files are handled in the hard drive directories. I get a little confused when selecting, opening, loading and closing directories. Being a Mac person and not a PC person, I find this less user friendly.
I love using the Roland touch screen but I wish there were dedicated buttons for selecting on and off of the 4 parts on the VA7 without having to use the touch screen.
As you can see, my list of favorites change within the catagorys that I am evaluating for different reasons. One day I love the features or sounds of one keyboard, and the next time I'm demoing a different keyboard in my store I really like the features of another.
You know, just today I receive a phone call from a customer in San Fransicso who bought an X1oriental keyboard from me a few days ago. He was like a kid in a toy store.....he just loved his new keyboard. He had never played or tried an X1 but heard from friends and through internet discussions how great this product is. Did he know this product had been available for over 2 years now? Not until he called me. Did he think this was a dated keyboard? Not at all and I played some of the styles for him over the phone....I showed him my knowledge and how much joy he'd get from owning a keyboard like this and he is thrilled. Had he asked me my opinion on the Yamaha 9000 pro or the PA80, he would have gotten an equally exited demonstation and overview from me. Every keyboard is a winner out there. Some are just better doing certain things for some people over others.
It's why i love what I do so much! Keep those new models coming all you manufactures so I can get my hands on them and give you all my impressions and reports. If all I had coming in were Motifs, Tritons, Fantoms, etc. I'd probably want to retire at 51 years of age!
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

51 years!!!, You type like its only been 50..

Side question, where there electronics 51 years ago? Just kidding,

You nailed those keyboards right on. You should consult for a manufacture.

George -
Thanks ever so much for sharing a perspective on why different functional characteristics of the manufacturers makes it impossible to have a one shoe fits all approach to these kb's. For myself and what I have seen of GEM - WK products -I like their sequencing enough to wait the release of Genesys to see if their sounds are going to be improved. For my music - the intertwining of sequenced rubato sections and full on live arranger sections during one song is important. I am trying to rate my arranger choice on the following:
1. ease of live use (variation, fill,)
2. ease of toggling between song and style
3. quick access to song data base
4. weight around 30 pounds
5. lushness and fullness of strings and pads
6. sequencer simplicity
7. wide variety of jazz percussion styles
8. video out/notation software interface

thanks for sharing
Mike H

George: You didn't answer the question of where does the KN-6500 fit in. I know you are not a dealor, and that is a crying shame. We all know what a great person and salesman you are. I suspect you feel the Technics is to high priced or maybe you can't get together with Panasonic. In any event, I would love to here you critic a KN-6500 after you knew as much about it, as you surely do on the products you do carry. ARJ

Arthur,
Last year at the NAMM show I visited the Technics booth and sat down and played the KN6500 for over an hour. My impression was much the same as when I played the 5000. I was disappointed with the drum samples as I have always been with technics products and thought the sounds were only fair when it came to brass, saxophones and strings. As to the look of the keyboard it was very good looking but so are many other new keyboards.
As I have often mentioned, my biggest disappointment with technics is within the organization. I don't feel like they do their products justice. Very poor technical support, demanding high prices from their dealer network and an attidtude (which I see at every NAMM show I've attended the past several years) of not really being interested in what they are offering to the music industry. It's as if a staff of Japaneese engineers design this keyboard and then the US team goes and destroys their hard work by not promoting it in a professional way.
This is my take on Technics and why I would not choose to display or sell their keyboards. Even if the next generation keyboards were the best sounding keyboards, I would not consider them in my store unless the company really could convince me they were running their business differently than I now know them as.
By the way, I have always had a similar feeling towards Casio and this past year I decided to give them a chance to show me they've changed. The Rep out here in California happens to be a friend from the industry for many years and I thought "what the heck, I'll give Casio another try". I bought 6 WK1630's and 6 WK1800's because I really think these keyboards have a lot to offer, but, it took almost 2 months to receive my first order and almost 6 months to receive my second. I really have to think long and hard if I want to represent a company like this again.
When I deal with Yamaha, I have the support of a huge company with many friends working to keep me and my customers happy. When I deal with Solton, I have Lou in New York who would do anything to help me out and he has done exactly this time and time again. Korg has a product specialist who I can call on any day and he's either right there or calls me back within the day. Roland, the same thing and Generalmusic, I can call the national sales manager who is also an expert on their products or Chris Anthony who makes the styles and sounds that go into their products and discuss anything i need to within a moments call. This is what I think is missing from Technics and from Casio. They could and should change but I haven't seen any sign of this recently and I don't expect things to change the way they seem to be going.
This was a long answer to your question of how I feel toward the KN6500 and I hope I have expressed myself clearly.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

George Kaye: Thank you Sir for a very honest and sincere answer, you are a credit to your chosen profession. Isn't is amazing
the many controdictions we have to cope with on our journey through life. Example of my
meaning: I have a wonderful sincere and very
large dealor in Grand Rapids, Mich. They handle both Yamaha and Tecknics keyboards.
If he told his experiences dealing with Yamaha to this Forum, it would sound like George Kaye in reverse, trying to understand and do business with Technics. He sells the low end Yamaha line, but does not stock the
PSR 9000, or the Pro. (He is dealor for other brands too) He simply admires the product and business methods of Technics, but
has many problems with Yahama. Actually, the top line Yamies can not be demonstrated or purchased in Grand Rapids (half millon residents, from any of the six dealors in that city. I don't have any axe to grind George, but just find it upsetting the way some businesses are operated today. My dealor in G/R was on the road for Conn Organ Company for 40 years, so he understands the
business, and how it has operated for many many years. Thanks again for your West Coast View Point, and know that I admire and
look forward to your intellegent posts on this forum. May 2002, be good to you. ARJ

George,

OK, I get the point, George, you're not biased but being "biased" isn't all bad. It just means that you like one thing more than another. Remember, I did admit my bias toward Yamaha. Why shouldn't I? After all, it simply means that I'm happy with what I have (at least until the next model arrives).

The local Technics dealer sells Yamaha too but always leads customers away from Yamaha keyboards and goes directly to Technics (unlike the examples given above of what you do). Since I'm in Ohio (3,000 miles from your store) I haven't had the opportunity to talk with you personally (my loss). As I've said a number of times before, if you were anywhere in Ohio I'd be a customer.

When I think of any keyboard being "BEST" I consider every aspect of the keyboard and what I can do with it. Ease of use is extremely important to me as is button layout, screen size, voices, styles, registrations, etc.

A keyboard might have the greatest features in the world but if it's a pain in the *&# to access them, then what good is it? When I add up everything, the 9000PRO is the clear winner for me (not for everyone but for me).

Korg has great sounds but it's a screen-surfer and I hate going from screen to screen (prefer buttons to screen hopping). I know people are going to hate this and I probably shouldn't say it but Technics looks like a toy to me and presentation is important. (Sorry Scott, I know you love Technics - don't hate me for the toy remark I know its a Pro instrument).

Unfortunately, NOBODY in Ohio carries or services Ketron products (another reason I prefer Yamaha). So, I've never seen one.

Frank, do what Uncle Dave says and GO PLAY THEM but DON'T ORDER ANYTHING SIGHT UNSEEN. When I first saw a GEM, I thought it was the most beautiful keyboard ever but when I played it, the layout didn't seem logical to me and was very awkward for me (but others absolutely LOVE it). You're not going to know which is best for you until you get your hands on it.

Sure, I could've given you my version of a feature by feature comparison (I think I did that a long time ago) but it doesn't make any difference what I think - what matters is how the keyboard feels and works for you, and YOU GOTTA PLAY IT to find that out.

Biased and loving it,
Steve

PS. I plan to remain biased until another manufacturer turns my head, then I'll simply change my bias - but I'll still be biased.

Steve,

You get Biased Veiws, Unbiased views. Here is an extract from A Forum Concerning the New PSR 9000 Pro:

Quote:

I agree it's an interesting looking synth.. it's like an s30 crossed with a PSR. The fact that all the patches are categorized as either "Live!" "Cool!" or "Sweet!" would really get to me. I didn't realize it was that expensive.. I guess it's main competitor then is the new Korg Karma, although its feature set is also similar to the GEM Equinox.
I have a feeling (from what I've read) that the Karma's accompaniment stuff is much more creative and less lounge/song oriented than the PSR's, but then again they're not editable, whereas the Yamaha's are. At first I thought the Yamaha was super cheesy, but on second look it has power features and it does sound good. The goosenecks are funny but practical. As I said in the Karma thread I'm reevaluating my hatred of accompaniment/arranger synths and will probably look into these various models a little more seriously this summer.

That was before he heard it, this is what he said after]:

About it sounding good: I take that back - I finished listening to their demos and nearly all of them are in the style that makes me want to puke, that physically make my body sick. Even though I could put a Vl-70 board in that thing I don't think I could stomach the fact that it's made for a lounge keyboard player doing arrangements that make me want to run away. I'm simply not that kind of player, or listener. My second look at the keyboard was more favorable. My third look (or my second hearing) made me sick to my stomach. So now I'll pay little attention to its existence.

Yamaha - a New Bread of Workstation...

You see steve, it is only until he HEARD the Yamaha Pro, that he totally changed his attitude towards it. So contrasting. Cheesy sounds? - well, some of these Pro players are used to there hi-tech gear, that this Yamaha pro probrably does sound Cheesy to him. He Said it looked good, but that doesn't compensate for the poor/cheesy sounds he portrays. As he said, his third listen to it made him want to puke.

Well, it really all depends what type of music you want. If you like "easy going" Lounge music, then you probrably won't like what type of music he like etc.....

If I want to find out more about a new Keyboard I will avoid reading on forums that lean towards "biasness" - because all you are doing is fooling yourself into thinking "you" have the best product on the market. I've heard great comments on the PA80 for example, on other forums, but not so much here (by comparison) That's probrably because its a KORG - and KORG - with its Triton engine will appeal more to most "Pro" players than "PSR" keyboards - which people see as "Cheesy".



O8



[This message has been edited by Octave8 (edited 12-22-2001).]

My quick comment
Overall evaluation:
Ketron SD1:*****
9000 Pro :*****
Korg PA80 :***
VA7/2 :***

Two five stars:SD1, 9000Pro
SD1: The best for voices and style demonstrations and personal ability.
9000Pro: Faaaaar the best for day/day works.
Chico

George, I too visited the Technics booth at the NAMM show (Jan 2001) but came away with an entirely different impression than you. The Technics showroom people (Rocco Ferrante, Chris Halon, etc) were all friendly and took a keen interest in showing me their product line. In contrast to you, I was 'very impressed' with the KN6500's sounds and styles. I feel that Technics styles and sounds really showcase traditional combo jazz, big band, and latin genres; while Solton, Roland, Korg shine in the contemporary pop & rock department. It's really more like comparing apples to oranges. Owning both the Technics KN5000 (predessor to the KN6500/6000) and now the Yamaha PSR2000 too, I can say that they have different strengths. For traditional lounge jazz combo gigs, I prefer the KN5000, but for a more contemporary sound geared to a wider genre of music, the Yamaha wins. I think Technics styles have much better jazz style walking bass lines, but Yamaha utilizes drum 'fill ins' better (fill in better integrated: smoother transitions to variation). I have found that integrating Technics great bass lines with Yamaha's drum patterns/fills produces just the PSR style sound I like. Out of the box, I still prefer the Technics acoustic (steinway) piano for playing (comping & soloing) in arranger KB mode, but after tweaking and layering, an acceptable piano is achieved on the Yamaha PSR2000 as well.

I agree with George that Technics (here in the US) has highly inflated dealer price markups. It's important to point out that even if George Kaye decided he wanted to carry the Technics KN arranger keyboard line, that Technics would not allow him to carry it, because Technics dealer policy (in the US) only permits traditional acoustic piano/organ stores (Colton Piano/Organs, etc). to sell their KN keyboard line.

Though I still think that the Technics KN6500 may be the best sounding top of the line Keyboard arranger for the style of music I love, until Technics USA ammends its' highly restrictive sales policy, its' price will remain overly inflated compared to comparable arranger keyboards out there.

- Scott

OK OK OK ! The gauntlet has been thrown!

I tried NOT to respond to that hogwash that O8 posted, but I just can't listen to this crap anymore.
"PRO" players are the ones making the money, and the hardest working, most versatile players are doing "lounge gigs" (....he said with distain), retirement centers, and private parties. Dance clubs and R&R gigs do not define the players, and jazz cats rarely make any REAL money, until they hit the big time.

I'm sick of the MTV mentality that is brainwashing the players of tomorrow into thinking that ALL guitars are played through Marshal amps, and all KB players need the latest offering from the big three...etc.
There is a sad truth in the world of music that is taking the CREATION of the art OUT of the art form! As sampling, looping and auto stuff becomes more prevalent -- the need for chops, and discipline will disappear. It's almost gone already.

I realize that the psr keyboards have limitations, but no more than the Tritons and Karmas do -- they are all basically "specialty" boards with a specific purpose in mind.
Ask any aspiring Hip-Hop artist what to buy and they will tell you "Triton" without hesitation. Years ago, the Roland TR808 drum machine redefined the age of mechanical drums with it's electronic sound that is still sought after today. It was the defining tone of early rap and is STILL used on many recordings. The funny thing is - Roland was trying to make an acoustic sound, but technology was still in it's infancy, and refused to cooperate ! We learned to love the sound as a new creation -- same as the key click on the B3 - another FAULT that became a standard of excellence!

Please DO NOT listen to the rambling of the ignorant when this noble profession is challenged! Today's professional musician needs to be a chameleon, and unless you can change with the times - you will not make it in this difficult and rewarding profession. A "PRO" player can satisfy the crowd, set a pace in the room, present a personality that can really be "felt" with the music -- all these things have NOTHING to do with the instrument used. I appreciate useful features that enhance my performances, but the real "bread & butter" of the art comes from HOW you play the crowd! Sure, you need to play your instrument well, but the true connection to the audience is NEVER one sided. The heart and soul of the performer needs to come through every show, and if it doesn't -- all the chops in the world will not make a successful show.

So please -- don't categorize me with the "Korg Pros" or the "Roland Pros" or any OTHER kind of pro.

I'm an entertainer, a musician, and a fan of music.

I am a professional by definition.

I support my family and sustain my emotional drive with music.

There are NO rules for my job - I set the pace, the tunes, the price and the mood.

Being a PRO does not, and WILL NEVER be defined by what I own.

If you think that money can buy talent, you are probably not in the minority -- but you are SADLY misguided, my sad friend. Do us all a favor -- and go play your Korg....just don't expect us to listen.

We have work to do........
That's what pros do.
We work.
Nuff said.

O8, I am not sure if you mean this forum is biased towards a particular brand/model of arrangers; at least that's what I thought you meant. Each member might have a biasness towards one brand or a model, but the brands/models used by the members are so diverse among them that, as a whole, I think this is very close to being an unbiased sample.



I own a PA80, but I think it is NOT the best product in the market.




The way I see it, having good hardware and software/data related to synthesis in an arranger is sort of like having good instruments in your band. Having good control software and data related to the automation in your arranger is kind of like having good players backing you. If your arranger has the former category well designed and implemented, but not the latter, then it will sound like bad performers playing good instruments.

For example, you play saxophone on the PA80 and you have to play the harmonica soon after that. After the last note on the sax, if you switch to harmonica using performances or STS, the sax stops abruptly. Does the sax player have to mute his or her instrument because harmonica player is about to begin playing ? harmonica player has not even started playing! On a Yamaha, after I play the last note on SAX, I would hold the note down, and switch to the harmonica (I can use OTS). Then press the sustain pedal down and start playing the harmonica and release the pedal soon before I hit the second note on it. This way I can avoid the unwanted gap between the two instruments. On PA80, it is just like having great sounding sax and a harmonica and having a stage-frightened sax player who gets confused and stopped playing because the harmonica player got ready to play it. I don't think this behavior is appealing to an arranger keyboard player.

If I just wanted the Triton sounds I would buy a Triton. But from an arranger I expect good arranger features as well.

Also, play an accomponiment on PA80 and hit the Break button. How pro sounding is that ?

These are just examples of PA80's bad software design decisions.

BTW, I get confused all the time as to who a pro is. Is it one who makes a living out of it, one who places oneself above the others, or one who doesn't play arranger keyboards ?

Shiral


[This message has been edited by shiral (edited 12-24-2001).]

Dear 08,

I bought a Korg Triton Pro with SCSI and BOSS options when as soon as it came out on the market. I played it for two or three weeks, then took it back and got a Yamaha PSR9000 instead. I kept the PSR9000 until the 9000PRO came out, then I bought the 9000PRO. So, I've been playing a 9000 series Yamaha for over two years now, and I'M STILL SATISFIED. I played in bands for 15 years (maybe more) and I do know what a sax, oboe, guitar, string section, drum set, etc. are supposed to sound like. I'd love to earn a living playing professionally but I make too much money with technical writing to change now (perhaps when I retire).

Korgs are screen-surfers, and until they get away from having every setting buried under layer-after-layer of screens, I won't even consider buying Korg. The Triton has some great sounds (but not all of them are great, some aren't even good). Korg keyboards have always had super string sounds but the 9000PRO does too, and I can edit them QUICKLY to my liking. I could probably try 10 to 15 variations of a string sound on my 9000PRO while your surfing screens on the Korg to try your first modification.

The Triton is a great studio piece but it's not very useful for REAL "LIVE" PROS like DonM, Uncle Dave, Scottyee, and Frank, who may need to change something on the "fly" during a performance. So, I have a question,

"IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO EARNS THEIR LIVING PLAYING A TRITON?

If so, I'd certainly like to read your opinion on this topic. But until then, give 'em heck, Uncle Dave.

Steve

I have a Triton and you are exactly right.

I need to spend alot of time programming to get the sounds and effects the way I like it, them group the sounds so I can easily access them. I find the Triton sounds are very close to being perfect for recording type situations, ( as long as you don't need the piano sound ). Which brings me to another point, this is supposed to be the high end of sound, and almost any GM sound module has a better piano.

Roland on the other hand, has great sounds when sequenced together or arranged.
Thier solo sounds seem to get a little thin in the mix, o well.

I just wanted to know which of the 2 would be most liked, I didn't mean to start a civil war.

Don't put me in charge of the button

If we are talking Lounge music, entertaining in Church, elderly homes etc, then yes, The Yamaha 9000 (or any top arranger for that matter) will suffice more than a Korg Triton, or most Pro keyboards for that matter. It was the response by the man I "Quoted" that thought the PSR keyboards were cheesy, and had nothing to offer him. I don't totally agree with him fully. There is a trade-off somewhere you know.

As for "Earning a living from the Triton", well, there will be no one out there making a living just from this keyboard alone (might be exceptions I don't know), but will be a blend of keyboards/Module like a Triton, XV5080 module, Roland A90/FP3 Controller for example - with "External" amplification of course. The End result will be a more Pro sound than a Single Arranger - no bones about it, even if portability isn't the word of the day

As a Single Keyboard - and NOTHING ELSE WHATSOEVER for creating a polished performance, You’re looking Yamaha 9000, Technics KN5000/6000, Solton SD1(with Ex/Amp), Korg PA80 etc. You will get a good sound with these keyboards, and for portability, can't be beaten. However, if you want a little extra for making a more Professional sound, a few add-ons may be required, but only if "YOU" need them.

A Great Set-up for me (for example) would be a Top Arranger, A Top Synth, And a Stage Piano, with the necessary amplification/out-board(s) etc. On the other hand, if you can make great music with a $1000 Keyboard like a Yamaha PSR2000 and nothing else - and be happy with it, then enjoy!

O8

O8,
I apologize - I thought that quote was from you. My expertise lies in performing full time at a variety of venues about 320-350 times a year. This is why size, weight, quick setups, etc., are of MAJOR importance. In my ideal set up, I'd have my 88 key stage piano (Roland FP3), my Hammond XK2 organ, and my 9000pro on the top of the stack. My laptop at the side -- a pair of Mackie 450's with the powered sub they make (100 lbs aaaaagh)and an outboard harmonizer.
This is only a setup for a dream world -- it's totally impractical for most of my work, and takes too long to set up, transport and is too bulky on stage. Today's working musician has to be mobile, compact and versatile, and that's where a kb like the 9kpro really shines. It has just about everything you need in one tidy package, with VERY little compromise in sound. The acoustic piano is awesome, the digital organs are wonderful and the solo wind sounds are amazing.
There are many top end units that offer some of these same advantages, but few have as many bells and useful whistles as the Yamaha.
Feature for feature -- the Yamaha lineup is tough to beat. Of all the high priced offerings this year -- the 9kpro and the SD1 are the only two that have a good kb feel to them. I worry about the psr2k holding up to the rigors of the road. Time will tell, but I have serious doubts about this.
I have been using a psr2k for about a 5 or 6 weeks now, and it really does a great job for what it is. It's reasonably priced, light weight, loaded with features and has a better than average sound system that serves as a great stage monitor, or main system for tiny rooms such as nursing homes or cocktail parties.
I am one player that will never be totally "in love" with any keyboard, but until someone makes the board of my dreams - this 2k is gonna be at my side. The plain truth is - this sucker works. I need that.

So,..... which 2?

That's easy -
Yamaha 9000pro as the main controller, and a Roland VA (whatever)as a second sound source and smf player. Best sound combo I can think of, with the most versitility and easiest controller options. It also give the on-board monitoring I love so much, and a great vocal processor with harmony.
(Plug the 9k into the VA audio in's)
This will only use a stereo pair of inputs on your mixer/amp too. Compact, laoded with power and all the sounds you'll ever need.
The Yamaha has the modeled organs, and wonderful EP's, and the Roland GS2 acoustic piano is a dream.
So - keep your VA7, and sell the PA80 to get a 9kpro - I hear the price just dropped a bit - you'll probably do pretty well on a swap-out. Good luck, Frank !

Wow: 9000 pro sounds plus VA 7 sounds and styles.....Who could ask for anything more?
I have a question, though: why a VA 7 owner would spend all that money for a 9000 pro when he can have the same sounds and better styles (and a dinamic arranger too, if I am not mistaken) for half the money in a PSR 2000?
Answer: far better keyboard action, hard disk, sampling ability....
Counter-answer: does Frankie need all these nice features?
The answer, my friend....

. . .is blowin' in the wind, the answer is blowin' in the wind.
Love it!
DonM

Add to that - 76 keys, expansion slots, better control of intros, endings & fills, sczi backup.... there are two many reasons why the 9k is better than the 2k UNLESS you have to carry it around everyday.

To answer your question has 2 parts

part 1: I've learned in the past that no matter how much I consider buying something, and how I plan to use this thing, its easier to buy the top model, ex, at first you may think " I don't need a hard drive, or 76 keys? I only have 10 fingers. But as you progressin music and life things change, so is it better to have the most options available to you in the begining, or have you grow out of a keyboard, haveto sell it, take a loss, then buy the higher model later spending alot mor time and money in the long run.

Part 2 : What if I am on the way to a gig, and I'm crossing the road, and someone who has too much equipment in a very small car, can't see me and kills me dead. At least I had cool keyboards to play with before I pass.

Remember kids these are the feelings of Frank, not of everyone else.

Later

See, that's where we differ. If someone kills me dead on the road, at least my 9kpro will be safe at home and only this little 2k will perish with me.
That may be my last bad joke of the year!

Well, I can tell that we are on a cheerful mood in this very last day of the year!
Frank, I hope that 2002 will bring you a lot of cool keyboards.
Dave, I hope that you will keep your PSR 2000 at least until the end of January (but I wouldn't bet a dime.....)
Happy New Year, everybody!
Andrea

Smart man ..... keep your money in your pocket! A lot of folks lost money on my Eagles yesterday !

So let me see if I got this right?

9000Pro: Ease of use is top notch, sounds are good, some are great. SMF playback is ok, it uses it XG voices instead of its better sounds. Vocalizer board is also good.
Styles are more on the Rolandish, laid back, useable but not very busy.

SD1: not as streamlined in the OP system, not as bad as Korg, close to Roland, not as easy as Yamaha. SMF very good, uses top voices, and has a better SMF find system. Vocalizer board is decent. Styles are probably on the top list, very busy, but cna't certain varations, take it down a bit.

Frank,
if Ketron fixes some of the SD1's bugs (especially the noisy DSP but also the OS, which is non as intuitive as Yamaha's... and that's a BIG understatement...) I would consider it as a buy.
The styles are very good, probably the best as far as "musical usefulness" goes.
The SD1 sounds are impressive too, even if probably a bit over-equalized in the midrange area.
The 9000 pro seems a very safe buy (you can't go wrong with it), except that probably it is at the end of its commercial life and Yamaha is squeezing the last drops out of it, pouring many of its features in the 2000 and so preparing the advent of their next top of the line model.
I love the Roland sounds and styles too much (maybe it's just a matter of being accustomed to them) and will part with my VA 7 only when the next "top" Roland will come out.
A line-up of VA 7, 9000 pro and SD1 would be terrific indeed, but choosing between 9000 pro and SD1 it's like choosing between rationality (9000 pro) and passion (SD1)....frankly, I am glad that I haven't to do that...
Regards,
Andrea

>>choosing between 9000 pro and SD1 it's like choosing between rationality (9000 pro) and passion (SD1)....<<

I see it more as choosing between a Volvo or a Caddilac. The Volvo is the smart, sensible, durable choice, and the Caddy is full of fluff and fashion... only the Caddy has a new engine that hasn't been proven yet, and is harder to park because of the length of the hood. ( )

There are a lot worse things than having to make THAT choice.

[This message has been edited by Uncle Dave (edited 01-01-2002).]

Well, this "what's the best" discussions is
always something, eh?
I think I'll go for a "Royal Salute 21 years
old" as no.1, and for no2., I really dont know.
Maybe clean Norwegian water in case of being
too thirsty the next day....
Happy new year.
GJ

Frank, I know how you feel. I am in the same situation as you...after Two Keyboards. However, I am not going to get TWO Arrangers, but an Arranger, AND a Synth/Workstation/Stage Piano like: Kn6500/Yamaha 9000/PA80(?), And a Synth: Karma, Triton, "Fantom", RD700/XV-88, XP30, XP80, YAMAHA S80, MOTIF, Triton LE.......
Err, that’s right, I am stuck for choice too Frank! A Synth Arranger Combination could be awesome if i get it right, and Uncle Dave has been advising me on these matters on General forum .

Dave, the Roland Fantom really appeals to me for some reason I don't know. Maybe its because its the 76 keys - yep – got to be that I think. I only wish people on other forums didn't keep putting this Fantom "Down", and keep saying "Another Roland Re-hash etc". I don't take all their comments too seriously, but they get me thinking a little. The Fantom is said to be a Roland XV5080 Synth Engine, well, if this is true, then it will be a very good Synth I would say, with the ability to put JV & XV cards in (unlike the RD700).
I would love to hear some positive comments on the Fantom, as I don't believe its as bad as people are saying. Maybe people just wanted more from a new Roland product.

I've narrowed down the arranger to TWO now: 9000 Pro, and Kn6500, So choosing the Synth may be more of a difficult decision. I would like to know, for example, if the Roland Fantom shares the same Piano's as the Stage ones (or there abouts anyway). As for TWO arraners, I'm not sure how I would go on integtrating a Kn6500 with a Yamaha 9000/Solton etc. I think one TOP arranger is enough to be honest, with a added synth (a good one) or something to go along side it. Rumours of a "Triton Studio" coming out at NAMM sounds good mind you

Happy new year folks

NR



[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited 01-01-2002).]

The best way ( I think ) to use two arrangers at the same time is to NOT midi them together. Let each one be in control of it's own destiny, and set them up to give you more variation than one can provide.
I only want to have ONE set of controls, rhythm choices, etc.... but I wouldn't mind having two playing surfaces every now and again. Most (99%) of my work only requires one kb, and two would be a deterrent, but there are those rare instances that can really be "punched up" with a dedicated piano or organ. ( my taste )
If I had to narrow it down -
Top two choices for high end arranger would be 9kpro and kn6500.
Top two dedicated synth/piano would be -
RD700 and hmmmm....... can't think of a better 88 key choice at the moment.
(although I LOVE my FP3 for lots of reasons that I've stated before)

Well I decided to try the SD-1, I'll let you know what I think